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#151
04-24-2012, 09:20 AM
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I agree with much of what you said Leg but I think they will send more like company size based on their current dispositions in Afghanistan. May be as little as an MP company or a single infantry company but you dont use the fuel it takes to send men over for just 30 men.
And Australia does have good production facilities for ships and subs - i.e. the current series of frigates and the Collins subs. So that could be where they prove beneficial to the US - as a place to repair their ships and refit them. It could be where the special US/Australian relationships comes from that was in 2300AD. I.e. keeping the USN in business (especially if the US helped with Indonesia) was where it all started. 
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#152
04-24-2012, 11:54 AM
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By the way - starting to put down some words on screen (who puts down words on paper anymore by the way?) about the Papuan New Guinea armed forces and a possible start to an Indonesian Australian War based on Papua New Guinea with Australian help doing an all out offensive to end the secession in Bougainville in early 1997 - and leaving themselves wide open to the Indonesians invading, thus starting that conflict.
Definitely a start in looking at an area that really wasnt in the game at all - and could make a great area for adventuring in 2000-2001 time period for Australian and New Zealand characters.
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#153
04-24-2012, 02:52 PM
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Someone put this T2K Australian ORBAT up a while back. Its very detailed but does anybody think its realy sustainable?
1st Australian Armoured Division Subordination: I Australian Corps Current Location: Ahvaz, Iran Manpower: 5,000 Major Weapons: 46x Waler-120, 7x M1A2, 2x M1A1 History: A pre-war regular division known as the 1st Division with 1st Brigade (Mechanised) based in Darwin, NT, 2nd Brigade (Motorised) in Sydney, NSW and 6th Brigade (Motorised) in Brisbane, Qld. The full division was upgraded to armoured status and brought to a combat ready state during the defence build-up of 1995 and 1996. In early 1997 the division was deployed to the Middle East as the core component of the Australian contribution to the widening war between the West and the Soviet Union. The division came under the control of the US Central Command when it arrived at Saudi Arabian ports in February 1997. Attached to the US XVIII Airborne Corps the division was deployed to Iran, disembarking at the port of Abadan on May 3rd and deploying to combat straight off the boat. The division passed through the hard pressed US 82nd Airborne Division to drive the Soviet 104th Guards Air Assault Division out of its positions at Khorramshahr. Several Soviet counter attacks against the Khorramshahr/Abadan pocket were repelled after the 82nd Airborne was withdrawn. In concert with the US 24th Infantry Division (Mechanised) the division attacked northwards from early June towards Ahvaz as part of the US Congress mandated offensive. The attack stalled at the end of July when Soviet forces counterattacked. The division covered the withdrawal of the 24th Infantry from Ahvaz and was itself forced back to Khorramshahr. Tactical nuclear weapons were first used in late August and the division suffered heavy casualties from these weapons. After repelling a Soviet 7th Guards Army attack on October 6th the division launched limited counterattacks to tie down Soviet forces in support of Operation Pegasus II, the allied deep offensive. In late October the division began its drive on Ahvaz, overrunning the Soviet 261st Motorised Rifle Division and cutting off the badly mauled Soviet 24th Guards Motorised Rifle Division which was destroyed by the 24th Infantry. While the 24th Infantry took Ahvaz, the division leapfrogged northwards capturing Dezful. By the new year the two divisions had secured the entire Khuzestan Plain and linked up with the 82nd Airborne. On 26/1/98 the division linked up with the newly deployed 2nd Australian Armoured Division and the New Zealand Division to form I Australian Corps. Most of 1998 was spent in local security missions attempting to deal with the growing crisis caused by the GNE of late 1997. The Soviet 7th Guards Army launched another offensive in early August but this attack was repelled. In June 1999 the Soviets again launched an offensive but this faltered because of the collapse of their Iraqi allies leaving the Australians in control of the Khuzestan Plain. 2nd Australian Armoured Division Subordination: I Australian Corps Current Location: Dezful/Shushtar, Iran Manpower: 5,500 Major Weapons: 48 x Waler-AGV History: The division headquarters was formed 18/11/95 at Holsworthy Barracks, NSW and took under command the pre-war reserve 11th Brigade based in Townsville, Qld and the 13th Brigade from Perth, WA. The newly formed 1st Armoured Brigade in Sydney, NSW, brought the division to full strength. Mobilised under the general mobilisation order after the first US troops crossed the East German border in December 1996, the division was brought to full strength and began intensive training for conversion to armoured levels. The division was deployed along with the headquarters of I Australian Corps to Saudi Arabia during June/July 1997 to reinforce US Central Command and the 1st Australian Armoured Division. The division was responsible for security of the vital Saudi Arabian ports and oil fields along the north west coast of the Persian Gulf. Deployed to Iran on the eve of 1998 the division linked up with the 1st Australian Armoured under I Australian Corps control. After defeating two separate Soviet attacks the division has remained as a security force for the Khuzestan Plain, vital for its agriculture. 3rd Australian Armoured Division Subordination: III Australian Corps Current Location: Central NSW Manpower: 14,000 Major Weapons: 98 x Waler-AGV History: The division was formed 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Brisbane with three brigades, the 2nd Armoured based in Wagga Wagga, NSW, the 3rd Armoured based in Woodside, SA and the 4th Armoured based in Puckapunyal, VIC. The division was deployed to South Australia, where it took advantage of this state’s large military training areas and defence infrastructure to train and equip for mechanised combat. SA was hit the hardest by the GNE with eight nuclear warheads detonating within 24 hours on "Ash Sunday," November 2, 1997, causing considerable destruction and nuclear fallout. The GNE and subsequent chaos decimated 7th Division and it was almost destroyed during its attempts to bring order to SA. The division was pulled out as part of the general evacuation of Adelaide during the summer of 97/98 and was transferred to Puckapunyal, Vic for rest and refitting. Once it was ready for operations again, in late 1999, the division was used to cover the general evacuation from the interior of Australia. Since then the 7th Division has provided the primary covering force for the line of control through central NSW and south eastern Queensland. The divisions main role is long range fire sweeps into uncontrolled areas, assisting local governments and trying to wipe out marauder groups and challenges to Australian Theatre’s authority. 