More stupid U.S. Marines

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

Interesting. However, for the sake of argument, there are (at least) three things wrong with the premise to the pic's caption:

It was a joke.

[Legbreaker]

Today's joke was yesterday's propaganda.

The SS flag could also have been "just a joke", but there's no way it can been seen in that light while ever there is anyone still alive who experienced the horrors of WWII, or even heard of them from their parents or Grandparents. Maybe in another hundred years....

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Today's joke was yesterday's propaganda.

The SS flag could also have been "just a joke", but there's no way it can been seen in that light while ever there is anyone still alive who experienced the horrors of WWII, or even heard of them from their parents or Grandparents. Maybe in another hundred years....

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

I think that, with all the emoticons in use, many people online have trouble getting sarcasm without them.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by copeab

I think that, with all the emoticons in use, many people online have trouble getting sarcasm without them.

I can agree with that... which is why I put a disclaimer at the bottom of my jab at Waiting4something. I didn't on the other two because I was not targeting anyone here with them and I didn't think they could be interpreted as serious.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Meanwhile... at waiting4something's house.



I'm just playing around with you dude. I don't mean it or anything.

hahahaha..... really cute. I do happen to think the ss sig runes and death head look pretty cool. If that makes me wrong, so be it. I even bought a back plate piece for a Glock that has that style skull and crossbones. It looks good. The lightning bolt style s looks good too. Hell seeing that picture with the KISS flag made me think even KISS uses it. Now if you will excuse me I have to go clean my nazi paraphernalia.

[Panther Al]

Call me weird..


*pauses for people to do so*

I really have to know: whats the point of all that in the pic? That neo-nazi's are loonies is a given, but... the milk and the hood, and all the rest of it?

[waiting4something]

I'm sorry I really still don't see anything wrong with Marine Scout Snipers using sig-rune style letters. If we backdown to everything that some group finds offensive what can we use? We our self become nazi's banning everything. I see no probelm with the stars and bars either. It's like when people have to change a school mascot name because, it offends someone. I don't how we can still have a stars and stripes flag, we did some bad shit under that. As long as your expressions are not taking away someones freedom or physically hurting them there really shouldn't be a issue.

For so reason anything dealing with WWII Germany is always a hot topic. I knew this posting would be more then a few posters. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up locked like the last time. I think the reason why nazi's are always the biggest bad guy on the block issue, is because brainwashing from Hollywood. Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

I really have to know: whats the point of all that in the pic? That neo-nazi's are loonies is a given, but... the milk and the hood, and all the rest of it?

It's from Dany Peschl's photography project called Disturbation. All of the photos in the project are of a similar humorous, caught in the act, WTF style. Interpret it as you see fit.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Would that also apply to jokes in the form of comedy movies based on the second world war? To me, my picture is no different than Kelly's Heroes, Catch-22, or Hogan's Heroes... just a joke.

A movie or television show is seen as the comedy it is. The "enemy" whether they be Germans, Huns, Gengis Khan, Martians or whatever are seen in context.
The photo with the US flag and SS symbol on the other hand has no such context. It's nothing more than a single frame which really can only be taken seriously in one way. If they were all pulling faces or wearing bikini's or something on the other hand....

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A movie or television show is seen as the comedy it is. The "enemy" whether they be Germans, Huns, Gengis Khan, Martians or whatever are seen in context.
The photo with the US flag and SS symbol on the other hand has no such context. It's nothing more than a single frame which really can only be taken seriously in one way. If they were all pulling faces or wearing bikini's or something on the other hand....

I see.... I thought we were talking about my Nazis & kittens photo.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I see.... I thought we were talking about my Nazis & kittens photo.

Nope, I don't see any major problems with either of them. The kitten is essentially just a historical photo and certainly contains nothing at all offensive (besides the fact they're SS soldiers).
The second is just plain weird, and again we have the context thing happening - there's no doubt at all these people are weird and don't in any way conform to the rest of society.

The marines on the other hand are respresentative of a wider and supposedly respected group. They, unlike the individuals in the milk photo who can't really be identified with any respected, mainstream group, should, nay, MUST be hold themselves to a MUCH higher standard.

