2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

[Raellus]

Here's my take on the 2nd MarDiv's role in the XI Corps summer offensive:

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...baltic+marines

[LAW0306]

Give me a chance here leg. Last time I presented a History and order of Battle for Marines( add to RFD source book 2007)...Frank Frey said it was now considered Cannon by him. It will make sense trust me on this. Might add a flavor that you might like.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.

I have though about a group of PC's who would scout wrecks along the coast as a possiblity of expanding OP Omega, though about it as naval adventure?

[Legbreaker]

I'm not too sure ships could be salvaged in T2K - it's a hard enough job even with today's resources.
Stripping them down on the other hand for parts....
In my previous post I was thinking more long term, a year or two perhaps, or that the ship(s) in question were beached close to the necessary industrial facilities.
Basically though I'm not even convinced myself it's much of a viable idea.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I've got in mind a heavily damaged CV beaching or deliberately running aground near Key West NAS due to severe damage during a brawl with Soviet and Cuban land-based ships and ASMs late in 2000. The C2s, E2s and helos can all take off and make it to KW, but the jets are either going to have to be brought over by barge someday or just left there and slowly disassembled for spares for Homestead.

The ship's salvageability (that is, how much can be removed and used ashore) will become a huge asset for Key West. Hell, if it's a nuke and the reactors are stable, run power lines.

In fact that's probably what I'll write up.

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

That would be huge. I was musing about a 2001 campaign in the Gulf, with a Navy center, and that would make a terrific hub for it.

If I have some free time I'll start it up tonight.

(edit: I did not, so, tomorrow perhaps)

[Abbott Shaull]

With the Marine Amphib Corps and it remains of the MEF, I am sure in the Middle East and Korea, the excess Naval Personnel who weren't need to keep what left of their Services operating would be sent to the 'local' Marine Infantry School to a point where you might see a Provisional Naval Infantry unit or two...lol

[Legbreaker]

Undoubtedly, however my thoughts are these excess naval personel would be used as replacements for existing Marine units rather than create new Naval formations. The sailors may not like it, the marines may not like it, but it makes more sense than trying to build units from scratch which don't have any experienced NCOs or Officers.

[HorseSoldier]

A lot of USN personnel would have skills that translated relatively well into logistics/support units in the USMC, which would allow Marine mechanics and such to push forward as casualty replacements. Might be initial attempts to keep things sort of discrete, but circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

circa 2000 I'd picture the rear echelon of the Marine divisions as just being a jumble of sailors and marines filling out necessary support functions as best they can. Probably with some drafts of USN volunteers (or "volun-tolds") pushed into front line units as well as replacement riflemen or whatever really late in the war.

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I agree, but I think not just some being pushed up as combat arms replacements, but quite a lot. With most of the true marines dead, captured, deserted, separated, etc, I can see a lot of navy guys needing to be put out on the line - earlier than 2000 too.

Checking the American Combat Vehicle Handbook (2.0) the Cadet Brigade of USAF trainees in January 1988 (I assume this is a typo and should read 1998). It is noted that this is theoretically an Air Force unit that is under army control. This would imply that the other services are being weeded of excess personnel earlier than we thought.

[Legbreaker]

We know that in mid to late 1997 Nato was being pushed back across Europe almost in a rout. We know from a variety of sources that they suffered extensive loss of manpower and equipment during this period. We know they used scorched earth tactics as they retreated.
We also know that the "last major naval fleet in being" was destroyed in June 1997 and that air power on both sides coped an absolute hammering in the early stages of the war.
Given that and the commencement of nuclear attacks in approximately July 1997, it's certainly no surprise that naval and air personnel were transfered/reorganised into ground assets.

[Legbreaker]

What follows is the result of about 200 hours of research, organisation, reorganisation, hair pulling and culling to get down to the 4,000 men listed as of the 1st of July 2000. There's still about another 50 hours of work to go before I'm happy.

Many units were cut completely and personnel redistributed to other units. A vast number of supporting units simply disappear as they're no longer needed (no supplies coming from the US for them to deal with). Many of the marines would have to take on the responsibilities of 2 or even 3 men (or more) in the prewar organisation - good thing the 2000 version of the 2nd Marines is a mere shadow of it's former power.

