Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Hang on a tick; isn't there a Carrier Battle Group still alive and well in the Gulf per the RDF? The Carl Vinson and a few others at least.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a full blown carrier group, nor that they're well. My understanding is the assault carrier at the heart of it all is immobilised from battle damage, and most of the other ships aren't much better off. Nothing 12 months in a decent shipyard can't fix, if only one was available....

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Isochron

With both sides having heavy losses in the number of ships, either side could have used nukes on ships (which I doubt due to strategic importance) or used aircraft launched Air to Ship missiles (much more likely). Both sides had very effective missiles.

There are several countermeasures for conventional anti-ship missiles. Some believe (I'm not among them) that just a couple of Tico class guided missile cruisers could defeat almost any ASM threat to a supercarrier. As for nukes, there are several Soviet ASMs designed to carrier low-yield nuclear payloads expressly for the purpose of taking out a US carrier group. As Mo pointed out, there were literally thousands of warheads out there on both sides so there'd really be no reason to skimp should the need arise.

Once again, I'm not arguing that the Soviets needed to resort to nukes to cause heavy NATO naval casualties, but it is a viable alternative explanation for the de facto destruction of NATO naval power in the N. Atlantic.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a full blown carrier group, nor that they're well. My understanding is the assault carrier at the heart of it all is immobilised from battle damage, and most of the other ships aren't much better off. Nothing 12 months in a decent shipyard can't fix, if only one was available....

You guys are confusing canon with some of the Great Matt W's posts.

Canon RDF sourcebook has the assault carrier Belleau Wood LHA 3 functional as part of TF 76.

The Great Matt W posted an RDF orbat previously, I couldn't find it, but I found this in the archives.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2090

"The carrier immobilized at Muscat, Oman is USS Independence (CV-62) with both torpedo damage and ASM damage. If a shipyard with supertanker size dry-dock was available, it would take 18 months of repairs to get her seaworthy. A caretaker crew is aboard, but most have been reassigned to other 5th FLT ships in the Gulf. "

[Matt Wiser]

And CVW-10 was her air wing; they're now based at Sheikh Isa AB, Bahrain.

I'll see if I can't dig out some of my old Naval stuff: Jason and his team found it mighty useful-they didn't use all of it, but they found much of it to be of value. They did have some surviving carriers-they may be moored 90% of the time, but there were four surviving carriers. (a fifth was docked in Bremerton with damage too serious to repair with resources at hand)

Personally, there would've been a lot more surviving ships, and not just anchored someplace. Remaining SSNs and Boomers would still be sailing on occasion, for example.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

You guys are confusing canon with some of the Great Matt W's posts.

Huh? So we are!
The Belleau Wood however isn't a full blown carrier, but instead only operates helicopters and Harriers. I cannot find any reference to the Tarawa class being equipped with a catapult which puts almost all fixed wing aircraft out of consideration (the OV-10 Bronco, which was transferred from the Navy to the Marines and then retired in 1995 being the only listed exception).
Even so, it's unlikely the ships would see much use since there's a decided lack of resupply of important items such as missiles, parts, and conventional ammunition.

[Olefin]

Ok lets go with Canon

USN ships still active and part of MilGov

RDF - a missile cruiser, a gun cruiser, several frigates

Kenya - a missile cruiser, several destroyers and frigates - per Frank Frey from his notes for the unpublished Lions in Twilight module

Troubled Waters - John Hancock and three Forest Sherman DD's plus a bunch of smaller vessels

Last Submarine - SSN

Naval and Aviation book - USS Tarawa

and since Korea was never discussed in a canon module but its assume those guys didnt swim there you can bet there is a task force there too

And the ships that brought the men to the RDF didnt transit the Med without escort - thats how you throw away 6000 men's lives - so that means more ships brought them there past the French and any Italian or Greek ships

oh and why wasnt Tarawa the command ship in Going Home - how about as simple as the skipper of the John Hancock was superior to him as to time in rank and thus would be the Task Force Commander

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

oh and why wasnt Tarawa the command ship in Going Home - how about as simple as the skipper of the John Hancock was superior to him as to time in rank and thus would be the Task Force Commander

I thought that even when a fleet or task force commander is aboard a given vessel, that vessel will still have it's own captain. And the Tarawa is far, far better suited to the role of command ship, surely? In any case, at least some of the surface combatants escorting the Omega fleet back to the US must have crossed the Atlantic to Bremerhaven prior to the Omega fleet being assembled. I'd be amazed if MilGov didn't have at least one admiral or rear admiral available either already in Germany or at Norfolk and available to cross the Atlantic prior to the Omega fleet's assembly, ready and very much willing to command the Omega fleet.