1st Australian Division Subordination: III Australian Corps Current Location: Victoria Manpower: 16,000 Major Weapons: 14x Leopard 1 History: The division was formed as a reserve formation on 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Melbourne with three brigades; the 14th based in Melbourne, Vic, the 15th based in Puckapunyal, Vic and the 16th with units across SA, WA and Tas. The division was mobilised on 1/1/97 and tasked with the security of southern and central WA including Perth, Kalgoorlie and the Pilbara. The division was severely damaged by the nuclear strikes on the Perth region and suffered heavy casualties trying to quell civil disturbance during the summer of 97/98. After the division’s positions in the west became untenable it was withdrawn to Victoria in late 1998. The division was brought up to full strength during a spell of rest and recovery at Puckapunyal Barracks, Vic. Australian Theatre then allocated the division the ‘fire brigade’ role for security in the 3rd Military District area. 2nd Australian Division Subordination: II Australian Corps Current Location: Ceram, Ambon, Morotai, Halmahera and Timor Manpower: 7,500 Major Weapons: 10x Leopard 1, 8x OH-58D History: A pre-war reserve division with 5th Brigade based in Sydney, NSW, 7th Brigade in Brisbane, Qld and 8th Brigade in Newcastle, NSW. The division was upgraded to ready reserve status (about half full time personnel) and brought to a combat ready state during the defence build-up of 1995 and 1996. Mobilised in December 1996 as the US entered the war against the Soviet Union the division was deployed in security roles across North Eastern Australia. The division deployed its 7th Brigade to Papua New Guinea (PNG) in late 1997 to quell increasing urban and rural violence caused by the global destruction of the general nuclear exchange (GNE). When Indonesia attacked PNG in January 1998 the 7th Brigade held of the Indonesian 17th and 18th Airborne Brigades’ assault on Port Moresby. Reinforced by the rest of 2nd Division the Australian and PNG counterattack overrun the remaining Indonesian forces south of the highlands during operations in February. 2nd Division, reinforced by the 1st and 3rd Battalions of the Royal Pacific Islands Regiment then began a series of amphibious and airmobile strikes against the Indonesian cantonments across the northern shore of PNG. On the 3rd July 1998 the division captured Jayapura in West Papua (Irian Jaya) nominally Indonesian territory. Coming under II Australian Corps, the now veteran 2nd Division became the main force in the 1999 offensive into Eastern Indonesia. This offensive quickly captured the rest of West Papua, the Moluccan Islands and East Timor. The Australian forces meet little effective resistance as most of the Indonesian battle ready units, warships and combat aircraft had been destroyed the year before in Papua New Guinea. In fact many of the local communities greeted the Australians as liberators from Javanese control. 2nd Division spent the rest of 1999 and most of 2000 establishing II Corps authority across the newly occupied Indonesian territory. With the growing schism between II Corps commanding general MAJGEN Thurston and the Governor-General, Australian Theatre Commander and effective head of what is left of a central Australian government, GEN Walker, 2nd Division has declared its support to II Corps. The division is no longer responding to orders directly from Northern Command or Australian Theatre, it is only loyal to II Corps. 3rd Australian Division Subordination: Northern Command Current Location: North and North West Australia Manpower: 10,000 Major Weapons: 10x Leopard 1, 6x OH-58D History: A pre-war reserve division the 3rd included the 4th and 12th Brigades in Melbourne, Vic and the 9th Brigade in Adelaide, SA. The division was called out on 20 December 1996 as the war in China and Germany escalated into global conflict. Deployed to the Northern Territory and North West WA the division became the primary security force of Northern Command. The GNE hardly effected the division, as all nuclear strikes on Australia were to the south of its operational area and prevailing monsoonal winds at this time were northerly. Also the low population of northern Australia meant the division was spared the heavy toll of the post GNE disease outbreaks and civil disruption. The division is still controlling the Northern Command enclaves at the vital resource extraction centres across North Western Australia. 4th Australian Division Subordination: II Australian Corps Current Location: Papua New Guinea, Irian Jaya, Far North Queensland Manpower: 10,000 Major Weapons: 4x OH-58D History: The division was formed 26/1/96 at Victoria Barracks, Sydney with three brigades, the 16th based in Sydney, NSW, the 17th based in Brisbane, Qld and the 18th based in Newcastle, NSW. The division was filled with many ready reserve soldiers and recalled ex-servicemen, all with at least one years full time service, which enabled the division to come to a combat ready level reasonably quickly. The division took over security roles for the South Eastern corner of Australia during 1997 and was being prepared for service in the Middle East when the GNE caused considerable destruction. The division was able to avoid direct damage from the nuclear exchange but was heavily pressed in diaster relief and, at sometimes, quite brutal suppression of civil disorder. With the south east generally calm after the summer of 97/98 and with the 3rd Australian Armoured Division, 5th and 6th Australian Divisions deployed in the area, the 4th was moved by sea to PNG to reinforce II Australian Corps for the counteroffensive against the Indonesian forces. While 2nd Australian Division moved down the northern coast of PNG, 4th Division assaulted Indonesian forces on Manus Island and then prepared for the assault against Rabual. The two Australian brigades that landed at Rabual, not only faced the defending Indonesian brigade but the full fury of a volcanic eruption. The Rabual area was evacuated after 4th Division quickly offered diaster relief to the local population and most of the Indonesian forces that had surrendered after being caught between the ‘the frying-pan and the fire-place’. While 2nd Division moved into Eastern Indonesia in early 1999, 4th Division took up a rear area security task. This was no easy mission since it was responsible for the entire New Guinea Island; the world’s second largest island with the most rugged terrain in the world. 