2.X?

[M-Type]

Hello all. Got my hands on an Amazon gift card for Easter, and went to check out what there is to see over there (for T2k stuff at least). They have the T2k 2.0 rule book in my 'price-range', but what's the difference between 2.0 and 2.2? Note: They don't have the 2.2 rule book anywhere on the site.

For all of those in my campaign, I won't be changing up the rules on you guys (80% sure), but I'm looking at this for the long-run, since I know the 2.X is in more high regard.

Thanks for the help!

[Tegyrius]

The big change in 2.2 was an update to the core task resolution mechanic to use GDW's d20 (yes, years before D&D 3rd) house system instead of the previous d10-based engine.

ETA: For some reason, the PDF of the 2.2 rulebook is not available for stand-alone purchase on DriveThruRPG, though it is available as part of the 2.0/2.2 bundle.

- C.

[M-Type]

Think I'd be all set if I bought the 2.0 rule book and the GM Screen? I can drop $5 on the Screen if it'll help.

[Legbreaker]

Character generation and initiative was also tweaked in 2.2. The screen doesn't cover those two issues.
You can look at the screen as a sort of 2.1 - includes some changes, but not all. Twilight Encounters includes pretty much the same 2.1 adjustments.

[Panther Al]

Of the two, my personal opinion is that 2.2 is the better of the two, so would be worth the effort to track down.

Either way, any of the versions can be a great deal of fun.

[M-Type]

Gotcha. I got Twilight Encounters and 1ed, so I'll be content for a while. I will look into getting 2.2.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

What Legbreaker said is correct, the Referee's Screen is indeed Version 2.1 and it has some slight updates to Version 2.0 but it still uses the 1D10 fropm what I recall.
Like others here, I too believe it's worth getting version 2.2 because, in grossly simple terms, it increases your Skill test base.

That is to say: -
Version 2.0 difficulty levels are only three, can't remember them offhand but I think it was Easy, Average, Difficult. All rolled on 1D10
Version 2.2 difficulty levels are five: Easy, Average, Difficult, Formidable, Impossible, all rolled on 1D20 (Note that Impossible does not literally mean it cannot be done, simply that it is very, very difficult).

Plus 2.2 has some cleaning up of some skills and vehicle/weapon stats as well as the careers.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Plus 2.2 has some cleaning up of some skills and vehicle/weapon stats as well as the careers.

I believe that the Autogun skill exists in v2.2 but not in v2.0 and that can make quite a difference.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

I believe that the Autogun skill exists in v2.2 but not in v2.0 and that can make quite a difference.

Correct, however they didn't really explain what autogun covered with enough detail - there's been previous discussions on that very topic.
For example, a strict reading of the rules appears to imply that autogun should be used for any weapon firing bursts - this seems a bit odd given that could be anything from an automatic pistol (such as the Stechin) right up to 40+mm anti aircraft guns fired using radar and computer tracking systems. Obviously a bit of common sense needs to be applied by the GM on a case by case basis.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Correct, however they didn't really explain what autogun covered with enough detail - there's been previous discussions on that very topic.
For example, a strict reading of the rules appears to imply that autogun should be used for any weapon firing bursts - this seems a bit odd given that could be anything from an automatic pistol (such as the Stechin) right up to 40+mm anti aircraft guns fired using radar and computer tracking systems. Obviously a bit of common sense needs to be applied by the GM on a case by case basis.

I'm with Leg here on this: Autogun is an incredibly useful skill, but you have to use common sense with it. I broke it down into a subset, much like small arms: Man Portable (Machine Guns) and Vehicular (IFV Autocannon). While they are both burst weapons, there is enough difference to warrant a skill subset.

[Legbreaker]

I tend to use small arms rifle for bipod mounted weapons and lighter, and autogun for mounted machineguns and up. My experience with the M60 leads me to feel rifle skill is the more appropriate to use on the ground. A character may suffer an initial penalty if they've only ever handled a hunting rifle or shotgun though, at least until they've fired off a few hundred rounds and/or been given formal military training by somebody experienced with the weapon in question.