But I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone else here any of that. It's all fairly standard and obvious I'd think.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

It does in Australia. Many, many older Australians don't like seeing or talking to Japanese tourists even today. Quite a few Australian films have been made about Australia's battles with the Japanese during WWII, but very few about Australia's battles against the Axis forces in Europe. There's still a lot of bad feeling about what the Japanese did to our POWs. I'd say there is a much greater legacy of hate here in modern Australia over the Imperial Japanese forces compared to the forces of Nazi Germany.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

It does in Australia. Many, many older Australians don't like seeing or talking to Japanese tourists even today. Quite a few Australian films have been made about Australia's battles with the Japanese during WWII, but very few about Australia's battles against the Axis forces in Europe. There's still a lot of bad feeling about what the Japanese did to our POWs. I'd say there is a much greater legacy of hate here in modern Australia over the Imperial Japanese forces compared to the forces of Nazi Germany.

Very, very true.
And here I am now, an ex Australian solider chasing the most beautiful woman on the planet, who just happens to be Japanese.... :s

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I'm sorry I really still don't see anything wrong with Marine Scout Snipers using sig-rune style letters. If we backdown to everything that some group finds offensive what can we use? We our self become nazi's banning everything. I see no probelm with the stars and bars either. It's like when people have to change a school mascot name because, it offends someone. I don't how we can still have a stars and stripes flag, we did some bad shit under that. As long as your expressions are not taking away someones freedom or physically hurting them there really shouldn't be a issue.

For so reason anything dealing with WWII Germany is always a hot topic. I knew this posting would be more then a few posters. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up locked like the last time. I think the reason why nazi's are always the biggest bad guy on the block issue, is because brainwashing from Hollywood. Imperial Japan gets nowhere close to the attention level.

I do see something wrong with USMC scout snipers using the exact same style of letters as the SS did for one reason in particular. Intent.
Forget all the other bullshit about people making a fuss about it, lets look at the intent of some scout snipers to use the EXACT same style of lettering as used by an organization that helped to make murder an industrial process.
What is the intent of certain USMC scout snipers to use the same style?

I do agree that there is too much made of the Nazis in many cases but in many other cases there are still people living now who have memories of the atrocities of WW2. It's all about having some empathy for your fellow human beings. If certain scout snipers don't have that quality, then what the hell are they in the USMC for considering it's stated aims and beliefs?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It's all about having some empathy for your fellow human beings.

Yes, exactly. Well put. I used the same word at the bottom of post #14.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And here I am now, an ex Australian solider chasing the most beautiful woman on the planet, who just happens to be Japanese.... :s

And when you catch her you'll 'put her to the sword', no doubt . Good luck, champ!

[Webstral]

The fact that the Nazis receive much more attention than the Imperial Japanese throughout most of the West (with the sentiments of our Aussie and Kiwi cousins excepted and respected) in no way, shape, or form diminishes the crimes of the Nazis or the Japanese. I'm not sure why you bring up the Imperial Japanese, Waiting; typically, though, such a tactic is meant to ameleorate the crimes of the group or individual receiving the negative attention. "Johnny beat a puppy to death, and he doesn't get nearly as much crap as I get for having burned a kitten. I'm being mistreated," is the usual line of thinking.

The Nazis deserve every bit of bile humanity can heap upon them. Without a doubt, there are other groups who have committed heinous crimes on large scales. Whether the Imperial Japanese or any other group in history receives the negative attention they deserve is immaterial in assessing the Nazis. Their evil stands on its own (de)merits. I'd be happy to discuss the evil done by other groups and/or ideologies. Goodness knows such a vein is deep and rich. However, I reject out of hand any suggestion that the Nazis somehow must be given a go because the world isn't harsh enough on the Imperial Japanese, Stalin's Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandese of the 1990's, the Mongols, or whoever. Evil is evil, and it does not get graded on a sliding scale.

Waiting, I'm glad you have a sense of humor about the photo. I seriously thought about exercising my prerogative as a moderator in this instance. Good on you!