4th Division is still in control of New Guinea and is in fact the only effective authority in this region, something which II Corps exploits to the full. The division is no longer responding to orders directly from Northern Command or Australian Theatre; it is only loyal to II Corps. 5th Australian Division Subordination: III Australian Corps Current Location: East NSW Manpower: 16,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: The division was formed on 25 April 1997 and was primarily made up of newly trained conscripts, though its 28th Brigade and some divisional elements comprised pre-war reserve training units. The division was tasked with security for the state of New South Wales and was intended to relieve the 3rd Australian Division in northern Australia, so that this formation could be deployed to the Middle East. The GNE and the Indonesian invasion of PNG ended these plans and the 5th Division has stayed on in NSW providing local security and disaster relief since its formation. The division was brought up to strength in early 1999 by comb-outs of surplus Navy and Air Force personnel. The division currently forms a border guard force across the ‘Newell Line’ in central NSW. 6th Australian Division Subordination: III Australian Corps Current Location: South East Queensland Manpower: 14,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: The division was formed on 25 April, 1997 and was primarily made up of newly trained conscripts, with some divisional elements comprising pre-war reserve training units. The division was tasked with security for the state of Victoria and was intended to relieve the 2nd Australian Division in northern Australia and PNG, so that they could be deployed to the Middle East. The GNE and the subsequent Indonesian invasion of PNG ended these plans and the 6th Division was deployed to Queensland to secure the supply lines to II Corps in PNG. While the division was readied to deploy to PNG, the success of the Australian counter invasion meant it wasn’t required and since the required transport wasn’t available anyway the division stayed in South and Central Queensland. The division was forced to withdraw to the south east corner of Queensland due to increasing lawlessness and now forms a powerful guard force against any incursions into the controlled zone. The New Zealand Division Subordination: I Australian Corps Current Location: Khorramshahr, Iran Manpower: 3,500 Major Weapons: 10x M1A1 History: The ‘fireball’ division was formed on 10 February, 1997, comprising the 4th and 7th Brigades and was deployed to the Middle East as reinforcements to the 3rd Australian Expeditionary Force later in the year. All division elements had arrived in Saudi Arabian ports by October 1997. The division is made up of motorised and mechanised infantry, equipped with HMMWV and M113 vehicles, the divisional armoured regiment is a mix of Scorpion light tanks and M1s supplied by the US Army. The division has been under I Australian Corps since early 1998 and has partaken in all the battles for the Khuzestan Plain area of Iran. 1st Military District Subordination: Australian Theatre Current Location: South East Queensland Manpower: 10,000 Major Weapons: 6x Leopard 1 History: A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Queensland. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Brisbane the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Queensland on 1/1/99. Given the regional security role several battalions of local infantry were raised across the district to provide local defence. These forces operated on a one month active/one month inactive rotation. Due to infrastructure damage and increasing lawlessness the districts area of authority has been reduced to an area south east of a line from the town of St. George to the coast at Bundaberg with a small enclave around Rockhampton and Gladstone. 2nd Military District Subordination: Australian Theatre Current Location: East NSW Manpower: 45,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of New South Wales. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Sydney the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in NSW on 1/1/99. The district’s area of authority has been reduced to the area east of the Newell Highway in central NSW. Several inland cantonments are under military authority but beyond these areas and the periodic fire sweeps most of NSW is on its own. 3rd Military District Subordination: Australian Theatre Current Location: Victoria Manpower: 40,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Victoria. Headquartered in Victoria Barracks, Melbourne the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Victoria on 1/1/99. The district controls virtually all of the state of Victoria, except for a few isolated areas. 5th Military District Subordination: Northern Command Current Location: South West Western Australia Manpower: 6,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area roughly aligned to the state of Western Australia. Headquartered in Irwin Barracks, Perth the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Western Australia on 1/1/99. The 5th Military District has been reduced to the area between Perth and Albany in the south-west corner of WA. Also some cantonments in the north centred on the Pilbara are under the control of a brigade from the 3rd Australian Division. The district is under heavy pressure from the wild lawless elements operating out of Kalgoorlie-Boulder and is maintaining its area of control through particularly harsh martial law. 6th Military District Subordination: None Current Location: Tasmania Manpower: 5,000 Major Weapons: 0 History: A pre-war administrative command responsible for an area aligned to the state of Tasmania. Headquartered at Battery Point, Hobart the district took over all remaining civil authority as well as local naval and air forces in Tasmania on 1/1/99. However after this date the district ceased responding to central authority on the Australian mainland. The district controls most of Tasmania on a collective basis with local civilian authorities and is intent on ignoring the rest of the world, beyond the odd mainland, Japanese and French trading vessel. 