It's been a real shock to see just how many men are in the background - the 2nd Force Service Support Group has an authorised strength of approximately 7,600, and they don't even get CLOSE to the front lines!

2nd MARDIV
HQ Battalion 100 men

2nd Intelligence Battalion 40 men, 1x FQM-151 Pointer UAV
Headquarters Company
Counterintelligence/Human Intelligence Company (CI/HUMINT Coy)
Production & Analysis Company
Counterintelligence Support Company

8th Communication Battalion (inc. surviving personnel from 2nd Radio Battalion) 60 men

2nd Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Coy – disbanded. Surviving personnel transferred 10th Regiment

2nd Tank Battalion 80 men, 8 M1

2nd Light Armoured Recon Battalion 152 men total
H&S Company (Striker) 1x M-1042A2 Humvee, 1x M-939 5 tonne truck, 10 men
Alpha Company (Apache) 8x LAV-25, 48 men
Bravo Company (Black Knights) 7x LAV-25, 47 men
Charlie Company (Gunfighters) 7x LAV-25, 47 men

2nd Recon Battalion 160 men
H&S Company 20, M-1042A2
Alpha Company 40
Bravo Company 40
Charlie Company 40
Force Reconnaissance Company 20, LKW Wolf IFAV, M-1044A1 Humvee

2nd Combat Engineer Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Service Company (including surviving Chemical Biological Incident Response Force members) 40 men, M-1042A2,
Engineer Support Company 40
Alpha Company 40
Mobility Assault Company 40
Route Clearance Company 40

2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion (218 men, 40 AAVP-7A1, 2 AAVC-7A1, 2 AAVR-7A1)
Headquarters & Services Company 4+20 men, 2 AAVP-7A1
Alpha Company
HQ sec 2+14, 2xAAVC-7A1
Comms sec 7 (rides with HQ sec)
Assault amphibian general support section 13 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Command & control section 12 men, 1 AAVP-7A1
Maintenance section 1+28 men, 2 AAVR-7A1 ARV
Assault amphibian vehicle platoons x3 1+38 men, 12 AAVP-7A1
Other companies disbanded

2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion 42 men
Battalion Headquarters
HQ section 2+1, M-1042A2
Logistics section 1+3+1, 1x M1097 + trailer
1st Battery 34 men
Battery HQ 1+3, 1 M-1044A1
1 Platoon – Avenger 10
Section HQ 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 1 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 2 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 3 2 men, 1 Avenger
Team 4 2 men, 1 Avenger
2 Platoon – guns 20
Section HQ 3 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted
Team 5 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 6 3 men, M1097, 20mm FK 20-2, mounted
Team 7 4 men, M1097, M167 VADS, towed
Team 8 4 men, M1097, 23mm ZUR-23-2S Jod, towed
Team 9 2 men, M1097, twin M61 Vulcan, mounted

2nd Marine Regiment (740 men)
HQ Coy 2nd Marines 66 men, M-1042A2
1/2nd Battalion 24 Officers + 313 Enlisted =337 men
H&S Company (aka BHQ) (6+31), M-1042A2
HQ Plt (4+6)
Comms Plt (5)
Service Plt (1+9), 2x M-939 5 tonne truck
Scout Plt (8)
Medical Plt (1+3)
Alpha Company 6+94 men
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
1 Plt 1+25 men
2 Plt 1+25 men
3 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Bravo Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
4 Plt 1+25 men
5 Plt 1+25 men
6 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
Charlie Company
CHQ 2+4 men, 1 Humvee + trailer
7 Plt 1+25 men
8 Plt 1+25 men
9 Plt 1+25 men
Weapons Plt (1x 81mm Mortar, 1x .50 cal M2HB, 1x SMAW or Dragon) 1+15 men, 1 HUMVEE + trailer

2/2nd Battalion (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/2nd Battalion - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/2 and 2/2

6th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 6th Marines

1/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/6th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/6th Btn - Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/6 and 2/6

8th Marine Regiment 740 (organised as 2nd Regiment)
Headquarters Company 8th Marines

1/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

2/8th Btn (organised as 1/2 battalion)