I'm saddened that you don't seem to understand the impact of the photo at the top of this thread. I'm troubled that you're confusing the freedom of speech enjoyed by American citizens with the role and responsibilities of members of the US armed forces. I'm saddened by your apparent indifference to the potential impact of such an image on the USMC. The integrity of the Corps is struck a blow by the implication that an ideology alien to the American way of life has taken root in the USMC. This is no garden variety freedom of speech issue. The use of Nazi symbology begs the question of what this unit stands for. If the unit's use of Nazi symbols is tolerated by the Corps, then question of values gets applied to the Corps as a whole. I'm no Marine, but I love the Corps too much to be tolerant of a pack of thoughtless chuckleheads--elite thoughtless chuckleheads, but thoughtless chuckleheads nonetheless--who inspire doubt in the sacred connection between the USMC and the American way of life. We can talk all we want about the pros and cons of the use of the Confederate flag by civilians, but the military doesn't get the freedom of expression it defends.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I'm saddened that you don't seem to understand the impact of the photo at the top of this thread. I'm troubled that you're confusing the freedom of speech enjoyed by American citizens with the role and responsibilities of members of the US armed forces. I'm saddened by your apparent indifference to the potential impact of such an image on the USMC. The integrity of the Corps is struck a blow by the implication that an ideology alien to the American way of life has taken root in the USMC. This is no garden variety freedom of speech issue. The use of Nazi symbology begs the question of what this unit stands for. If the unit's use of Nazi symbols is tolerated by the Corps, then question of values gets applied to the Corps as a whole. I'm no Marine, but I love the Corps too much to be tolerant of a pack of thoughtless chuckleheads--elite thoughtless chuckleheads, but thoughtless chuckleheads nonetheless--who inspire doubt in the sacred connection between the USMC and the American way of life. We can talk all we want about the pros and cons of the use of the Confederate flag by civilians, but the military doesn't get the freedom of expression it defends.

+1. You expressed what I am thinking and feeling better than I could myself.

[Panther Al]

Speaking of a former US Army recruiter, and one that was doing said recruiting during the bad old days of the height of the Iraq war, in a sad way, I am not truly all that shocked by seeing this.

During the 2005/2008 period recruiting was so bad, we would enlist anyone who would pass muster in order to make numbers, and when you work in an area that is known for its Neo-Nazi organisations - and your superiors inform you the only way to get out of the 8 in the morning to midnight or later shifts Mon-Sat was to ignore those associations - provided that there was no legal issues - and put them in uniform, and we had similar issues in the gang areas of the larger cities.

Gang/Extremist infiltration of the US Armed forces is a known problem, and only since the economy went to the crapper have Recruiting been able to turn those sorts away.

Kinda sad it took the recession to allow better recruits to enter service instead of whatever we could drag out of the gutter.

[copeab]

The man who claims to have "outed" the photo gives his reasons why here:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...leblower-talks

[waiting4something]

Oh my god. Leave it up to some holocaust extremist to blow everything out of proportion. The sig runes being a symbol of the holocaust? mmmmmmmmm I don't think so. He was in the cav and wore a stetson, ok so did Custer and a lot of dudes that tried to "extreminate" the natives. Hello pot this is kettle. I hate guys like this. They are right up there with with the Mothers of America and Al Sharpton. I wish Marine Corps told him to piss off and hung up the phone.

[simonmark6]

Sorry, but in my opinion, the Holocaust was rather extreme, and the SS sigils are pretty much up there as symbols of the systematic extermination of millions of people in a far closer manner than a stetson is with the extermination of the Native Americans.

I think you were right Waiting, it's time this thread was shut down before we go back over ground that has already caused offence.

[waiting4something]

No, I don't think it should be shut down. Talking about this is good. It explains reasoning from all sides. I don't see why someone should be offended. There's no degrading of anyone going on really. It's hot topic. It's big bockbuster shit. It always is.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Oh my god. Leave it up to some holocaust extremist to blow everything out of proportion. The sig runes being a symbol of the holocaust? mmmmmmmmm I don't think so. He was in the cav and wore a stetson, ok so did Custer and a lot of dudes that tried to "extreminate" the natives. Hello pot this is kettle. I hate guys like this. They are right up there with with the Mothers of America and Al Sharpton. I wish Marine Corps told him to piss off and hung up the phone.