1st Cavalry Brigade Subordination: I Australian Corps Current Location: Khuzestan Plain, Iran Manpower: 800 Major Weapons: 20x Waler-AGV History: The brigade headquarters was formed 17/10/95 at Puckapunyal, Vic and took under command pre-war reserve armoured regiments from NSW and newly formed units. The brigade was structured and trained as an armoured reconnaissance formation on a TO&E very similar to a US Army Armoured Cavalry Regiment. Fully equipped with modern vehicles the brigade deployed to the Middle East with Headquarters I Australian Corps to act as its heavy reconnaissance and screening force. While I Corps secured Saudi ports the brigade was attached to 1st Australian Armoured Division in Iran. The brigade entered combat against Soviet mechanised forces in support of Pegasus II offensive. 1st Cavalry Brigade operated as far north as Kabir Kuh in support of 1st Armoured Division’s drive on Dezful. In 1998 the brigade patrolled the Iraqi border with frequent cross border operations to disrupt Iraqi logistic support of Soviet forces. The brigade suffered heavy casualties in the July 1999 Soviet offensive and it was temporary cut off by advancing Iraqi divisions. However remaining a fighting force behind Iraqi lines contributed to their collapse and the depleted brigade was able to link up with the rest of I Corps. After rest and refit the brigade has taken on a ‘fire brigade’ mission to reinforce threatened areas of the Khuzestan Plain. 2nd Cavalry Brigade Subordination: Northern Command Current Location: Darwin, NT Manpower: 2,500, 1,000 cavalry Major Weapons: 14x Waler-AGV History: The brigade was formed 26/1/96 at Robertson Barracks, Darwin, NT as Northern Command’s reconnaissance formation. The 2nd Cavalry was never brought up to full mechanised scales with half of its squadron’s relaying on motorised transport. 3rd Cavalry Brigade Subordination: III Australian Corps Current Location: Dubbo, NSW Manpower: 2,000 cavalry Major Weapons: 0 History: The brigade was raised on 12/3/99 at Puckapunyal, Vic as a fully horse mounted formation. 3rd Infantry Brigade (Airborne) Subordination: II Australian Corps Current Location: Cairns, Queensland Manpower: 1,500 Major Weapons: 10x OH-58D History: A pre war regular brigade headquartered at Lavarack Barracks, Townsville, Qld. The 3rd Brigade was kept at a high state of readiness as Australia’s strategic reserve until April 1996 when it was deployed in a lightning strike against Bougainville separatists in PNG. The brigade combined with local forces and carried out a successful strike on the separatists and was able to re-open the contested Pangua copper mine. The brigade returned to Townsville, Qld in early 1997 and resumed its role as a regional ready reaction force. In response to the Indonesian invasion of PNG the brigade launched a successful airborne assault on Wewak, PNG. From this base the brigade was able to disrupt Indonesian lines of communication through the successful counterattack by PNG forces and the 2nd and 4th Divisions. During the successful counter invasion of eastern Indonesia in early 1999, the brigade was responsible for capturing East Timor. The brigade launched its second airborne assault on the town of Biablo from where it interdicted East and West Timor. Local counterattacks from Indonesian security forces were defeated by the brigade linking up with local anti Indonesian forces. The brigade was withdrawn to Cairns, Qld in October 1999 and replaced in East Timor by units of the 2nd Division. The brigade now serves as a reserve force for II Australian Corps and is no longer accepting orders from Northern Command or Australian Theatre. The Special Air Service Regiment Subordination: I Australian Corps Current Location: Dezful, Iran Manpower: 350 Major Weapons: 0 History: The regimental headquarters of the Australian SAS was deployed to the Middle East to take operational control over several special forces sub-units. 1st Commando Regiment Subordination: II Australian Corps Current Location: Port Moresby, PNG Manpower: 250 Major Weapons: 0 7th Commando Regiment Subordination: Australian Theatre Current Location: Sydney, NSW Manpower: 400 Major Weapons: 0 The Tactical Assault Group (SAS) Subordination: Australian Theatre Current Location: Melbourne, Vic Manpower: 200 Major Weapons: 0 The Tasmanian Defence Brigade Subordination: 6th Military District Current Location: Tasmania Manpower: 2,500, 1,000 cavalry Major Weapons: 0
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#154
04-24-2012, 03:21 PM
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However, I agree that it simply would not be worth the fuel to send anything smaller than a Company anywhere. Our Military Police don't operate in the same manner as US Army MP Companies do, the MPs are usually sent in small groups to where ever they are required. They don't have the assets or personnel to do something like convoy escort like the US MPs do.
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#155
04-24-2012, 03:53 PM
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I think that the Waler listed here is meant to be the new armoured vehicle from Project Whaler of the mid-1980s. In real-life, bureaucrats and arm-chair strategists decided the Australian Army didn't need a medium/heavy protected troop carrier so the project went nowhere. I just don't see that with the disorganized state of Australia (and lack of central control) as listed in the main books, that the Federal Government could muster the resources or manpower to supply such a massive army (these figures total about 220,000) in the Twilight War.
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#156
04-24-2012, 03:59 PM
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I looked at the order of battle and I think its too big for what Australia could put in the field unless they totally mobilized the country and even then not sure they could equip it.
And I dont see Australia getting hit by nukes in the timeline - they just arent that good a target for nukes when places like Chicago never got touched - let alone important military production facilities like the United Defense plant in York PA or Anniston Army Depot. They just arent a real threat to the Soviets as they are. Now once Australia starts being very important to the US once a lot of their facilities in the US are getting either abandoned or overrun by marauders - sure - but thats not till late 1998 early 1999 - and by then both countries are done with using nukes for the most part. Plus - if Australia is wiped out by nukes or collapses I dont see the special relationship in 2300 AD happening - but having them there to help the US restart again thats different - even if a lot of the interior of the country ends up looking like Mad Max due to fuel shortages for a few decades.