Following ideas previously put forward by others on this forum, I've been tending towards the Tarawa being grounded and semi or non-functional somewhere along the Polish or Baltic coast. However I don't think it would be out of the question for the Tarawa to have been capable of being refloated and towed back to friendly waters but not being in a suitable condition for an Atlantic crossing with the Omega fleet. IIRC many of the remaining US forces in the UK made their own return to the CONUS post-Omega. Perhaps by then the Tarawa could have undergone sufficient repair and refit in a UK harbour to be the flagship for that second, mini-Omega?

[Olefin]

Or you could have Tarawa not sunken but have taken significant damage to where she wouldnt be useful for the command ship - i.e. her radios, sensors, etc.. could be out and she is basically unable to exercise command functions outside of using signal flags.

That happened during WWII when ships took damage to where they were still operable but where they couldnt exercise command anymore - for instance San Francisco after she got pounded at Guadalcanal - still afloat but she was in no shape to be the command ship anymore

There are no details on who commanded the effort - and if there wasnt a seperate task force commander present then the senior naval officer present would take over as Task Force Commander - so if its the Captain of the Hancock then he is it. (all it takes is for him to be one day senior to everyone else and he would have command fall to him)

Plus having Tarawa present allows the US to evac helicopters and other equipment that divisions have been hauling around per canon and does it without any disruption of the canon (no one, no matter how partisan one way or another is going to say that Tarawa is even a tenth as capable as a Nimitz class nuclear carrier and that her still being in the USN means the US is now ruling the waves)

And it would go to also saying why the Marines got stranded - i.e. Tarawa was needed elsewhere

and you would think if Tarawa had been lost or grounded, given how the handbooks were written, it would have mentioned her loss so soon after the picture was taken

thus no matter how much Legbreaker wants her sunk, she most likely was part of Omega

[Rainbow Six]

With regards to canon, wasn't at least one US Coast Guard ship mentioned in Rifle River? (Yes, I know technically that wouldn't be part of the US Navy )

Also it's been years since I read Satellite Down so I can't remember if the USS Virginia was on its own or was part of a small group of ships? Didn't they get into a fight with some Soviet warships? Is the Virginia listed as the only survivor?

An escort for the ships going to the Middle East makes sense.

I'm not convinced about Korea...there would certainly have been a task force there at some point in time, but how much of it would be left by 2000 is probably debatable.

Targan, I could be mistaken here (I'm at work at the moment so all of the above is from memory) but I think the US personnel in the UK were uplifted at the same time as the main Omega evacuation - I think there is reference in the Survivor's Guide to the UK to one or more of the Omega ships making a stop off in the UK to pick up US personnel.

[Olefin]

Yes you are right about the stop in the UK - its also mentioned in Troubled Waters about the Omega UK evacuation

There is a good chance that whatever ships are in Korea are still there - short of fuel so they cant make the haul home but with enough fuel so that they can still operate around the Korean peninsula and the Sea of Japan.

So they are still effective but only locally. Now get some fuel there from the RDF or Kenya and that would change.

(i.e. Japan in late WWII didnt have the fuel to send ships to Singapore anymore but they had enough for ops to Pusan and back - so similar situation here.)

Virginia had several ships with her but they were all lost in the firefight with the Russian task group that led to her being beached.

From how its described they were the last USN ships active off the West Coast - and its a long way from the West Coast to Korea.

If you are interested Rainbow I can put up the relevant passage from Satellite Down showing that.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Or you could have Tarawa not sunken but have taken significant damage to where she wouldnt be useful for the command ship - i.e. her radios, sensors, etc.. could be out and she is basically unable to exercise command functions outside of using signal flags.

Fair point.

Originally Posted by Olefin

There are no details on who commanded the effort - and if there wasnt a seperate task force commander present then the senior naval officer present would take over as Task Force Commander - so if its the Captain of the Hancock then he is it. (all it takes is for him to be one day senior to everyone else and he would have command fall to him)

All true but seriously, given the enormous importance of the operation, MilGov couldn't come up with a single admiral or rear admiral to command the fleet? It just beggars belief.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Plus having Tarawa present allows the US to evac helicopters and other equipment that divisions have been hauling around per canon and does it without any disruption of the canon.

