Fort Knox

[kalos72]

Has anyone thought about what would happen with Fort Knox?

I just saw a History Channel report on it and it got me thinking...

[Rainbow Six]

There's some discussion about Fort Knox on this thread

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...highlight=Knox

[kalos72]

Nice. Thanks for the link.

Gives me some good ideas...

[DocSavage45B10]

As much as I despise Ft Knox and its hills (thanks Misery and Agony, yes I did my BCT there), I can't see MILGOV pulling the plug on it. The Gold is there, and with the end of fiat currency, Gold is money again. Besides as Legbreaker points out in the referenced thread, its too damn heavy to move it anywhere.

[mikeo80]

If you really want to get paranoid....

There is always the (unproven?) theory that Ft. Knox is nothing but a show place. The gold was never "really" there. Yes there was the ONE time some members of Congress were shown into the vault. But was it really gold?

I am not a fan of huge conspiracy theories...

However...

I'm just thinking out loud....

My $0.02

Mike

[rcaf_777]

Is Knox on the Nuke Hit list

You would have blast the base just make the un useable, I think the governement might take steps to move some of the gold some where eles

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Is Knox on the Nuke Hit list

Check the thread referenced above for answers to your query.

[kalos72]

It wasnt...

I like the idea of sinking the barges to hide them once they realized they couldnt get them out to CO...

OR

The depository becomes a sefl suffecient fortress of special ops folks or something....

[rcaf_777]

Here is the thing the United States Bullion Depository is inside the army base which is called Fort Knox

Fort Knox durring twilight would have been a huge area of activity as it would the US Army Armoured Traning School, I'm also sure you see the Kentucky State Guard training there as well.

As for the gold well pick an option that works best for you

Option 1 - The US Government moves SOME of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 2 - The US Government moves ALL of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 3 - The US Government moves NONE of the gold

As for the Fort Knox the base, will speaking from a Military stand point, an untouch base like Fort Knox with troops, untouch military infrastructure, and airfeild would a major asset to CIV or MIL Gov

Other thing to remember are


1. Fort Knox is only 38 miles from Louisville Ky, which is a major crossing of the Ohio River

2 . Three major highways also meet at Louisville

2. Kentucky as about 400 Coal Mines

4. Louisville is gateway to the Ohio Valley

Just curious what units would at Fort Knox in 2000

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here is the thing the United States Bullion Depository is inside the army base which is called Fort Knox

Fort Knox durring twilight would have been a huge area of activity as it would the US Army Armoured Traning School, I'm also sure you see the Kentucky State Guard training there as well.

As for the gold well pick an option that works best for you

Option 1 - The US Government moves SOME of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 2 - The US Government moves ALL of the gold to secert locations before the attacks of thanksgiving

Option 3 - The US Government moves NONE of the gold

There is a huge amount of gold deposited at Fort Knox; 4,578 metric tons as of 2012 which is equivelant to 2.5% of all the gold ever refined in history. Yet the underground vault in Federal Reserve Bank of New York in Manhattan is even bigger at 7,000 metric tons. America's gold reserves are by far the largest in the world, over 60% larger than Germany who has the second largest gold reserves in the world and three times larger than the International Monetary Fund. I just don't know were or how the US Government could have moved all this gold in such a short time.

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

As for the Fort Knox the base, will speaking from a Military stand point, an untouch base like Fort Knox with troops, untouch military infrastructure, and airfeild would a major asset to CIV or MIL Gov

Other thing to remember are


1. Fort Knox is only 38 miles from Louisville Ky, which is a major crossing of the Ohio River

2 . Three major highways also meet at Louisville

2. Kentucky as about 400 Coal Mines

4. Louisville is gateway to the Ohio Valley

Just curious what units would at Fort Knox in 2000

There are a lot of military units based in Fort Knox.

3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team (1st Infantry Division)
3rd Sustainment Command (Expeditionary)
19th Engineer Battalion
16th Cavalry Regiment
194th Armored Brigade
34th Military Police Detachment
46th Adjutant General Battalion
95th Training Division (formerly 95th Infantry Division)
113th Band
Ireland Army Community Hospital MEDDAC
84th Training Command
70th Training Division (FT)

[Legbreaker]

I'm of the opinion (as seen in the previous thread) that the gold isn't going anywhere. There's simply no call for it when it could be moved, and once the area is abandoned, there's no practical way of doing it.

Most of the units based at Fort Knox in peacetime are sure to have been sent to war by 1997-1998. It's extremely unlikely many of the peacetime military personnel will be still there although the base is sure to have been used for training replacements up until it could no longer be held at a sustainable cost.

[DocSavage45B10]

Even when the units deploy they will leave rear detachments behind that can and will be used as the nucleus for new units post TDM. Also Knox is a BCT / OSUT base so there would pretty much always be units in formation there.