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#157
04-24-2012, 04:03 PM
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Could I see Australia raising perhaps 5-6 Divisions of men - yes that could be done as long as arms could be found for them - even if a lot of them are armed with civilian weapons initially or civilian vehicles converted to military use (they sure have enough good off road vehicles)
And with the coal reserves they have getting power for their industry shouldnt be that much of an issue.
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#158
04-24-2012, 04:58 PM
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Australia actually does have a significant vehicle production capacity. General Dynamics builds the ASLAV in Adelaide and Thales Australia makes the Bushmaster & Hawkei in Bendigo and Wingfield, and there are commercial car and light vehicle factories in Adelaide (GM-Holden), Melbourne (Ford, IVECO, Toyota) and Geelong (Ford), a truck factory in Brisbane (Mack) and engine factories in Geelong (Ford) and Melbourne (GM-Holden).
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#159
04-24-2012, 06:44 PM
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There was also significant loss of production in the 1990s due to the growth of the Korean car manufacturers and the end of Nissan production in Australia in 1992. The cheaper Korean imports caused major losses for local car makers and they cut the number of models offered and staff numbers to save money. It was widely felt in the early 1990s that the Australia auto industry would be in major decline by the 2000s We are undoubtedly able to produce armoured vehicles, design studies were conducted in the 1980s when Project Whaler was being examined and they found that we had all the necessary infrastructure but were somewhat lacking in experience. Having the infrastructure was one thing, political will and military necessity are other things again and at the time the political will was lacking. Nothing was really done to address this until the late 1990s - outside the timeframe of Twilight: 2000. For example, I believe the ASLAV production in South Australia was begun in the early 2000s. The Global War On Terror gave the Australian Government the political will to invest in these facilities but for the Twilight War, I'd argue that the Australian Government would probably feel insulated from the war in Europe and would not see any urgent need to commence our own armoured vehicle production until the war with Indonesia. By that time, it would be too late. By 2000, the country as described in the books, is in a state of chaos with significant breakdown of central government. Starting a project to build armoured vehicles would be very much a localized affair suffering all the problems that that would entail. Certainly some projects may have been started in the 1996-2000 period but with the gradual breakdown of central authority, I can't see them having much more than a limited run of vehicles at best. Small arms, grenades & other explosives, uniforms and light vehicles are another matter again. The infrastructure for these has existed for quite some time but they too would suffer after the breakdown of central authority because their components are often sourced from either outside the nation or in areas within the nation separated by large distances.
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#160
04-24-2012, 08:18 PM
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#161
04-24-2012, 09:42 PM
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 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#162
04-24-2012, 11:05 PM
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From the start, the logic of the nuclear exchange has been to gain advantage without initiating a general strategic US-USSR exchange. Each nuke used in the US-USSR strategic exchange had a place in this logic. Washington D.C. gets hit because it is the US seat of power. New York, the nation’s most populous city, does not. Moscow gets hit because it is the seat of Soviet power. The rest of the targets are very important military targets, like SAC HQ, or refineries. The strikes on Los Angeles wipe out the city as a matter of collateral damage, not deliberate policy. The Soviets calculate that knocking out the electricity and petroleum refining will ruin the American war economy without inviting retaliatory strikes against Soviet population centers as a whole. The allies, on the other hand, are a different story. If the US is playing a game of even exchange, which is about the only way to prevent MAD from becoming a reality, then nuclear attacks on US allies shouldn’t bring about attacks on the USSR. As I tried to point out already, Soviet attacks on Canada, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand should not result in American attacks on Soviet targets, provided the Americans read the signs correctly. If one looks at the Canada hit list, Canada gets hit a lot harder than the US on a per capita basis. Clearly, the Soviets weren’t that worried about retaliation for beating the crap out of Canada. Australia has raw materials, energy resources, industry, and a well-educated population. In the post-Exchange world, an intact Australia poses a threat to Soviet interests. The Soviets know perfectly well that it may take a century to repair all of the damage from the Exchange. If any Western nation, or for that matter any nation not under the thumb of the Soviets, is left with the kinds of assets possessed by Australia or France in 1997, that nation gets a massive advantage in the reshuffling of global power that will occur in the early 21st Century. The Soviets are not the kind of people to permit this. The US got off comparatively lightly because the US had the means to annihilate the Soviet Union if the Soviets got carried away. Australia lacks even the deterrent that France possesses. With all sympathy to my Australian compatriots, I think GDW’s portrayal of Australia as being hard hit shows Soviet thinking accurately.
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#163
04-25-2012, 06:13 AM
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#164
04-25-2012, 06:50 AM
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The Australian OOB RN7 reposted above is complete rubbish for the reasons others have posted. The "Tasmanian Brigade" as just one example is near impossible! IRL, Tasmania has on paper an infantry Battalion plus a handful of small support units (one artillery battery of just a few 81mm mortars, medical unit, admin and transport (a few trucks). Total manpower right now is about 2-300, with most of them in the infantry "Battalion" (which only has one company with a platoon in Devonport, Launceston and Hobart, the state capital).