I also tend to think underbarrel grenade launchers should still be able to be used with rifle skill as it was in 2.0, for direct fire at least. Using indirect fire is another matter which GL skill should be used for.

Automatic grenade launchers are an interesting situation - autogun because they fire bursts, or grenade launcher because they have a fairly slow moving round on an arcing trajectory?

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I tend to use small arms rifle for bipod mounted weapons and lighter, and autogun for mounted machineguns and up. My experience with the M60 leads me to feel rifle skill is the more appropriate to use on the ground. A character may suffer an initial penalty if they've only ever handled a hunting rifle or shotgun though, at least until they've fired off a few hundred rounds and/or been given formal military training by somebody experienced with the weapon in question.

I also tend to think underbarrel grenade launchers should still be able to be used with rifle skill as it was in 2.0, for direct fire at least. Using indirect fire is another matter which GL skill should be used for.

Automatic grenade launchers are an interesting situation - autogun because they fire bursts, or grenade launcher because they have a fairly slow moving round on an arcing trajectory?

So basically less than .50 means rifle, and the larger stuff for Autogun? Makes sense.


With AGL's I split the difference. Autogun for Direct Fire, GL for indirect.

[B.T.]

I let the players decide, wether they use "Small Arms: Rifle" or "Autogun", if they want to fire light or medium MGs.

Up to now I used "Autogun" for heavy MGs and automatic GLs. But it makes some sense to use the Grenade Launcher Skill for indirect fire.

@ Panther Al:
Are there any additional things to bear in mind (Firing bursts with AGLs)?

[boogiedowndonovan]

Hi,

I prefer 2.2 over 2.0, no real reason besides the fact that it is the last version of T2k.

I haven't cracked open the 2.2 rulebook in awhile but one of the big things that players don't like is that the older your character gets, the less skills they can obtain. In 2.0, after first term, your character gains a set number of skill points per term, 4 points I think, that can be allocated amongst your career skills. In 2.2, after first term, your character gets 4 skill points, then as the character ages, the number of skill points decreases. I think they made up for this by giving more first term skills as well as zero level skills (no penalties basically)

of course my players tried to game the system and switch careers every so often but I kinda discouraged that. (no one else wanted to be GM so I got to make the rules). I ways always more into the "role-playing" aspect vs the "roll-playing"

2.2 also replaced the LAV-75 with the M-8 AGS...

[M-Type]

I myself fancy a bit of 'role-playing' over 'roll-playing'.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

So basically less than .50 means rifle, and the larger stuff for Autogun? Makes sense.

More or less. A coaxial weapon would be fired using Autogun though, no matter what the calibre. Same with a tripod mounted 7.62 MG. Basically, if the weapon has it's recoil eliminated as a factor (like a coax) or uses the tripod recoil stats, it's Autogun. If bipod or unsupported recoil, then it's Rifle. There are a few exceptions to the rule though, but they're up to the GM to decide upon.

Originally Posted by B.T.

Are there any additional things to bear in mind (Firing bursts with AGLs)?

When you think about it, it probably doesn't matter too much about AGLs - it's a high explosive round with a burst area, near enough is good enough. With V2.0 it's a 1 in 6 to be dead on target, V2.2 and it's somewhere between 1 in 20 up to 1 in 4 at best. Chances are you're rolling on the scatter table for almost every round sent down range.

Autocannons firing explosive rounds could probably benefit from rolling for scatter too with added emphasis placed on long or short rounds and greater distance if they do fall short or go long.

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I haven't cracked open the 2.2 rulebook in awhile but one of the big things that players don't like is that the older your character gets, the less skills they can obtain. In 2.0, after first term, your character gains a set number of skill points per term, 4 points I think, that can be allocated amongst your career skills. In 2.2, after first term, your character gets 4 skill points, then as the character ages, the number of skill points decreases. I think they made up for this by giving more first term skills as well as zero level skills (no penalties basically)

Almost right. The initial term for 2.0 careers has a set list of skills. Each career has a varying number of skill points to spend buying from the dozen or so skills available. With only a few exceptions, you can change careers every term to get the first term list, but it's hardly worth it - 2 or 3 careers (after education terms) is about the limit. You also drastically reduce your chance of promotion each time you change which directly effects your starting cash and possibly NCO skills.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Almost right. The initial term for 2.0 careers has a set list of skills. Each career has a varying number of skill points to spend buying from the dozen or so skills available. With only a few exceptions, you can change careers every term to get the first term list, but it's hardly worth it - 2 or 3 careers (after education terms) is about the limit. You also drastically reduce your chance of promotion each time you change which directly effects your starting cash and possibly NCO skills.