If you're looking for a reason to abandon Ft Knox, personnel ain't it.

[WallShadow]

I'm tempted to ask if Pussy Galore and her Flying Circus will be providing close air support in the occasion of a ground assault by North Koreans?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by DocSavage45B10

If you're looking for a reason to abandon Ft Knox, personnel ain't it.

It's just one factor amongst many. Take out one element of Milgovs reasoning to leave and they might just have stayed - enough reliable food to supply troops, enough troops to obtain said food and provide security, less threat from the surrounding region.

But, withdraw they did and directly into combat with the Civgov 84th Infantry. Sure, a handful of small units may have stayed, but for how long? Could they really hold out against the mounting pressure from virtually all directions against a variety of threats? Were those units instead absorbed by the 194th at some point and incorporated into their logistics or combat organisation?

[DocSavage45B10]

Like I said, if you're looking for reasons, personel aint it, it's a major training base, you those guys they're still trying to ship overseas even after the exchange? They have to be trained somewhere.

Personally in my game, I just don't see why Knox would be abandoned. Looking at the map, the only reason I can see is if Louisville collapses into blood soaked anarchy and the installation gets over-run. But given that is isn't Dies the Fire I'm not seeing it, not for my game at least.

[Panther Al]

Agreed: There is simply too much infrastructure in Knox for it to be abandoned for anything but serious earth shattering reasons. You have large barracks area's, massive facilities for training ranging from bunkerage, maintenance, and more.

Its far enough away from major population area's, that there wouldn't be a massive surge towards it yet close enough it can still be a influence.

And the terrain is custom made for the defence. Agony, Heartbreak, and Misery isn't the only hills of doom.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by RN7

There is a huge amount of gold deposited at Fort Knox; 4,578 metric tons

Based on this you would need 78 Semi-Trailer Trucks to haul the gold away, using the years 1995-1998 as the years the gold could moved, you could stagger the removal rate at about one truck 1 1/2 per month.

Using the night and high pace of military activity at Fort Knox, I think you could move some of the gold without to many people knowing

FYI here is the math

4,578 metric ton = 4,578,000 kilograms,
Semi-Trailer Maximum Weight (Triple Wheel): 59,000 kg

I think we should keep in mind the US Government would only move a limited ammount of the gold not alll the gold

[RN7]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Based on this you would need 78 Semi-Trailer Trucks to haul the gold away, using the years 1995-1998 as the years the gold could moved, you could stagger the removal rate at about one truck 1 1/2 per month.

Using the night and high pace of military activity at Fort Knox, I think you could move some of the gold without to many people knowing

FYI here is the math

4,578 metric ton = 4,578,000 kilograms,
Semi-Trailer Maximum Weight (Triple Wheel): 59,000 kg

I think we should keep in mind the US Government would only move a limited ammount of the gold not alll the gold

But to where?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

But to where?

Maybe some sort of secret underground storage facilty similar to the one in Allegeheny Uprising?

[simonmark6]

If they had enough notice, stick the gold on a train, run it up to an abandoned rail tunnel, drive in, remove engines and collapse both ends of the tunnel.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by RN7

But to where?

Multiple dispersal facilities. Why keep it concentrated for a single catastrophe to eliminate?

- C.

[Legbreaker]

As discussed in the previous thread, why go to all that bother. The existing facilities have to be stronger than just about any possible alternative and hardened up to and including a near miss (perhaps even direct hit) by a sizeable nuke. Shifting the gold introduces a whole range of potential problems which simply aren't needed.

Also, why bother shifting it before nukes are used in Europe in July 1997?
If a slow movement was then considered, by the time it was organised November would have almost rolled around.

Also, Fort Knox was where the US Constitution and all the other valuable historical items were stored in WWII. If it's good enough for them, surely it's good enough for the gold....?

It has to be remembered that in early 1997 nuclear war, while a possibility, seemed to have been avoided. The Soviets, always expected to resort to nukes within weeks, if not days of the commencement of hostilities, had held back, choosing instead to continue with conventional warfare. It wasn't until the writing was well and truly on the wall for them that they opened Pandora's box and let loose. Even then it was very, very restrained with just the odd tactical warhead used here and there and only against targets within 50km or so of their own border (ok, China was being turned to glass at the time, but the west had next to no units involved there to worry about).

We can see in Howling Wilderness that US civilians panicked at the first used of nukes and left the cities in droves, but soon returned when nothing happened. Even towards the end of 1997 many could have been forgiven for believing nuclear war at home had been avoided and their homes, their jobs, their families, and their government and military infrastructure was safe.

So, given the almost complete lack of reasons to move the gold, why would anyone have even considered it as a possibility?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

So, given the almost complete lack of reasons to move the gold, why would anyone have even considered it as a possibility?