The population of the entire state can't support much more than that for long (about 400,000 people) and after the three population centres listed above, the next largest town only has 19,000. So, a sustainable force of 3,500 in addition to the Tasmanians the writer assigned to his 1st Aus Division? Not a chance! Also, the 3rd Airborne "Brigade" is nothing more than a Battalion. Last year (2011) it changed from an airborne (Parachute) battalion to only having a "smaller high-readiness Airborne Combat Team". http://www.3rar.com/3rarhistory.html I believe the original writer may have been confused about what a "Regiment" is in Australia. Basically, regiment is an infantry term. RAR is Royal Australian Regiment, RNSWR is Royal New South Wales Regiment, RQR is Royal Queensland Regiment and so forth. RAR is regular army, the rest are reserve and organised on state lines. The Tasmanians mentioned above IRL are 12/40 Battalion RTR and a part of 9th Brigade, with in turn is a component of 2nd Division.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#165
04-25-2012, 09:30 AM
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I think Australian in T2K could support an army of no more than four divisions and maybe a few independent units. This would include all the reserves and two of those divisions are going to be light infantry divisions at best. However in WW2 Australia did actually put together a large army. On paper the Australian Army was very large; two armoured divisons (1, 3) twelve infantry divisions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) of which two were motorised at one time, and two independent armoured brigades. One million Australians served in the armed forces including 727,000 in the army, and 397,000 served overseas. However both of the armoured divsions and five of the infantry divisions never left Australia and were reserve & training units, three of the active infantry divisions (3, 5, 11) were formed from militia and the 8th Infantry Division surrendered to the Japanese in Malaya in 1942 and was never reformed.
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#166
04-25-2012, 10:21 AM
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Have seen the comments about Australia getting heavily nuked and on this one I will say I totally agree with Legbreaker - I dont see it happening - for one I doubt Australia may have even been involved in the war in 1997 and 1998 except possibly with Indonesia in a local war
Face it - Greece, Italy, France and Belguim did not fight on the NATO side - the chance of a non-NATO country not getting involved in the war is rather high given that fact Now could the Soviets have hit their oil production capabilities - ok thats a possibility - but even then if Mombasa isnt a big hole in the ground (i.e. its obvious from Frank Frey that the refinery is still there) then it means that they didnt hit every refinery in every neutral country And also Australia is very remote - hitting Mexico and Saudi heck yes - you dont hit the US and leave Mexican facilities alone and intact As for Canada - its a NATO nation that sent troops to fight the Russians - you do that, you can get nuked But I highly doubt, outside of volunteers that on their own went to the UK to join up with the fighting, that any Australian unit in the early part of the war when the nukes were still flying ever deployed to Europe However Kenya, Korea, Vietnam, possibly the RDF - yes there I could see it happening but even then until Indonesia and New Guinea is settled not much beyond possibly a company or two here and there or possibly Special Forces types Oh and volunteer units could have been large - I could see the country officially being neutral and several thousand Aussies heading out to join up - or they could have been a token force of a few hundred
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#167
04-25-2012, 11:54 AM
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People are going to have to believe what fits their preferred narrative when it comes to nuclear actions against Australia. It makes me smile, though, to read fussing about where a few ships in the Persian Gulf might have gone during the 1997-2000 period, then read that Soviets essentially have gone all fluffy bunny and decided that Australia will be spared nuclear attention because they really weren’t that involved in the war. It’s like after two years of conventional war, Western treachery, the deaths of millions of Soviet troops and citizens, the crippling of Soviet industry, and the loss of the paradigm of the USSR as a global power they’ve found a way to bring out their inner sunshine instead of using a small portion of their massive nuclear arsenal to establish a more tolerable post-war global balance of power at little cost to themselves. It’s nice.
“First, military targets were hit. Then industrial targets clearly vital to the war effort. Then economic targets of military importance. Then transportation and communications, oil fields and refineries. Then major industrial and oil centers in neutral nations, to prevent their possible use by the other side (emphasis added)(p. 26, Referee’s Manual).”
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#168
04-25-2012, 12:06 PM
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Australians today, and even 20 years ago are a totally different animal to those of the 1930's and 40's - Vietnam saw to that.
It's hard for reserve units to maintain even 25% strength in peacetime with tax free pay, and all the other benefits, start throwing the possibility of being killed into the mix and voluntary recruitment will drop. Conscription may fill out the numbers, but it will also put any government who tries it out of power for decades in about 5 seconds flat, and they know it. Right now we have a paper strength of two woefully understrength divisions. In T2K where we don't have a clear enemy of our own (until Indonesia) and only a small UN presence to worry about (Korea perhaps and Cyprus), there'll be no obvious need to increase recruitment soon enough to make a serious difference. In WWII, we still had ironclad links to the UK and many people still felt somewhat British at heart, or at least their parents and grandparents certainly did. It was our DUTY as Commonwealth citizens to join up and go fight the Nazi's who were putting the motherland at threat. Then, when Singapore fell, virtually all Australian units were brought home as fast as transport could be found for them - only individuals and small units stayed behind. Australia only raised such a large army at the time because we had no hope of help from elsewhere - the British were pinned down at home and bogged in Africa, the rest of the Commonwealth were assisting them, and the US were still neutral. Once the US came on board, our military started to be downsized as it had been completely unsustainable - there were serious shortages of food, equipment, and machines for the soldiers, and even less available for the civilians, even with the militia only being part time soldiers for the most part. Now admittedly that was when we had a much smaller population than today, however even if Australia was subject to only a handful of nukes to take out the industrial capabilities (or part thereof) of the major cities, we'd suffer some pretty damn high casualties since roughly 80% of our population lives in those locations. At best we may have three Divisions, but more likely the two current ones would be brought up to strength (in manpower, if not heavy equipment) and an "adequate" supply of reserves trained and probably used in civil defence duties until called up as replacements.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#169
04-25-2012, 04:22 PM
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Is has always puzzled me how people think that WW2 led to a dramatic shift in Australia's relationship with Britain and closer links with America, when in fact the oppinion of the Australian military was as critical of America as it was of Britain in regards to its treatment and use of Australian soldiers. Sure after the war America was the new super power and Britain couldn't afford an empire anymore, and after 1970 there where no British forces left East of Cyprus other than the Gurkhas and a few garrison units in Hong Kong, so its obvious why Australia drew militarily closer to America.
