British Infantry Rifles

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Is it the PP or the PPK?

Also the Welrod silent bolt action pistol.

It's the PPK in .22 long rifle

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Also the Welrod silent bolt action pistol.

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

I visited the Force recon camp at pendelton in 1999 and they still had supressed High Standard Pistols in their armory. At the time I thought that it was front heavy for a .22 pistol.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

It's the PPK in .22 long rifle

I just have a mix of sources showing PPK or PK in 7.65. My guess is both are used.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Last known use of the Welrod was by the SAS in the Gulf War. Amazing how those old suckers can hold out.

My favourite is the Sten Mk IIS used in Vietnam!

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by James Langham

I just have a mix of sources showing PPK or PK in 7.65. My guess is both are used.

Maybe, the sources I'm using are "The Operators" by James Rennie and personal conversations with another vetran of Northern Ireland who I am not naming because of both privacy and security issues.

[HorseSoldier]

I visited the Force recon camp at pendelton in 1999 and they still had supressed High Standard Pistols in their armory. At the time I thought that it was front heavy for a .22 pistol.

Also in use with Army SF up until the 9/11 timeframe. I think all the examples floating around were Vietnam vintage, or so I was told (they were gone by the time I showed up in '04 or so, but only recently).

[dude_uk]

So by 1998 your looking at something like-

British 'regular' army and TA equipped with the SA80/LSW, but augmented by the minmi and UGL as an essential war purchase.

Regular reserve- Those earmarked to reinforce British forces abroad get SA80. Those who do not get the L1A1

'Home defence' units- Those General service units (GSU's) and home service force get whichever they are issued.

With regards to sterling making AR-18's rather than further SA80's, isn't possible with the contract to fix them another attempt at flogging them around the world could occur? With it coming a limited production line? Might as well try to make some money out of it.

Also what about webbing? By the Gulf war PLCE is in full swing for replacing pattern '58. Pattern 58 being skipped and by '97 the entire army equipped with it. Do L1A1 7.62mm magazines fit in PLCE' pouches?

Good document though!

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

So by 1998 your looking at something like-

British 'regular' army and TA equipped with the SA80/LSW, but augmented by the minmi and UGL as an essential war purchase.

Regular reserve- Those earmarked to reinforce British forces abroad get SA80. Those who do not get the L1A1

'Home defence' units- Those General service units (GSU's) and home service force get whichever they are issued.

With regards to sterling making AR-18's rather than further SA80's, isn't possible with the contract to fix them another attempt at flogging them around the world could occur? With it coming a limited production line? Might as well try to make some money out of it.

Also what about webbing? By the Gulf war PLCE is in full swing for replacing pattern '58. Pattern 58 being skipped and by '97 the entire army equipped with it. Do L1A1 7.62mm magazines fit in PLCE' pouches?

Good document though!

Some SLRs abroad - 2nd line main (as per the Gulf).

Will probably add a note about A2 sales attempts but really there is little new manufacture, I see Stirling as just doing upgrades.

Vast amounts of 58 in warehouses reissued. PLCE is main webbing for regulars although chest rigs and assault vests making an appearance (more of the former than the later). Biggest problem with reissuing 58 was squaddies hanging onto 58 belts as they were superior to the plastic one.

SLR mags wont fit in early PLCE with dividers in the pouches. Improvisation using a water bottle or utility pouch as an ammo pouch would be common (these were designed so that they would fit as some rear troops just used one (double) ammo pouch). 58 pouches fit but are awkward with the yoke.

[HorseSoldier]

Are the L85 PLCE mag pouches doubles or triples?

You can get two FAL mags in an American ALICE 3x30 5.56mm mag pouch, but you'd want to stuff the bottom with a spare field dressing or two to make them easier to retrieve. I'd imagine the same would be true with PLCE pouches. (The American ALICE 3x30s had dividers as well. Most everyone cut them out as soon as they were issued back in the day.)

Improvisation using a water bottle or utility pouch as an ammo pouch would be common (these were designed so that they would fit as some rear troops just used one (double) ammo pouch).

Water bottle/canteen pouches are definitely good ammo pouches. Vietnam era US troops used them preferentially to the issue mag pouches, as they could hold more mags with reasonable retention and were quicker to get into (US pouches being open topped -- am I remembering right that PLCE has a lid?). They'd also be a good deal for anyone having to make do with an AK or other alternate weapon using non-STANAG mags (including L1A1s).

[Legbreaker]

We were able to get three SLR mags in the Steyr mag pouches - it's a squeeze but it can be done.
The ideal though was to use the 200 round minimi pouch for the 20 round 7.62 mags.
FYI, 100+ rounds of 7.62 will fit in the minimi pouch. It's not perfect and stretches the pouch well out of shape, but it's better than holding it in your hands....

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Are the L85 PLCE mag pouches doubles or triples?