I was hoping to keep this discussion going in a constructive direction but this is starting to get silly. WFS, your posts are starting to smack of Holocaust Denial. You are welcome to share your dissenting opinions here, but the Holocaust and wider Nazi attrocities and the participation of SS troops in both are backed by mountains- literally mountains- of evidence.

Let's get real and address this topic in a mature, responsible way, or this thread will be shut down.

[Grimace]

Part of the problem I see with that article from the guy who blew the whistle on the thing is that he seems to want military careers to end over this. That, in my opinion, is silly. So they used a flag with SS on it. Did they violate any rules? Did they torture anyone? Did they needlessly kill people who shouldn't have been killed? No.

If the flag is a hot topic for too many, take the flag away or tell the unit to pick a new design. Careers shouldn't end of the display of a flag, even one with a runic SS on it. Will the Marines call bullshit? Most likely. But when political correctness is running the show, that's what the military has to do. Maybe the Commandant of the Marine Corps needs to address the troops and tell them to clean their nose, spit shine their shoes, and sharpen their gig lines for a while. Keep clean while all of the attention is directed on their every little action. Then, when (as usually happens) public opinion forgets about the military, they can go back to the old ways.

I almost hate to think what would happen if the public ever saw some of the symbols used by other special forces.

[Webstral]

Careers shouldn't end over this act of poor judgment. However, some pee-pees should be slapped. The unit should be told that they have to get rid of all Nazi-inspired regalia. Ideally, the Corps will release a public statement by the unit leadership to the effect that they never intended for the American public or the people of the world to assume that they or any part of the USMC incorporates any of the values of Nazi Germany. Then we can move on.

As to the recruiting woes, I agree that we're faced with a real cultural problem. By bringing some of our society's undesirables into the fold for a single enlistment, we create problems for civil society down the road. Training with guns, and all that.

While I'm not willing to take on any of the baggage of the whistle-blower, I will say that association with the Holocaust is damning. Willing, I'll try to put the problem in personal terms in the hopes that you will understand why this particular act of free expression is such a problem for so many. The Nazis were hard-core racists. Racism was built into the ideology. My wife, being black and Asian, is about as far from the Nazi ideal as possible. American Neo-Nazis today, using the same scheme of symbols as the Marines in the photo, proudly proclaim their willingness to follow in the footsteps of the SS and murder their fellow Americans for being black, Asian, Hispanic, First Tribes, Arabic, or whatever. By Nazi standards, my children are mongrels. The Nazis would very happily throw my wife and children into the ovens. By their own admission, so would current American Neo-Nazis. I'm a blood traitor, so I'd get similar treatment. Now the USMC, which is supposed to be champion of the Constitution and the American way of life, appears to be tolerant of a nest of Neo-Nazis in its ranks. Do you see the problem? This isn't a matter of a white guy using the n-word in public. This is a question of values. What exactly do these Marines stand for? If the Corps doesn't deal with the problem expediently, then tens of millions of non-white and mixed-race Americans are obliged to ask whether it's their USMC or just the USMC of the Aryan-Americans and whoever among the white population they deem worthy of having a future.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

It was a joke.

I got that it was a joke. Just one in bad taste, and rife with logical fallacies that screamed to be pointed out.

[ShadoWarrior]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Now the USMC, which is supposed to be champion of the Constitution and the American way of life, appears to be tolerant of a nest of Neo-Nazis in its ranks. Do you see the problem?

Some people can't see the problem, and never will. No matter how succinctly or eloquently it's explained to them. For them, it's either a joke, an exaggeration (how the hell do you 'exaggerate' millions of corpses?), or just plain didn't happen (clue: Photoshop didn't exist in 1945; the pictures and testimony are real). Facts (and reality) conflict with their cherished notions of what they'd like the world to be.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made by posters who can and have done so more eloquently than I can.

but supposedly the runic SS logo has been in use by USMC scout snipers for some time now, have there never been any USMC scout snipers of Jewish descent?