But when war broke out in Europe it was logical to see why Britain used ANZAC troops as its own troops were tied up fighting the Germans and Italians, and it was very easy to to ship ANZAC reinforcements to North Africa and the Far East. The fact that Australian troops weren't immediately transferred back to Australia to defend the country when war broke out with Japan, and Singapore fell was due to poor political leadership in both Australia as well as Britain. What is not logical is how America failed to fully utilise Australian troops in the Pacific from 1942. When MacArthur fled to Australia after the fall of the Philippines Australian troops accounted for nearly all the land forces under his command, as well as a substantial proportion of the air and naval forces present in the south Pacific. Although the US quickly started to build up its own forces in the area, Australian forces were only realy used for secondary roles such flanking US forces or mopping up operations once the US forces had been moved on to another assignment or battleground. This has always puzzled me as the Australian soldier had a very good reputation before WW2, with training levels as good as any British soldier and coming from a culture similar in many ways to the US soldier; largely white and superior in physical health and education to the majority of the brown or black troops from India and Africa that Britain used in Burma and the Middle East.
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#170
04-25-2012, 05:25 PM
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Looking back over the old comments in the thread, I’m struck by a few ideas.
1) The idea that nuclear strikes on targets in Australia might not be “worth it”. 2) The idea that Australia might sit entirely on the sidelines 3) The idea that there is some sort of spirit of fair play such that the light treatment given to CONUS results in an even lighter treatment of Australia 4) The idea that the absence of evidence of Aussie and Kiwi involvement in the fighting in Korea amounts to evidence of absence In 1997, the Soviets have thousands of warheads and hundreds of delivery systems. France and the UK might have to worry about whether a given strike is “worth it”. The US and the USSR don’t have to worry about wasting nukes. Even if 75% of the delivery systems are destroyed prior to November 1997, they have more than enough to do all of the work discussed in the written materials and have hundreds left over. Their issue is whether they want to pay in form of absorbing retaliatory strikes. Long before 1997, the Soviets have allocated more than enough resources to turn Australia into Mad Max land. By the 1980’s, they’ve already figured out how they are going to get enough warheads there to turn the urban centers into glass parking lots. Just as there are redundancies for ensuring every other target of interest is incinerated three times over, there are redundancies for getting warheads to Australia. The Soviets aren’t the sort of people to allow their strategic planning to be upended by the loss of a single boomer. At the risk of beating a dead horse, Australia and New Zealand are partners in ANZUS. I know the US-New Zealand part of ANZUS is dysfunctional as of 1996. However, the New Zealand-Australia part is functioning just fine, as is the Australia-US portion. That amounts to guilty by association in the Soviet book. I’ve said it many times, but it seems to bear repeating yet again. The US gets lighter treatment than a general exchange because the US is in a position to retaliate in kind. The USSR also gets lighter treatment than we’d expect from a general exchange for the very same reason. This has nothing to do with good-heartedness or fair play on the part of the Soviets. They’d love to go after York, PA. But they aren’t willing to have the US hit a major Soviet arms factory in return. That logic changes when it comes to the non-nuclear Western allies, since none of them can retaliate with nuclear weapons. One of the arguments for distinguishing between Canada and Australia is that Canada actively participates in combat against the Pact. It would be great if a Korea sourcebook had been published such that the presence of Australian troops in Korea could be established. But let’s think it through. The DPRK invades the ROK in late 1996. The Left in Australia probably would argue that the North invades the South only in response to German and Anglo-American provocation in Europe. There would be some validity to this viewpoint. However, the fact remains that the ROK has been invaded by another country. Australia can fight to defend the ROK’s sovereignty without endorsing any of the actions undertaken by NATO in Europe or the West in the Persian Gulf. Moreover, there’s ANZUS. US forces are under attack in the ROK. Australia is signatory to a treaty that states that an attack on one signatory in the Pacific basin is an attack on the other signatories. We don’t have much knowledge regarding events in Korea. The history of 2nd Infantry Division states “The division was first engaged against North Korean commando units on 12/19/96 and by 1/3/97 was actively engaged against mechanized elements of the North Korean Army. The division participated in holding actions along the 38th Parallel throughout the first half of 1997…(US Army Vehicle Guide, p. 5)” The other US formations in Eighth US Army arrived in Korea after the fighting started. This is a reasonable basis for concluding that the North Koreans initiated offensive action. Therefore, regardless of what Australia thinks of the war in Germany, the ROK is under attack by a foreign power not associated with events in Europe or the Middle East. A fellow ANZUS signatory is under attack by a foreign power not associated with events in Europe or the Middle East. Surely this constitutes a reasonable basis for the deployment of a ANZAC brigade, plus supporting sea and air assets. Thus while we have no categorical evidence one way or another, we have good reason to believe that Australia was involved in the fighting in Korea on the side of the Allies.
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#171
04-25-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#172
04-25-2012, 05:41 PM
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Australians in Korea
Legbreaker and I both referenced Challenge #30 earlier in this thread. Here's the quote in question.