You can get two FAL mags in an American ALICE 3x30 5.56mm mag pouch, but you'd want to stuff the bottom with a spare field dressing or two to make them easier to retrieve. I'd imagine the same would be true with PLCE pouches. (The American ALICE 3x30s had dividers as well. Most everyone cut them out as soon as they were issued back in the day.)



Water bottle/canteen pouches are definitely good ammo pouches. Vietnam era US troops used them preferentially to the issue mag pouches, as they could hold more mags with reasonable retention and were quicker to get into (US pouches being open topped -- am I remembering right that PLCE has a lid?). They'd also be a good deal for anyone having to make do with an AK or other alternate weapon using non-STANAG mags (including L1A1s).

The PLCE ammo pouches that are issued are a double pouch with each holding 3 magazines. Early versions had dividers that were removed by later versions. They are easy to remove with a knife anyway. Commercially there are also singles and triple pouches available.

Sounds as if SLR mags might fit after all (I don't have one handy to check).

PLCE water bottle pouches do have a lid, many squaddies however use the entrenching tool pouch for a water bottle (it is a perfect fit but you can't carry the mug).

58 webbing will hold 4 x STANAG mags, 5 if you force them in making them hard to remove. A common trick with 58 webbing was to get cardboard or plastic inserts to keep the pouch rigid, mainly for parades but sometimes in the field.

ALICE pouches fit on both PLCE and 58 webbing but slide around.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

ALICE pouches fit on both PLCE and 58 webbing but slide around.

Where there's a will...
Whenever I needed new pouches, or simply had the opportunity to go over gear what was being returned to the Q-store, I'd take the oldest, rustiest clips I could find. The newer plastic ones were ok if you needed to modify your webbing fairly regularly, but there's nothing like a decent bit of rust to keep things in place.
Electrical tape and baling wire also have plenty of uses on webbing and even a bit of scrim wedged strategically into place can help firm things up.

In my opinion, a soldiers webbing should receive nearly as much care and attention as their weapon - webbing that comes apart or slides around in combat is at best a serious nuisance and at worst can get you killed.

[Ramjam]

I cheated on my webbing. I pot riveted all the pouches to my belt and to each other. The buggers never came off after that and it was a nice fit without anything bouncing around.
As has been said, where there's a will there's a way.

[Legbreaker]

I know a few people who did that but thought it wasn't the best idea as it meant you couldn't change your webbing easily if you were suddenly handed the machinegun and needed to carry belts instead of mags.

[Targan]

I used a lot of tape on my webbing, and as mentioned by Leg the padding things out with bits of scrim trick works well too. All the old hands that I encountered in the infantry treated webbing set up and maintenance like an art.

[Legbreaker]

It is an art. It's amazing how many just throw it together and wonder why it all comes unstuck in the field and why they're always developing sores and blisters.
Boots are the same - they have to fit well and be kept supple with leather dressing / polish. A soldiers feet also need serious attention, airing them out as often as possible, changing socks as often as possible and treating even the smallest problem immediately.

It's the attention to these sorts of detail which seperate the real soldiers from the pretenders. Much of this attention to detail tends to be ignored in the field by novices though and reserved for the parade ground.

A soldiers weapon must be maintained properly to function correctly. The soldier himself should give his body the same attention or they're going to fall in a heap eventually.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Boots are the same - they have to fit well and be kept supple with leather dressing / polish. A soldiers feet also need serious attention, airing them out as often as possible, changing socks as often as possible and treating even the smallest problem immediately.

Sorry, continuing to stray OT here. It is a point of some humour among my family and friends that since the army all I have ever worn on my feet is boots. I do own a pair of running shoes but I honestly couldn't say where they are in my house. I wear boots when out walking, boots at the office, boots when going out socialising. I'm more than happy to pay good money for decent boots.

I guess at some point in the early 90s I got it stuck in my head that boots are what real men wear and that was that. For many years I cycled to work every day and wore boots riding my bike. Although I'm not quite the 'action man' I once was i still feel that one advantage of always wearing boots is that my feet are very used to it and I can leap into action at any time with little fear of injuring my feet. There are a number of occasions over the years where unexpected accidents would have resulted in broken toes or other foot injuries had I not been wearing boots.

My current daily wear boots are 8" Magnum Interceptor waterproof boots. Very comfortable, reasonable ankle support, have prooved to be quite durable so far.

[Legbreaker]

You know I'm exactly the same. Although basically confined to the office I wear almost nothing but boots when I'm not barefoot. Good solid boots with decent ankle support and a strong hard sole.
I wore my old issue black GPs into the ground but still have my browns for when I'm out bush cutting firewood or whatever. They're a good 16+ years old now and still going strong due to the regular dressing they get (although the tread is a bit worn). Oddly enough I've still got (and wear) some of my issue socks which still don't have any holes in them despite being nearly 20 years old.
They just don't make things like they used to!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I wore my old issue black GPs into the ground but still have my browns for when I'm out bush cutting firewood or whatever. They're a good 16+ years old now and still going strong due to the regular dressing they get (although the tread is a bit worn). Oddly enough I've still got (and wear) some of my issue socks which still don't have any holes in them despite being nearly 20 years old.
They just don't make things like they used to!