Again, all true but not having the Tarawa present doesn't mean the US can't evac helicopters and other equipment with the Omega fleet. There would definitely be one or more (almost certainly more) ro-ro vessels in the fleet, and many cargo vessels are fully capable of having helicopters landed on them (many have one or more of their cargo hold hatches specially reinforced for exactly that purpose). And you'll note from other posts I've made that I'm not opposed to the Tarawa being once again in operation with the USN post-Omega. I just regard it has highly unlikely that the Tarawa was with the Omega fleet and didn't rate a single mention in Going Home.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and you would think if Tarawa had been lost or grounded, given how the handbooks were written, it would have mentioned her loss so soon after the picture was taken

You would think that if the Tarawa was among the ships sailing with the Omega fleet it would have been mentioned in Going Home. Seriously, specifically naming the John Hancock as being present and casually omitting any mention of the Tarawa being in the same fleet? I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by Olefin

thus no matter how much Legbreaker wants her sunk, she most likely was part of Omega

I'm happy to admit that Leg and I have quite similar views in many areas of T2K. I'm also happy that you've joined the forum, Olefin, you have already stimulated much interesting discussion since joining. But I'd advise against buying into some of the old disputes that caused a great deal of pain around here (and led to the departure from active participation of the creator, founder and administrator of this forum). I don't think it's a fair characterisation of Leg's views to suggest that he vehemently advocates the sinking of the Tarawa. As I recall, the idea that the Tarawa was beached or grounded somewhere along the Polish coast during 2000 was widely accepted as a reasonable possibility by many members of this forum. As it happens, Leg and I subscribed to that view. Long story short, I disagree that the Tarawa being part of the Omega fleet was "most likely". I agree that it's possible though.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

With regards to canon, wasn't at least one US Coast Guard ship mentioned in Rifle River? (Yes, I know technically that wouldn't be part of the US Navy )

That would be the Chilula, WMEC-153, a Cherokee class medium endurance cutter. And for all intents and purposes, during the Twilight War most USCG ships were USN ships. Those USCG assets listed in Rifle River as being under the direct command of Rear Admiral Nils Holsgirder are examples of USCG vessels that basically aren't USN vessels by 2000.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Also it's been years since I read Satellite Down so I can't remember if the USS Virginia was on its own or was part of a small group of ships? Didn't they get into a fight with some Soviet warships? Is the Virginia listed as the only survivor?

All of the other vessels in the USS Virginia's battle group were sunk in combat.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I'm not convinced about Korea...there would certainly have been a task force there at some point in time, but how much of it would be left by 2000 is probably debatable.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Targan, I could be mistaken here (I'm at work at the moment so all of the above is from memory) but I think the US personnel in the UK were uplifted at the same time as the main Omega evacuation - I think there is reference in the Survivor's Guide to the UK to one or more of the Omega ships making a stop off in the UK to pick up US personnel.

Now that you mention it I think I recall that too. I don't think the whole Omega fleet made a stopover though. Perhaps the Omega Fleet split at that point, with the main TF crossing directly and several sub-fleets sailing separately, one to pick up US troops in the UK, another sailing for the Med and on to the RDF and another heading to Africa to reinforce US forces there.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

There is a good chance that whatever ships are in Korea are still there - short of fuel so they cant make the haul home but with enough fuel so that they can still operate around the Korean peninsula and the Sea of Japan.

So they are still effective but only locally. Now get some fuel there from the RDF or Kenya and that would change.

That's a possibility. I could be convinced either way. The Korean AO is one area that we've had few discussions about on this forum and I'd enjoy hearings everyone's ideas on it. Definitely a theater that deserved more attention than GDW gave it.

[Olefin]

I agree with you there - same with Yugoslavia - besides a few mentions in a couple of modules and the US Army Guide its an empty page as to the original version of the game

I have been thinking that some fan modules may be what is needed there for sure.

[Legbreaker]

If the Tarawa was still floating, and able to move under it's own power, it absolutely would have been the flagship, even if it's radios, radar, etc was destroyed. It doesn't take much to move a few radios aboard and position some radar vehicles on deck. The ship itself has way too much flexibility, even damaged, to ignore.
So it's far more likely it was out of commission in the latter half of 2000 than passed over in favour of an old destroyer.
If it was floating and useful, the US XI Corps wouldn't be cut off and could have been withdrawn - provided there were still landing craft left over from the earlier offensive to take the troops and their equipment off the beaches (there's no suitable ports between Germany and Gdansk).

[Rainbow Six]

A thought occurs to me re: the Tarawa. I don't think it's been mentioned before - apologies if it has and / or I'm stating the obvious.