It may be something as simple as because there were Continuation of Government plans that mandated moving the gold when a certain trigger point was reached. One of those trigger points may have been the first use of nuclear weapons (i.e. in July 1997). By reading the books we have the benefit of knowing that there was no immediate escalation, but the leaders of the US Government in such a situation would not have had that luxury - for all they knew the nuclear exchange could spread to the US in days (if not hours).

In other words, when events elsewhere mean that a certain box gets ticked, the plan kicks in as a precautionary measure. I do agree that the chances of any such box being ticked prior to July 1997 are quite slim, but after that who knows what emergency plans might be implemented?

[Legbreaker]

True, that is a possibility, but highly unlikely given the reputed overwhelming security of the facility.
Another issue is that of simple logistics. With the vast majority of US military manpower fighting overseas on multiple fronts in multiple areas of the world, just how much is going to be left to carry out such a monumental task?

As always, everyone's free to do whatever they want in their own world, but for the life of me I just can't see the logic behind such a move, let alone the capacity to carry it out in such an environment.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

It may be something as simple as because there were Continuation of Government plans that mandated moving the gold when a certain trigger point was reached.

The U.S. Government has a number of sites for this purpose. Two well known ones at Raven Rock Mountain Complex, Pennsylvania and Mount Weather Emergency Operations Centre, Virginia. One lesser well known one somewhere in the vacinity of Denver Colorado, and probably two other ones who only the top brass in the Pentagon know about.

Area B at Mount Weather; the underground part of the complex might be a good place to store U.S. gold reserves and other valuables. The U.S Army hollowed out of the rock 600,000 square feet of tunnels and rooms with roofs reinforced by iron bolts from the 1950's. There seems to be a lot of secret stuff there and locals reported in 2001 that the mountain opened up and Air Force One flew in and then the mountain closed right up. However I think Virginia is largely a CIVGOV state in T2K.

[Legbreaker]

However, if their location is known to simple civilians and not a classified top secret, what's the bet the Soviets don't also know their location and have them already targeted?
Seems silly to shift items from a supposedly super secure fortress to one of those facilities which are used to store many other items and therefore perhaps even more of a target. May not destroy what's inside, but if the doorway glows in the dark and is more melted glass than stone and metal....

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I just can't see the logic behind such a move, let alone the capacity to carry it out in such an environment.

Whoever said Governments are logical in their actions?

Seriously, with regards to manpower, I don't have a copy of the US Vehicle Guide to hand, so don't know when the 194th Armoured Brigade left Fort Knox, but it's possible that at least some elements of that Brigade remained at Knox for just such a task (I know the books say they formed a small strategic reserve but that's not incompatible with also having a role shifting the gold).

With regards to the location of the site, RN7 has identified a few of the more well known ones, but as he rightly states there may be a number of others whose existence is a much more closely guarded secret that the gold could be taken to, and it doesn't have to all go to the same place.

To a certain extent I'm reminded of Goldfinger - although it's been a long, long time since I saw it, if I recall correctly, wasn't Auric's idea to make the gold radioactive, and therefore effectively useless as a trade item? Similar thinking may have been taking place during the summer of 1997 as nukes started flying in Europe. Who knows how impenetrable Knox's vaults are? It may be possible that whilst the gold may not be destroyed, a heavy enough attack could render it radioactive and therefore useless - who would accept a bar of radioactive gold as payment knowing that handling it could be fatal?

[DocSavage45B10]

Don't the active isotopes of gold have short half-lives? And also the most likely use for the gold is to sit in bank vaults as backing for bank-notes or copper and silver coinage. Gold is typically reserved for very large transactions in gold based monetary systems.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

To a certain extent I'm reminded of Goldfinger - although it's been a long, long time since I saw it, if I recall correctly, wasn't Auric's idea to make the gold radioactive, and therefore effectively useless as a trade item? Similar thinking may have been taking place during the summer of 1997 as nukes started flying in Europe. Who knows how impenetrable Knox's vaults are? It may be possible that whilst the gold may not be destroyed, a heavy enough attack could render it radioactive and therefore useless - who would accept a bar of radioactive gold as payment knowing that handling it could be fatal?

[Legbreaker]

I believe Gold acts very much like Lead in relation to radiation. Not being a physicist, I'm in no position to say more than that with anything even approaching authority.

And yes, my understanding is the gold is never actually moved anywhere - it's held in storage to back the dollar and generally give credit something solid to work with. The gold being radioactive wouldn't mean a thing since it's not actually intended to physically change hands at any time. Even large transactions don't require transfer of anything physical - just a few numbers in a computer system.

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

[rcaf_777]

Lets look at the book WAR DAY for the answer to how Gold wouldbe used

The book says that the British are engaged in operations that the US has to pay for so the US transfers gold from the US Pile at Fort Knox to the British Pile

if that was to happen what country would like to have radioactive gold?