Hah! Same here. I still wear my Army issue browns when I'm in the bush but the soles are well worn now, sadly. My last pair of issue socks finally died eight or nine years ago.

[Legbreaker]

I heard a medic say once that he could tell a newbie from an old hand just by the condition of their feet. Anyone who'd been in the infantry less than about 6 months could barely walk with tinea, blisters and raw flesh while the older soldiers never seemed to have an issue (except maybe tinea they'd picked up in the communal showers, but even then it was under control).

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It is an art. It's amazing how many just throw it together and wonder why it all comes unstuck in the field and why they're always developing sores and blisters.

Back in the ALICE kit days everything was supposed to be tied on or dummy corded with 550 cord, at least in some units I was in. Some of the more enterprising guys would replace the metal ALICE clips with nothing but 550 cord to minimize rubbing and hot spots.

The thing I see today with the MOLLE stuff is a lot of my Joes get issued a rifleman's kit vest and use it as is without any thought given to whether the pre-assembled set up works, is optimal for them, etc. Most of them don't even have a concept of what an optimal set up is, with kit or weapons, and have to be beat over the head with the right thing to do, rather than what looks cool or is easiest/most comfortable.

[Legbreaker]

In the early days we'd buy (later it became standard issue) a padded liner for inside the belt. Eliminated any issues with the clips rubbing completely, and added a couple more inches of width to your waist which also meant a few more inches of belt space for pouches, etc. For a thin man like myself (at the time) those extra few inches were a godsend!

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

If I recall correctly, the Cold War Territorial SAS units were tasked with a bunch of stay behind/infiltration missions in the Warsaw Pact rear -- calling air strikes and artillery on high value targets in the deep battle area, recovery of aviators and other isolated personnel (taking over the role of, if I recall correctly, MI 9 in WW2), and some tertiary derring do with raiding/sabotage of rail lines, bridges, etc. Not having to cover down on contingency missions and having a fairly specialized remit was (I'm guessing) hoped to overcome the difficulty of keeping reserve special operations effective.

Similar with at least some of the US reserve SF units. At least one battalion, maybe the whole group in 11th or 12th SFG (US Army Reserve) spent several decades training to do the same sort of role in Norway if the balloon went up. The other USAR group and two NG groups switched around some on area orientation and such but guys from the former USAR side of SF I've talked to made it sound like there was always a reserve SF unit slated to support NATO's northern flank.

Might be worth checking my article on 27SAS too.

[James Langham]

Updated version adding sniper rifles, a note about SF rifles and a few minor edits.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It is an art. It's amazing how many just throw it together and wonder why it all comes unstuck in the field and why they're always developing sores and blisters.
Boots are the same - they have to fit well and be kept supple with leather dressing / polish. A soldiers feet also need serious attention, airing them out as often as possible, changing socks as often as possible and treating even the smallest problem immediately.

Although I'll admit to getting trenchfoot in Basic, I learned a lot from that, and from that point always had lots of dry socks and if I had room, another pair of boots. I didn't use foot powder because when combined with sweat it turned into scratchy sand. I bought moisturizing cream instead. A lot of people laughed because I polished my boots in the field or or laved them with Neat's Foot Oil, but it kept my boots in good shape. Back at the unit, I washed them with saddle soap quite often. The only real problem with my boots I had was right boot sole wear (I pronate slightly).

And I wore my LBE in a strange way, high on my waist, almost to the level where the web belt was at the bottom of my rib cage. It just felt the most comfortable to me there.

[James Langham]

Now with two new rifles and SMGs (hence the change of name). Pistols and MGs to follow.

[Badbru]

James, Illustration (Pic) 24, RUC member is NOT holding a G3 as the text says. That weapon is an HK33 in 5.56N.

Otherwise excellent. Also there was a typo "was" instead of "way". I suspect spellchecker incorrectly interpreted some othe typo.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Badbru

James, Illustration (Pic) 24, RUC member is NOT holding a G3 as the text says. That weapon is an HK33 in 5.56N.

Otherwise excellent. Also there was a typo "was" instead of "way". I suspect spellchecker incorrectly interpreted some othe typo.

Thanks, I should have looked more closely at the pic, wherever I got it from had it listed as a G3 so I just used that without looking carefully. At least that is easy to change.

If there is only a single type that is almost unique for me!

Thanks for the comments, both will be corrected in the next version.

[headquarters]

quality stuff.

Cool pics too. would have taken a fairbit of google fu to aquire I imagine.