Quote:
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#173
04-25-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
At one point during WW2, there were so many volunteers coming forward that the Australian government actually stopped men from joining the military because the drain on the workforce was becoming too severe. Men involved in transport, agriculture and mining just to name a few, were often not allowed to leave their jobs to join the military to ensure that those industries could still produce enough material to support the war. The militia soldiers mentioned were full time during the war as they constituted the bulk of land forces for the defence of Australia. The regular army was deployed overseas but under the legislation of the day, militia forces could not serve outside Australia - so they were used for the defence of the nation while the regular forces were deployed to other theatres. The ground fighting in Papua New Guinea was done primarily by Australian militia forces and not the regular army. PNG was an Australian protectorate so the law allowed the militia forces to be sent there. During the earlier stages of the war, Australia saw itself in dire need of aircraft and armoured vehicles. These were traditionally supplied by Great Britain but with GB herself needing them, orders for the Australia forces could not be supplied. We set about building our own aircraft and also a cruiser tank to alleviate this. After the US entry into the war and the gearing up of their factories to produce war materiel, they were able to supply much of the needed aircraft and armoured vehicles - it could be argued that this was likely the start of the "buy American" relationship between Australia and the US.
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#174
04-25-2012, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#175
04-25-2012, 11:05 PM
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While I would considered it "barely canon" the mini adventure "Whats Polish for G'day" seems to put the Australians in the same category as the French.
They are both jokingly in the "Organization of non irritated nations" or something similar according to one of the SAS chaps.
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#176
04-26-2012, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Edit: Militia were indeed employed on a similar basis as the AIF troops, I was thinking of the VDC - Volunteer Defence Corps. Quote:
The 53rd Battalion of the militia were sent in to support them but as a unit performed dismally - they'd received even less training than the 39th and were just as poorly equipped, if not worse. Eventually the 21st Brigade AIF (regular soldiers) arrived having been fighting in Syria just a few months before. But even the injection of fresh, veteran troops didn't stop the Australians being pushed back. In fact, the Japanese managed to move so far south that they could see Port Moresby below them before they were pushed back.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem Last edited by Legbreaker; 04-26-2012 at 10:22 AM.
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#177
04-26-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#178
04-26-2012, 06:08 AM
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Everything seems to indicate it only happened in PNG. When is open for debate, but it would seem logical for Indonesia to wait until Australia was involved heavily in Korea and none of our allies could help due to entanglements in Europe and elsewhere.
So, shall we say no sooner than mid 1997? Whenever it was, it would appear to have been rather short and sharp, at least as far as naval and air operations go anyway. The ground conflict could be one that grinds on for years, or barely happens at all. I'm of the opinion a force of around Brigade strength were sent in to reinforce the local PNG military, there's a Brigade or so in Korea and the rest are back home either carrying out disaster relief missions, assisting the police, securing vital facilities or training for deployment to PNG (not much of the latter). Most of the major population centres are nuked to some degree or another with Brisbane, Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth almost certainly receiving at least a warhead each (probably 3-4 for Sydney) and Townsville, Cairns and Darwin being possible secondary targets. Pine Gap may have suffered a small warhead. Canberra, the national capital, seems an unlikely target as there's not much in the way of military, industrial or other targets of worth - just a lot of politicians which are easily replaced. Even with only those primary targets I've listed being hit with small yield warheads, the effects are going to be huge. Roughly 30-40% of the countries population are going to be killed either in the initial strikes or the aftermath. Medical facilities will be completely overwhelmed, especially as most of the specialists and advanced facilities are located in the strike zones. Survivors aren't going to be hanging around for radiation, starvation, etc to kill them, so there's going to be a few million people heading into the countryside looking for food and shelter. By the time things settle down a bit, about 50%, or ten million people will be dead. Meanwhile, there's upwards of 5,000 troops deployed in Korea, and about the same in PNG. Reserves will be called up (probably the moment Indonesia invades PNG) but are unlikely to have completed training by late 1997. They, and every other available unit, will be rushed into action trying to control the refugees and provide for their basic needs - they'll make only a small difference and be completely overwhelmed. What's left of the government will be desperately trying to get the troops home from Korea, but with the destruction the RAN suffers fighting the Indonesians, there'll be few or even no ships available for escort duties. The destruction wreaked on the oil processing facilities will also rule out using civilian shipping as troop carriers as what small amounts are available will be desperately needed by the troops still at home. Some additional recruitment will occur post nuke, but most of these troops will be rushed through training and are likely to be used in humanitarian tasks rather than military. As previously posted, small arms will be available (in quantity given the stockpiles we've got tucked away here and there), but heavy weapons and military vehicles will be scarce. Most of these units will have to either walk, or use requisitioned civilian transport. With the lack of fuel, many of the old steam engines will be pulled from their museums and used for longer distance transport of troops and supplies, however the mere rumour of a train carrying food is likely to result in ambushes, derailments and the loss of these valuable resources. While Australia does have a fairly extensive rail network, outside the major cities they're usually single lines and in poor shape due to insufficient maintenance (even today). Sabotaging them in the hope of capturing a container or two of flour isn't going to be all that difficult and once the line is cut, re-routing will require going hundreds of miles out of the way. South east Queensland is likely to be the best place to be after around 2000 due to the availability of sugar cane for fuel and the ability to grow crops year round. Sugar mills are scattered about the countryside and breweries and distilleries are relatively common.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#179
04-26-2012, 11:26 AM
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Thanks Leg, that looks like a pretty decent summary to me - I would certainly buy into it.
Just one question...if we settle on a mid 97 start date for the Australian / Indonesian conflict and Reserves aren't called up until that time, wouldn't that make it more difficult to replace a Regular Brigade in Korea with a Reserve one given the time that would be required to bring the Reserves up to speed and deploy them to Korea? Might there not be a call up of the Reserves at the end of 1996 as a purely precautionary measure (and possibly limited in scope)? or could you end up with one Regular Brigade in Korea and another Regular Brigade in PNG?
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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