3/8th Btn -Disbanded, personnel transferred to 1/8 and 2/8

10th Marine Regiment 200 men
Headquarters Battery 10th Marines 50 men, M-1042A2

1/10th Btn –100 men, M-1042A2, M-1044A1
Headquarters Battery 10 men, 2x M-1042A2
Battery A – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery B – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck
Battery C – 30 men, 2 x M198 155mm, 2x M-809 5 tonne truck

5/10th Btn – 50 men
Headquarters Battery 17 men, 1 M1097, 1 Mk48 heavy truck
R Battery – 21 men 1 M110A2 203mm SP, 1 M-1050 FAASV
S Battery – 12 men 1 M109A2 155mm SP, 1 M-992A1 FAASV

2nd Force Service Support Group (FSSG)
Headquarters & Service Battalion 50 men, M-1044A1

2nd Combat Logistics Battalion 200 men
Headquarters & Support Company, M-1044A1
Engineer Company
Transportation Support Company M-939 5 tonne trucks
Military Police
Maintenance Platoon
Landing Support Platoon
Supply Platoon M-939 5 tonne trucks, 2x LMC-1500
Communications Platoon

8th Engineer Support Battalion 200 men
Headquarters and Service Company, M-1044A1
Engineering Support Company
A Company
B Company
C Company
Bulk Fuel Company
Bridge Company
2nd Explosive Ordnance Disposal Company

2nd Maintenance Battalion 68 men, 1 M-88A1 Hercules
Headquarters & Service Company, M-1044A1
Electronic Maintenance Company
Engineer Maintenance Company
General Support Maintenance Company
Ordnance Maintenance Company
Motor Transportation Maintenance Company

2nd Medical Battalion 100 men
Headquarters and Service Company 30
Alpha – Surgical 60, 2x MK48 heavy truck, 1x M-997 Ambulance, 2x M-997A2 ambulance
Bravo – Dental 10

2nd Supply Battalion (located at Kiel, Germany) – not included in 2nd MARDIV numbers
Specializes in distributing & warehousing military goods & equipment
Headquarters and Service Company
Ammunition Company
Supply Company
Medical Logistics Company

[Graebarde]

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when? And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when? Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team? This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.

[Legbreaker]

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

My thoughts are in around late April, early May 2000, the 2nd moved to Kiel and embarked on transports to take them to their landings across the Wisla delta. At a guess the sea journey wouldn't have taken a day, the actual landing about three or four days (due to a shortage of landing vessels), and overland movement and securing of initial objectives another day or two.

Landing at Stegna, primary objectives might be the village & bridges at Rybina (and eventual location of DIVHQ and supporting units), Wisla river crossing at Dworek, the town & bridges at Nowy Dwor, and bridge at Jazowa.
Secondary objectives (to provide an alternate route for the 8th ID and following units) would be the bridge over Leniwka at the west end of Sobieszewo Island (east of Gdansk), the ferry at Sobieszewo (east of Gdansk), and the lock at the south eastern end of the island. Elbag might be taken a few days later depending on the overall situation while the remainder of the division digs in and sends out patrols against the expected Pact reaction.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The 2nd reformed in northern Germany in January 1998. There's no indication they were involved in any significant actions from then until Spring 2000 (which doesn't say they weren't of course).

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.

[Webstral]

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg. I wish I had the time to study you ORBAT in detail and give proper feedback, but I don't even have time for my own work right now. Thanks for keeping the creative light lit!

[Rainbow Six]

Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.

Originally Posted by Graebarde

<Scratches head>
The 6th Marines were in NORWAY until when? And the 8th Marines were in the Med until when? Would 2 MarDiv be more than a Regimental Combat Team? This is not to say your OOB isn't good, it just got me to wondering how those forces got to Poland. Perhaps the 8th, the the 6th would still be tied up in Norway.

There's a relatively detailed timeline for Norway in the Boomer module (although it does have a big gap from the end of 1997 to autumn of 2000). It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I think we discussed this a little in the last year. I suspect the division, now unified, was kept as an uncommitted reserve during the Soviet '98 offensive, or perhaps used as a raiding force on the Baltic, and/or as an amphibious decoy to threaten the Baltic coast.