Going Home is part of the T2K V1 chronology

The Nautical / Aviation Guide is part of the T2K V2x chronology

They are essentially two different timelines (albeit from the summer of 1997 onwards the differences are limited).

Its possible that in the v1 timeline the USS Tarawa may have been sunk long before the summer of 2000.

We know that GDW reissued at least one module to support V2x (Rendevous in Krakow) in a revised format with some different material. Perhaps if things hadn't gone the way they did we might have seen a revised Going Home at some point in time, which may have had the Tarawa as the TF34 flagship.

Just a thought...

[Legbreaker]

The information provided in the colour plates of the V1 soviet, US and Nato vehicle guides was reused word for word in the V2 books. The same for unit histories. Additionally, much of the V2.x timeline info was likewise recycled from V1.
Therefore, while it is conceivable that V2's Aviation & Nautical book diverged significantly from whatever was discussed in the GDW office, it seems exceedingly unlikely that they'd have "reinvented the wheel" so to speak. Therefore, I believe we can confidently use the Tarawa information as presented for all versions.

[Panther Al]

At the risk of jumping into a storm here, but there is a third option.

IIRC, Not all the US Troops went home: They chose some units to remain in Europe to maintain a US Presence in the theatre. It would make sense, since Europe is the hottest theatre around, to use the Tarawa as a Flagship for a small European based Navel Presence to support those US troops there. After all, you really are not going to *need* a full fledged light carrier back in the US, whereas in Europe it allows you to have a solid RDF operating the Baltic where the quality of opposition requires the use of such equipment.

[Olefin]

Great idea Panther - heck there is even a way you can explain the ship not being there for Omega and be in Europe and not sunk - which would be her captain declares for CivGov and takes the ship to support the ops in Yugoslavia - where such a ship would be of huge help to the US divisions that are there - and even though improbable it wouldnt in any way conflict with canon - because for one there is very little about Yugoslavia besides the forces there that is canon - and if all it has in one or two operational aircraft then the statement in RDF about last US active carrier group (at that time) still holds up

[Legbreaker]

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

[Olefin]

Or alternatively Tarawa is at Omega - but doesnt show up until after the orders are issued for the evacuation - perhaps she is out of communication or has her long range radios knocked out - so she is assumed sunk

and then she steams into Bremerhaven with part of the 8th ID and the Marines on board or maybe just empty and unable to rescue them at all

We dont have any details on what exact ships were there by Nov 14 - so if she shows up between the orders issued and that date she is part of Omega and the module wouldnt mention it in any of the information the players had

Oh and it could then explain who takes the 6000 men to the RDF - its Tarawa and a few other ships

and the RDF module never mentioned what ships brought the reinforcements - just that they showed up

and Kings Ransom didnt have any naval elements in it - so Tarawa showing up wouldnt have been part of the module

so does Tarawa being there change canon - no not at all since no ships besides John Hancock were canon mentioned

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

so did canon suddenly explode and fly off into improbability - no it just expanded to add three DD's

same with Tarawa - adding her to the USN active list in now way suddenly makes the US rule the seas - she is just one more ship that is low on fuel if she is in the states or who arrives with the reinforcements at the RDF and who, like the French ships who were part of the FAR, not mentioned in the sourcebook

[Olefin]

and my assesment is just as well supported by the published materials Leg - so we can agree to disagree - and unless someone picks up Twilight 2000 again officially and says what is and what isnt canon - you are free to either add the Tarawa to a fan module or game or not

frankly its one way to add a naval element to a Polish scenario - have the Osprey fly off the sinking Tarawa if you want her sunk and land in Poland near, oh say, north of Krakow to be found by a bunch of escaping 5th ID soldiers who strip her for usuable equipment and add her crew as NPC's (or new characters if you need to replace some casualties)

If you want her part of the campaign - an Osprey is a great way to insert characters into, oh say, Texas or Last Submarine - or to do a pick up by helo from NYC with the King of NY in pursuit

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I remember Leg arguing that only 9 ships existed in the USN because thats all that were mentioned at the time - then Challenger 42 comes out and now there are three DD's specifically mentioned as being in service and part of the Omega Task Force

That is a misquote. I stated that was all that were listed in canon and did not close the door to the possibility of others.

In fact you will find at several occasions I have stated the possibility of additional ships, of ALL nations (specifically Soviet), but none in 100% working order.

The one factor which cannot be ignored though is balance. To increase the effective strength of one side will radically upset the delicate balance of T2K and turn it from a playable post apocalyptic game to an exercise in comparing military penises. Increase both sides and you have to justify supporting those units and explain why such "strong" units are no longer able to prosecute the war.

