5th generation jet fighters

[Raellus]

Hm. I guess if the Russians basically stopped maintaining most of their MiG-29s after the Soviet Union collapsed, that would explain why they had to scrap so many of them. I wonder why the Germans offloaded theirs so fast (IIRC, they sold almost all of them to Poland). It's not like they were replaced right away, 1-for-1 by, the Eurofighter Typhoon.

I also read somewhere that India lent a couple of MiG-29s to the Israelis. I too would really like to see a MiG-29 souped up by the Israelis.

[Panther Al]

*nods* It appears to me, that when the house of cards fell for the russians, they had to make some calls on what they could afford to do. It appears they made the choice between the SU27 and the MiG29 to continue to support, maintain, and further develop the SU27 because it was felt that while the 29 was a better pure dogfighter, the Flanker by virtue of being larger, could be pushed into being a true multirole fighter, and hence, if they could only support so many squadrons....

A reasonable choice I will admit.

And I wouldn't say that the Germans was in a hurry to ditch the 29: They kept them for a good while, and ever rebuilt them as well to further increase performance. I think they passed them on the Poles more because of trying to settle on fewer types than because they didn't like them: a lot of the Pilots that flew them preferred them over allied designs.

[95th Rifleman]

The NATO half of germany had more facilities and was geared towards the NATOplanes like the Tornado.

I think Germany made a judgement call on what would be easier to maintain and the NATO equipment came in cheaper and more effective.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Indeed: Neat idea, but the F111 has been long long gone from USAF service, even the Aussies have gotten rid of the ones that they used.

It's a damned shame we have disposed of the F111, there was nothing (and still is nothing) in the local theatre that could match it for long-range, low-level penetration. Yeah we got some F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to take over the role but they just don't have the range or low level ability that the F111 had.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It's a damned shame we have disposed of the F111, there was nothing (and still is nothing) in the local theatre that could match it for long-range, low-level penetration. Yeah we got some F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to take over the role but they just don't have the range or low level ability that the F111 had.

One of the main reasons the Tornado is still in service across Europe. It's a bastard fr low lever strike missions. Problem is they keep trying to bolt on tech to make it do other jobs.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It's a damned shame we have disposed of the F111, there was nothing (and still is nothing) in the local theatre that could match it for long-range, low-level penetration. Yeah we got some F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft to take over the role but they just don't have the range or low level ability that the F111 had.

Now you know how the T2K conflict between Australia and Indonesia would turn. At least you retain the capability to strike Darwin and Port Moresby (and I'm not even sure of that one)

I have a serious question, then. Is there anything on the current warplane market that could have replace them outside of the F-15E? Second hand Tu-22M may be?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Now you know how the T2K conflict between Australia and Indonesia would turn. At least you retain the capability to strike Darwin and Port Moresby (and I'm not even sure of that one)

I have a serious question, then. Is there anything on the current warplane market that could have replace them outside of the F-15E? Second hand Tu-22M may be?

I'm a little bit biased, I really liked the F111 - I don't think there is anything on the modern market that could replace it aside from types still in service such as the Tornado or older types no longer in service, such as the Buccaneer.
I don't know for certain but I don't think the F-15 has the same ability for low-level penetration that the F111 had.

It seems to be very much a situation caused by the end of the Cold War, low-level intrusion is not believed to be necessary anymore so nobody is designing planes for that role. As they used to say when the Buccaneer was still in service - the only thing to replace a Buccaneer is another Buccaneer, that is to say, the low-level intrusion ability was something specific to that class of aircraft and it is not something that a "multi-role" fighter is very good at.
As has been mentioned, the desire to make new fighters able to do everything means they're good enough at everything but they're great at nothing.

[Raellus]

The F-15E was/is a very capable low-level strike fighter. In terms of payload, speed, and range, it is inferior to the F-111. But, the Beagle ("Bomb Eagle"), can defend itself against aerial threats as it's air to air abilities aren't really that diminished compared to its devoted air-superiority cousin*.

Don't get me wrong, I like the F-111. In the Twilight War, the U.S. for one would be pulling scores from storage, refurbishing them, and sending them to Europe.

*On a related note, there's an episode of Dogfights in which an EF-111 Raven "shot down" a pursuing Iraqi fighter during a low-level chase by leading it into a low hill. I'll have to watch it again to refresh my memory.

EDIT: Just rewatched the episode. The Iraqi fighter was a Mirage F1. It chased the Raven for a while and missed it with a radar-guided missile. An F-15C came to the rescue. It didn't get a chance to fire on the Mirage. The Iraqi pilot probably spooked and flew into a low hill. The Raven pilots got a DFC out of the engagement.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm a little bit biased, I really liked the F111 - I don't think there is anything on the modern market that could replace it aside from types still in service such as the Tornado or older types no longer in service, such as the Buccaneer.
I don't know for certain but I don't think the F-15 has the same ability for low-level penetration that the F111 had.

