OT: German vs Allied Tech in WW2

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Targan

Wait, I'm confused. Where's the bashing? That the USMC developed their own helmet is a statement of fact. Did I miss the post where someone disparaged the efficacy of the USMC's helmet?

there was no bash.

The USMC is one of our times most legendary miltary formations. No one has said anything else in this thread so far.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's worth noting that besides the American M1, virtually everyone else where using bolt action rifles. And the M1, although semi-automatic, had a bit of a serious drawback - that pesky "ping" announcing to the world it was empty.

Considering the ranges most firefights took place - and the general din of battle- the M1 was by far better in practical application than any other prolific stsndard issue rifle of the war. The clink at the end of the mag sounds like a possible drawback to alert your enemy that you are empty - as I imagine the frantic swearing of a bolt rifle fireing grunt would be when he runs out..

just my opinion of course

[headquarters]

I believe that most powers in that horrible war fielded some good - and indeed some bad gear.

Doctrine and leadership were often the most difficult obstacle to utilize the technology to a marked advantage.Lack of foresight in the higher echelons and in some cases lack of political will to commit resources to win come to mind. The Germans didnt start to run their aircraft factories around the clock until a couple of years in for example. The last major war still influenced peoples concepts of ho to fight the present one.

The Germans were quick however to capitalize on their armour and use modern doctrine- but for instance - during the invasion of France and the low countries in 1940 the actual number of German tanks were NOT superior to allied tank power. The allies spread their thinly - the Germans concentrated /manouvered theirs as proved a winning tactic in that combat enviroment.

The Italians believed for the longest time that they did not need to upgrade their airpower / fighters to allied standards. They of course - got clobbered by the Allies overall in the sky. They did make a few good things though such as Beretta MP 38s , and the Beretta service pistol. But they still issued most troops with the questionable Mannlicher-Carcano.

The Japanese had fierce troops with what seemed like unswerving loyalty etc. They opted to issue them with semi obsolete bolt action rifles and tried to win the war without upgrading their infantry gear throughout the war

The Brits fielded the Sten Gun - arguably one of the simplest automatic firearms ever made prolific - but they made good use of it through training their lads and employing tactics that were workable.

Its easy to think that the powers that be in those days cooly calculated their moves - but they made decisions in an enviroment of casualties in the hundreds of thousands and in some cases with enemy arial bombardment actually hitting their place of business / seat of governance.

all in all - the shear economical disparity ( especially after the bombing of the industrial base of Germany) made the Axis chances of winning militarily very slim from mid 42. They could of course hope to get a victory because of a US forfeit , but luckily the US saw it through until the end and in a fashion that at the same time showed stalin that his advance had better halt were it did.

just one guys opinion everybody.

In game terms I find the emergency programs of weapon making that the loosing side and indeed the Soviets ( and to some extent the Brits in 1940) had going highly interesting.The making of field expedient armaments would be a valued skill in T2K I imagine. If you could churn out a few scrap metal/plumbing based SMGs to whatever crate of handgun caliber bullets the village has traded for then you could probably have the best horse, the best-washed wench and the least rotten potatos and the only house with a complete roof in the whole village!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

No question, as a tripod mount or emplaced weapon the MG42 is better than the Bren- however, as a squad support weapon the Bren was without peer at the time. Lightweight (for the time, anyway) reliable (just don't put 30 rounds in the magazine) and accurate, usable by one man at a pinch, fairly weatherproof (one of its last frontline uses was with the Royal Marines for Arctic service)- and iconic in appearance.
It is interesting that, after decades of not using LMGs (the MAG/GPMG covering both the LMG and MMG roles) the British Army decided to go back to having a squad support weapon, the L86- not only at the squad level, but issued one per 4-man fireteam. Standard ammo load initially was 6 thirty round mags per rifleman- but 2 of those were reserved for the LSW gunner.

The Bren was a great weapon: don't think otherwise. It was just limited in its roles. The reason why the MG 34/42 was much better was that it was the better weapon in a *lot* of roles.

Your typical '42 infantry squad (section) - 10 guys - typically, on average, and there is always exceptions, would only be equipped with one Bren/BAR, and one SMG. That was how things was formed up. Proper Machineguns was all placed in separate battalions, that was chopped up and parcelled out as need. The US at least had two advantages over the British system: The M1 over the SMLE, and the fact that there was a company level weapons platoon that had 2 belt fed machine guns. As the war went on, you would usually see an additional BAR/Bren, and another 1 or 2 SMG's.

The Germans, on the other hand, was set with a book value of 12 in a squad. They picked 12 because the assumed that for various reasons, two wouldn't be available, be it sick, lame, lazy, or such like. Each half squad in the Mechanised forces in 42 - and more than a few leg infantry units - had a MG34/42 and a SMG- with the rest of the squad there for the sole reason of protecting the MG, and feeding it. A typical german platoon had more raw firepower than any allied company - and sometimes battalions (Russians anyone?).