[Targan]

I don't really have any issue with the idea of the Tarawa being seaworthy and in active USN service, if it's post-Omega. Heck, there have been a couple of scenarios suggested for the Tarawa's ongoing service that I would support, given a bit more fleshing out. There are other examples where information on USN vessels is open to interpretation. An example - there are USN destroyers mentioned in A Rock in Troubled Waters that may well have been involved in escorting the Omega fleet either as part of the fleet all the way from Bremerhaven or for only part of the way. Those vessels weren't specifically stated as having been in the Omega fleet, but then again they weren't stated not to have been either.

Tarawa kind of falls into that category, too, but as I've said in previous posts it just seems unlikely to me that with a Spruance-class destroyer being specifically mentioned in Going Home, the Tarawa would be part of the fleet and not mentioned (and even more unlikely that it wasn't the flagship).

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The US units which stayed in Europe either didn't have a choice (the cut off XI Corps) or essentially muntinied and refused to obey orders. Some smaller units did stay with official sanction, but the withdrawal order was essentially all encompassing.

The Tarawa declaring for Civgov? Very unlikely since floating it's such a huge resource, deep in a Milgov area in mid 2000. You can bet Milgov would do EVERYTHING in it's power to prevent such an occurrence. As far as I'm aware, the ship supports the US Marines - no US marines declared for Civgov. It's very likely that even after delivering troops a decent complement of Marines stayed aboard.

As it's conventionally fueled, it's not about to join the Yugoslavian units either - it would be left all alone in the middle of a hostile situation. There's almost no possibility of fuel being available from any source.

Additionally, even if it was to mutiny and somehow get to Yugoslavia, it still has to face the "might" of the remaining Italian and Greek navies. Obviously Civgov had some naval assets when it deployed units there, but how effective are they by late 2000? Could they really have the necessary fuel, ammunition and surviving crew to sortie out to escort the Tarawa all the way, or even part of the way?

No, to me the by far most logical fate of the Tarawa is either sunk, beached or critically damaged somewhere in the Baltic as a result of Pact resistance to the Spring Offensive.

Others are entitled to have a different view, however careful examination of the published materials appears to support this assessment.

Um, On the top bit I disagree with you on this.


I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

You're right, that's a good fit.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

I broke out going home, and started up with the pencil and paper to run the numbers.

The units that basically said to hell with it, and went off on their own amounts to only 2700 troops and 14 AFV's, in three units. The largest being made up of 2000/6 setting up a little pocket duchy in the Austrian Alps.

The units that remained in the chain of command, that elected to stay behind - and considering where over half of them are, (We are not talking about 11th Corp here, this is 4th Army, 3 Corp, and 13th Corp) Germany Proper, with the largest single unit being 1Cav with 2400/43 located right in the middle of organised (Well, TW2k sense of organised) Germany. Admittedly, a small portion of 1600 men and 14 AFV's fall under German Command being that they are co-located and assigned as a NATO unit to a German Higher Headquarters. Those two units could be argued either way as if they are running from the Chain of Command, or abiding by it since technically, they don't fall under the Omega Authority. The total staying behind in the chain amounts to 13,000 Men, and 121 AFV's. This amounts to roughly a third of US forces in Europe - and that many wouldn't stay behind without Official Sanction. Now those in my first Para - yeah. They fall into what you said about mutinous units and all.

Of course, that leaves 37,300 men heading out, and 231 AFV's being handed over to the German Army (Which I can just see the German High Command jumping for joy over - thats enough AFV's to bring a Panzer Division up from nothing to full strength and then some!). Which brings up a interesting point: If you have to choose who your guys belonged to that headed to the RDF, 5 Corp is the way to go. According to Going Home 5 Corp not only seems to have its shit together much better than a lot of the others, they do amount to a total of 7000 troops. Subtract those that are in no condition to stay in the army, this is a perfect formation to get seconded to the middle east.

Originally Posted by Targan

You're right, that's a good fit.

So, if we go with this - which makes sense on sooo many levels, here is the units scheduled to go to the RDF:

Bear in mind these units are the ones already in Bremerhaven, so they have had time to get everything back in order.

3rd Armoured, 5000 men, 54 AFV's.
4th Infantry, 1000 men, 16 AFV's.
28th Infantry, 1000 men, 4 AFV's.
11th ACR - When they are not blowing up their own motor pool, 500 men, 4 AFV's.