It seems to be very much a situation caused by the end of the Cold War, low-level intrusion is not believed to be necessary anymore so nobody is designing planes for that role. As they used to say when the Buccaneer was still in service - the only thing to replace a Buccaneer is another Buccaneer, that is to say, the low-level intrusion ability was something specific to that class of aircraft and it is not something that a "multi-role" fighter is very good at.
As has been mentioned, the desire to make new fighters able to do everything means they're good enough at everything but they're great at nothing.

I miss the old Bucky, she was a beutiful aircraft and a bloody good aircraft. Hell, I miss most of our old birds.

Back in my NAAFI days I was at RAF Marham when 39 Sqn where flying the Canberras. We used to joke who was older, the Canberras or the pilots. I think 39 Sqn had some of the oldest serving pilots in the RAF, good lads all of them, good memories.

I saw the Victors go and then the Canberras, hell even 13 Sqn has disbanded now. Makes me feel old and I'm only 31

[LBraden]

Mate, I am 25, I am not eligible for military service anymore, but..

I know how to field strip and clean an L1A1 SLR
I know how to fly and fix a Swordfish
I know how to field strip and clean a gimpy
I know how to repair the Pegasus engine used in the Harriers.

Trust me, I feel older a lot of the time now.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Mate, I am 25, I am not eligible for military service anymore, but..

I know how to field strip and clean an L1A1 SLR
I know how to fly and fix a Swordfish
I know how to field strip and clean a gimpy
I know how to repair the Pegasus engine used in the Harriers.

Trust me, I feel older a lot of the time now.

I have sympathy, at 41 (nearly 42) there are now no cadets I am training who were born when I became an instructor in the ACF - oh and I was issued a No4 rifle (.303 Lee Enfield)...

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Mate, I am 25, ... I feel older a lot of the time now.

I always get a chuckle when folks this young claim to "feel old", looking at things from the perspective of being over twice as old (I'll be 52 in a few weeks). You should be in the prime of your life. Enjoy it while you can. 40+ sucks, and 50+ really, really, sucks.

[LBraden]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

I always get a chuckle when folks this young claim to "feel old", looking at things from the perspective of being over twice as old (I'll be 52 in a few weeks). You should be in the prime of your life. Enjoy it while you can. 40+ sucks, and 50+ really, really, sucks.

Judging by my family history, I will be lucky to survive to 60, heart attacks are quite common in our family. so this is the start of my mid life crisis, and add to that the lack of a job, I usually feel down.

Anyway, back on topic, There has been quite a few interesting British planes that have been phased out over the last couple of decades that would be interesting in seeing the designs re-used with modern equipment.

[95th Rifleman]

It's always been one of my pet hates that the once great British aviation industry is now a sad joke.

We made some of the best and most effective aircraft of the early cold war era but after the 70's we just kept falling behind. Same with our naval industry, the nation that built HMS dreadnought can't even build her own aircraft carriers anymore

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

It's always been one of my pet hates that the once great British aviation industry is now a sad joke.

I share this feeling and the Vulcan remains my favorite bomber while the Harrier still is the aircraft that makes me dream the most.

Concerning the navy, I have a special tenderness for the Flower-class corvettes and Vosper-class MTB that equipped the FNFL (IMO it largely makes up for Mers-el-Kebir).

[natehale1971]

I have a question about the British Defense Industries... if there was a revitalization, that saw the British producing armaments for the Commonwealth Nations due to an expansion of the Cold War, who'd be leading the industries?

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I have a question about the British Defense Industries... if there was a revitalization, that saw the British producing armaments for the Commonwealth Nations due to an expansion of the Cold War, who'd be leading the industries?

T2k or T2013?

[natehale1971]

It's a twilight 2000 v1 type of world that had the timeline continued to present day. so basicly the cold war didn't end, communism never fell... but instead the Soviets and their satelites did what the PRC has done IRL to stablize their economies...

The soviets kept their poltical hegemony with "Black Winter"... this brought about the med alliance in the mid-1990s when France, Italy and Greece left NATO and created their own competing alliance that would be joined by several other Med countries.

Such as the Libyan Republic (they overthrew Khadaffy early-1990s with a well orchestrated coup that brought in a government that was close to France and Italy who helped rebuild their country), Algeria, Morocco and Tunisan Republic...

i'm still building the timeline... but wanted to get some of the stuff for the British Armed forces and their Defense Industry figured out...

I've already done the German Democratic Republic done, and been working on the Federal Republic of Germany as well... The US armed forces has been pretty easy. it's almost done.