The main reason behind the makeup of the platoons is from how they was supposed to be used. The western allies felt that the base of fire from the platoon is aimed fire from the riflemen, while the automatic rifle keeps the bad guys at range, and help deal with the rushes. This isn't a bad idea - its very economical in ammo consumption. But it isn't well suited to mobile combat. The Germans on the other hand looked at it like this: No matter what, we are always going to be outnumbered. We have to find a way to make up for that. So they based each squad on a pair of mutually supporting weapon sections, each with the sole reason for existence of feeding a proper machine gun, with a very high rate of fire (1200 rounds a minute) designed to put as many bullets as possible in a small area in a short time. As one friend put it, "It was meant to be a 600m shotgun."

Funny enough, most armies these days seem to be built on...

2 Fire Sections...

Based around a MG.

Granted, as the war wore on those numbers got all messed up.

But back on point.

The big disadvantage of the MG42 over the Bren/BAR is ammo consumption. After all, the MG42 is only 2 pounds heavier than the Bren, and in my mind, I'm ok with a 2 pound heavier weapon compared to the MG42's biggest advantage over the Bren.

Ammo Consumption.

Yes, its biggest issues and plusses was ammo: It ran through a lot. Speaking from experience, the advantages that a belt fed machine gun gives over a magazine fed automatic rifle is much better than the problem of toting the ammo.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and you know what they say about that.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The Japanese, although tough and determined enemies, were cursed with some of the worst tech of the war.

Pretty much all of their weapons systems were inferior to the Western equivalent. The Zero was king for a while, but as soon as allied pilots figured out not to get into a turning/climbing fight with it, it lost a lot of its mystique. Later Allied designs like the Hellcat and Corsair were superior. The Yamato super battleship was impressive and would have been superior in most respects in the age of the battle line, but in the era of naval air, it was a dinosaur.

Japanese infantry weapons were generally crap, across the board. The only major exception was their little "knee" mortars, which could generate impressive close-in indirect fire support. They never had enough artillery, their tanks were crap, and most Japanese infantrymen fought with long, unwieldly bolt-action rifles.

It kind of makes one wonder how the Japanese would have fared with better weapons systems and better leadership.

Some of their warship designs, munitions and aircraft were actually quite good throughout the war and highly regarded, but unfortunately they werent as good as what America was producing, nor could they build them in them in anything like the quantities that America could with ease. The Yamato despite it dimensions and the size of its main batteries was a technologicaly inferior battleship to US Navy Iowa Class, and would probably have lost if it had ever encountered an Iowa in battle. The British Vanguard might have taken it out as well.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by RN7

Some of their warship designs, munitions and aircraft were actually quite good throughout the war and highly regarded, but unfortunately they werent as good as what America was producing, nor could they build them in them in anything like the quantities that America could with ease. The Yamato despite it dimensions and the size of its main batteries was a technologicaly inferior battleship to US Navy Iowa Class, and would probably have lost if it had ever encountered an Iowa in battle. The British Vanguard might have taken it out as well.

I forgot to mention the Long Lance torpedo. That was some deadly device.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by copeab

The much-maligned P-40 was actually a good match against the Zero as long as the Allied pilot didn't engage in a low-speed turning dogfight or try to out-climb the Zero.

(At high speeds, the P-40 could actually out-turn the Zero).

The P-40 had a slow climb rate and an inferior turn rate to the Zero, but it was actually as fast as the Spitfire 1A and Bf-109E and was slightly quicker than the Zero. The Zero was more maneuverable than the P-40 but it was more maneuverable than every other fighter in 1940/41. The P-40 had good armor, firepower, roll rate, and dive speed, and the Japanese rated it as their most dangerous opponent at low altitude. The P-40 actually had a very good air-to-air combat record, particularly with Chennault Flying Tigers in China against the Japanese, the 325th Fighter Group in Italy and the Royal New Zealand Air Force and was still in use with American forces at the end of the war.

Originally Posted by copeab

While their tanks had thing armor and weak guns, they were reliable and had good cross-country performance. The main problem was that fighting the Chinese had taught the Japanese the wrong lessons about tank warfare.

The main problem with the Japanese is that they didn't learn any lessons about tank warfare.