I tend to agree and it makes sense. From memory, the only real action in 98-99 was down towards the south of Germany so the Marines plus most other units in the north make for a good reserve/occupation/defence force.
With the northern units basically sitting it out for a while, it's plausible the units in the south aren't in as strong a position having had less "free" time to reorganise and tend to maintenance and food production.

Originally Posted by Webstral

That's a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail, Leg.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Leg, I enjoyed reading your orbat and it sounds plausible enough to me - well done.

Thanks! I'm fairly happy with the numbers now (although it's subject to tweaking as more facts appear). The next step is filling out vehicles and heavy weapons.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

It states that most NATO forces were withdrawn from Norway at some unspecified time after the end of 1997, and by the end of 2000 the only non Norwegian NATO forces in the country were British and Canadian.

With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.
It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

With 7 nationalities included in the 2nd Marines as of October 2000, I'm guessing a few Norwegians and Danes may have either come back with the Marines, or been included in their 2000 landings to fill out specialist shortfalls.

It's hard to justify British, Czechs, Romanians, etc in their numbers, and near impossible for French, Dutch, Italians, Greeks and Turks. Logically only Germans, Americans and Canadians could readily be absorbed, although Poles and Russians and maybe Ukrainians may have a presence (in limited numbers due to security and trust issues).

It's not impossible that a small number of British troops - either Royal Marines from 3 Commando Brigade (which I think has a different title in the books), or soldiers from the Parachute Regiment or the Royal Green Jackets could have found themselves attached to the US Marines whilst in Norway and never returned to UK command. It's probably more of a stretch for the Dutch, but still not impossible - IRL Dutch Marines would have been attached to 3 Commando Brigade for operations in Norway (I'm at work so don't have any books handy to confirm if that happened in T2K).

[Legbreaker]

While the British may have been with the marines in Norway, the marines have been in Germany for a couple of years by 2000. Chances are those Brits would have been reclaimed.
The Dutch never got out of Germany (Dutch government only stayed in Nato as long as their troops weren't sent into the offensive) before France moved in and the Dutch all went home.
Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Due to the strategic importance of the marine component of the offensive, I'm of the opinion the various Nato allies would have been requested to provide amphibious trained troops to form small platoon sized units within the 2nd Marine structure.

Yeah, makes sense, that's actually why I think there is a case to be made made for at least some Royal Marines to have stayed with the US Marines even after they moved to Germany and the option was there to bring them back under national command - it would be a way of keeping all amphibious trained troops together under a single command structure and provides the 2nd Dvn with experienced replacements for its losses so I definitely think there might be a few Royal Marines serving with the 2nd Marine Division in the summer of 2000.

[Legbreaker]

I'd think that they'd definitely been reclaimed in '98 but seconded back to the 2nd Marines during the organisational stages of the 2000 offensive. Makes no sense for them to stay with the US when nobody could possibly have any idea of the situation to occur later.

[LAW0306]

Sorry Leg you just spent two years getting alot of things wrong. you have units that would not even be in a division in one. you told me two years ago they only deployed as a division yet you have Combat logistic units and Marine air wing units in your order of battle. I'm sorry you wasted your time and now conterdict yourself.

[LAW0306]

you also use iraq war task force names like route clearance and mobile assault in 2nd CEB. They were only for Iraq war to make them fight as infantry to fall under foce caps.

[Legbreaker]

Oh dear.....

Once again Law you're overlooking an important fact. This is a game, it's set several YEARS after nukes and warfare wipe out real life organisations.

What is in the "real world" simply does not apply, especially since there's just 4000 people to fill in positions for which approximately four times that number are supposedly required.

I think I'll be ignoring your comments. Again. They're just not relevant to the situation.

[LAW0306]

you can ignore all you want but you stated that only 2nd Marine division was in europe . Right? well you have units from MEF, The WIng and the MLG Present. How did they get there? did they come by themselfs to europe? please enlighten me.

[LAW0306]

oh i forgot god bless you leg.

[LAW0306]

one last thing leg. We make SPMAGTF all the time and have plans to get bigger and smaller a war would not change this . its called doctrine. you just messed up. its cool we all do it. just take some advice and be better now that you have it.