It would make sense to use the manpower tucked into the 11th ACR to cover losses in the other three units for the aforementioned loss of those unable to stay in the service. I would also suggest, though this is un-cannon, that the US MilGov would make a play to keep at least the heavy vehicles already present in these units (If only the 3d Armoured) to allow them to function in the Middle East. 3AD in particular was one of the very first units to arrive in Europe before it got really started, and has taken part according to the books, in *every* offensive of the war, and still has a very large strength of armoured vehicles and manpower. That still leaves over 150ish (Or 175ish) AFV's to be handed over to the Germans.

*edit*

Also, having the 3AD retain its Tanks and other heavy equipment does make sense in a canon way if you think about it. From what I read, the RDF is spread out over a wide area, with a very european reduction in combat power. In the RDF source book, it points out that the Soviets was getting ready to make a very large total offensive in 2001. If all the RDF got was leg infantry, I don't think that even with Airpower, the RDF could stop them. Reading the T2300 storyline, it sounds as if they did. Having the 3AD arrive in theatre, with its 54 Tanks, would give the RDF enough strength to beat back the offensive in such a way as to allow the US to get what they did out of the region as per the T2300 story line.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

Targan, is a 3rd way feasible?

What about an all-encompassing Opord:Omega that has troops being pulled from Korea, Japan, Australia and points east...erm, west...and the Tarawa is conveniently the flagship of that evac mission, and it takes place at the same time, having avoided the worst of the typhoon season?

It satisfies all parties: Tarawa still afloat, but not a factor in the European/Baltic theatre.

[Olefin]

Actually having 5th Corps evacuated out with its AFV's is part of the alternate timeline that I have started to flesh out. When we did the RDF my GM looked at the 5th Corps and then looked at 6000 men and it made perfect sense - that they were sent out in their own evac, with their AFV's as part of an operation that deviated from Omega.

I.e. Omega took everyone but 5th Corps home without their tanks and 5th Corp went with their tanks and men to the RDF, giving them the men and AFV's to stop the last Soviet offensive and then push them out of Iran.

And how did they keep their tanks - because they got evac'd with ships from the states while the rest had to go home on the German ships and the fare for those ships was their heavy weapons and vehicles.

It also explains why the East Coast is so short of fuel in Troubled Waters - because they had to give most of their fuel to the convoy taking the 5th Corps to the RDF.

And by the way all of those suppositions fit totally into canon - it supports the written material of Omega and the RDF, explains where the 6000 men came from, and how the US and its allies drove the Soviets out of Iran for 2300 AD.

As for Tarawa - having her dispatched for an Asian Omega also makes a lot of sense - where are a bunch of Marine units that would need to be evacuated - answer- Korea. And she would be perfect to evacuate them.

And Leg, Tarawa being added to the USN in no way harms canon. She doesnt overpower any scenario or the outcome of any scenario.

Plus she adds a great way to get players back to Europe for the return to Europe scenario as well - i.e. she is late to the party for Omega or does the RDF evac - goes back to the States with the men who in the RDF choose to go home (it is mentioned that some do choose to go home and the best way to get them home is the ship or ships that brought the reinforcements), then is dispatched to Europe (possibly after being fueled with some of the oil from Gulf Forty) for a second Omega to get the remains of the 8th ID and the Marines out (and drops the player party off for the Return modules as well)

[Targan]

Panther Al, raketenjagdpanzer, Olefin - these ideas all have merit. Just to clarify a few things for my own understanding - say we have the Tarawa as the flagship of the Bremerhaven to Middle East Omega part of the Omega fleet, when she gets to the eastern end of the Mediterranean are she and her escorts able to traverse the Suez Canal? If so, we can wrap up many of these ideas in a nice, neat package.

There was an interesting discussion here a year or more ago about MilGov naval and merchant marine assets using Australian ports during long Pacific and Indian Ocean transits. If the Tarawa was able to take Omega evacuees directly to Saudi or Iran she would certainly then be able to take on fuel and undergo maintenance before travelling on to Australia, Korea and Japan. I guess then she'd be taking the troops to a west coast MilGov enclave. But it would work well, and she'd make a great addition to the seaborne lifeline between the CONUS and the RDF.

[Olefin]

It would make sense - she isnt on the Omega task force list because she is on a different mission that is going to the Middle East with the 6000 reinforcements - the Hancock and her Task Force are going home and the Tarawa and the 5th corps and their task force are going to the RDF

and all canon aspects are met completly since the RDF ever mentioned what ships brought the men there

works for me