In 1939 the Russian army gave them such a hammering in northern China that Japan refused to even think about attacking Russia even after the German invasion. The Japanese Army continued to use the same outdated tactics and type of weapons throughout the war against the Allies instead of learning how to fight against modern mechanised armies. Little or no attempt was made to ask the German army for their very experienced and competant advice in how to counter Soviet or Western mechanised armies and tactics, or to even license producing modern German tanks to give themselves a fighting chance when they went up against modern Allied tanks. The result was a one sided slaughter and led to the biggest military defeat in the history of the Japanese Army when Stalin send the Red Army back into China in August 1945.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Wait, I'm confused. Where's the bashing? That the USMC developed their own helmet is a statement of fact. Did I miss the post where someone disparaged the efficacy of the USMC's helmet?

Wait, I'm confused. When did the Marines develop a new helmet? What does it look like?

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by RN7

The main problem with the Japanese is that they didn't learn any lessons about tank warfare. In 1939 the Russian army gave them such a hammering in northern China that Japan refused to even think...

This is one of the big problems with NTC and JRTC, in my mind. When you lose the game by a couple of runs, you have a serious look at what you can do improve your game. When you lose the game by a dozen runs, you shrug your shoulders and put it behind you. My brigade walked away from NTC with nothing new to talk about because we got taken so thoroughly to the cleaners that we were more interested in forgetting about the experience and salvaging our self-esteem than in investigating why we got pounded so hard. The OPFOR needs to learn how to back off and provide the BLUFOR with a learning experience, not another high-fiving experience for themselves at the downtown establishments. The Japanese got handled so roughly that they turned their backs on all of the lessons they could have learned.

[headquarters]

The Bren and the Bar were good squad weapons - probably the best or among the best - until the advent of the MG42 and the German doctrine described by Panther.

So I agree with him - thats not to say that well trained troops didnt make the Bren a potent weapon. The British and others ended up using the Bren far longer than WWII.

Originally Posted by Panther Al

The Bren was a great weapon: don't think otherwise. It was just limited in its roles. The reason why the MG 34/42 was much better was that it was the better weapon in a *lot* of roles.

Your typical '42 infantry squad (section) - 10 guys - typically, on average, and there is always exceptions, would only be equipped with one Bren/BAR, and one SMG. That was how things was formed up. Proper Machineguns was all placed in separate battalions, that was chopped up and parcelled out as need. The US at least had two advantages over the British system: The M1 over the SMLE, and the fact that there was a company level weapons platoon that had 2 belt fed machine guns. As the war went on, you would usually see an additional BAR/Bren, and another 1 or 2 SMG's.

The Germans, on the other hand, was set with a book value of 12 in a squad. They picked 12 because the assumed that for various reasons, two wouldn't be available, be it sick, lame, lazy, or such like. Each half squad in the Mechanised forces in 42 - and more than a few leg infantry units - had a MG34/42 and a SMG- with the rest of the squad there for the sole reason of protecting the MG, and feeding it. A typical german platoon had more raw firepower than any allied company - and sometimes battalions (Russians anyone?).

The main reason behind the makeup of the platoons is from how they was supposed to be used. The western allies felt that the base of fire from the platoon is aimed fire from the riflemen, while the automatic rifle keeps the bad guys at range, and help deal with the rushes. This isn't a bad idea - its very economical in ammo consumption. But it isn't well suited to mobile combat. The Germans on the other hand looked at it like this: No matter what, we are always going to be outnumbered. We have to find a way to make up for that. So they based each squad on a pair of mutually supporting weapon sections, each with the sole reason for existence of feeding a proper machine gun, with a very high rate of fire (1200 rounds a minute) designed to put as many bullets as possible in a small area in a short time. As one friend put it, "It was meant to be a 600m shotgun."

Funny enough, most armies these days seem to be built on...

2 Fire Sections...

Based around a MG.

Granted, as the war wore on those numbers got all messed up.

But back on point.

The big disadvantage of the MG42 over the Bren/BAR is ammo consumption. After all, the MG42 is only 2 pounds heavier than the Bren, and in my mind, I'm ok with a 2 pound heavier weapon compared to the MG42's biggest advantage over the Bren.

Ammo Consumption.

Yes, its biggest issues and plusses was ammo: It ran through a lot. Speaking from experience, the advantages that a belt fed machine gun gives over a magazine fed automatic rifle is much better than the problem of toting the ammo.

Of course, this is all my opinion, and you know what they say about that.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by headquarters

The Bren and the Bar were good squad weapons - probably the best or among the best - until the advent of the MG42 and the German doctrine described by Panther.

So I agree with him - thats not to say that well trained troops didnt make the Bren a potent weapon. The British and others ended up using the Bren far longer than WWII.

That was a bad thing aswell.

We whre caught up on the idea of an LSW style support weapon and in the 80's built the L86 to supplement the L85 when the rest of the world had already realised you needed a proper LMG for squad support.

Wasn't untill after the gulf war we started using the Minimi.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

there was no bash.

That's exactly the point. There was no bash of the US forces, just an overreaction to a non-event.

[LAW0306]

god bless you leg.