I had forgotten about the reducing chances of promotion or starting cash. Some of my players didn't care about that. I had one dude who once he found out that 2.2 reduces your skill points as your character ages, threaten to quit. Long story short, he wasn't a good fit and quit anyways.

[Panther Al]

The reducing skill points is the only really serious beef I have as far as chargen goes in 2.2. The way I did it was that the points available was reduced by one every *other* term instead of each term.

[Tegyrius]

I see the design intent but I think the implementation could've been better. Part of the problem is that the end of character creation is still random, so with a series of bad rolls you're just locked into a succession of 1-point phases while watching your attributes creep lower and praying for the war to start...

- C.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I see the design intent but I think the implementation could've been better. Part of the problem is that the end of character creation is still random, so with a series of bad rolls you're just locked into a succession of 1-point phases while watching your attributes creep lower and praying for the war to start...

- C.

That is so true. I saw it happen with one of my players, and went ahead and let him fail a roll automatically when is character hit retirement age.

In hindsight, I should have had a mechanism to cover volunteering for the war. Its 50/50: You take a hit on starting cash, but it maxes out your skills vs. age.

What I am thinking is this: A player can say: Next term is my war term. He doesn't get the double skills it normally allows, but he is still able to take a secondary skill, and one additional MOS skill. Promotions are as normal. Does this make sense, or is it pure crap?

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

What I am thinking is this: A player can say: Next term is my war term. He doesn't get the double skills it normally allows, but he is still able to take a secondary skill, and one additional MOS skill. Promotions are as normal. Does this make sense, or is it pure crap?

When I first ran an adventure to playtest the rules with my actual group, we had all PCs build with 3 terms. Those characters had been omitted after the test run. Every player had a chance to build a new PC. I let them choose:

1) Stick to the rules with a risk to play an old fart with low Agility and Strength or
2) build a character with 4 terms.

Now I would do it a little different: Just let the player decide, how old his PC should be and go for that.

After all, the players should be able, to identify with their characters.

In my group, the most players chose to have a character with 4 terms. The only player, who did it with the original rules (so not knowing, how old he would be) had a special idea in mind: He plays a former Marine Sniper, Gulf War veteran, who later on was a host of a TV cooking show, "Angel cooks", where he introduced the couisine of foreign countries to the TV audience. Therefore we changed the skills, he received during his Media career.

I think, you can build almost any character, if you do not stick to close to the character generation and let players play the characters, they want to. Although I strongly reject to build a bunch of über snake eaters. But thats my personal way and moving this OT.

One last thing: I let the background skills open in the beginning of charater generation and let the players decide on their background skills, when they know, how old the character is. It gives a chance, to flesh out the character more fitting. Someone, who was born in the 50ies would not have Computer skills from the first 17 years of his life.

[Legbreaker]

I tend to allow players to decide before they make the war roll if they want to purposely fail or take their chances. If they choose to end it then they get the same war term skills as normal (double for US regular troops, normal plus secondary activities for European draftees, etc).
It allows a player who knows they're going to loose stats due to age to pull out a bit early, maintaining their attributes, but sacrificing the chance of greater skill (and the possibility of maintaining their attributes anyway if they roll well).

With regards to background and secondary skills, if the player can justify why they should have say mechanic, then I'll probably allow it. Some skills though are just never going to be available outside formal training from the first or subsequent term lists - Nuclear warhead, or any type of heavy weapons for example.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

With regards to background and secondary skills, if the player can justify why they should have say mechanic, then I'll probably allow it. Some skills though are just never going to be available outside formal training from the first or subsequent term lists - Nuclear warhead, or any type of heavy weapons for example.

Yep!