Urban Farming

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Given combat had only been happening for 7-8 months before nukes were used, would that really be likely on a wide scale?
Also, up until the first nukes were fired, Nato was holding the upper hand and actually winning!

I agree with Leg. In both v1 and v2.2, NATO had pushed the Soviet armies to the Polish - Soviet border.

I also think that once the first nuke went off, there would be utter panic here in the USA. Absolute chaos as there would be a run on the banks, then the supermarkets, then the gun stores, then the hardware stores, then the gas stations. Or some variation. This might not be the EXACT order...but I think you get my drift.

The highways out of the major cities would shut down after about 15 - 20 minutes of panic exodus. There would have to be martial law almost immediately after the first announcement of the nukes going "BANG".

The riots for food, guns, medicine, etc would probably be about an hour or so after the first BANG. Once the general populace realizes that there is NO way out of the cities, the gloves come off. Civil order would probably colapse with in an hour of the start of the riots as the police, national guard, and etc. would be overwhelmed VERY quickly. I think that the civilian authorities would HAVE to use deadly force just to try and save a few. (Read themselves. IMHO, the average politician has the survival instinct of a rat leaving a sinking ship.)

Against the backdrop of utter insanity, the few of us who prepaired would be doing our best to "get down and stay down". And we would be praying that whatever we had done to get ready for the nightmare is enough.

Enough of my sunshine and pleasant thoughts for today. I will get down off of the soapbox.

My $0.02

Mike

[WallShadow]

Considering the descriptions of the exploding populations of pigeons, rats, and roaches in the depopulated (by humans, that is) city, it is time to examine methods of harvesting these bounties.

First, pigeons.
Canon has it that huge flocks of hundreds, even thousands of pigeons have flocked together and often find nesting areas in the large empty galleries whose windows have been blown out. These flocks are described as darkening the skies when they are startled into flight.
Solution: scout out the roosting places. Construct large strong nets to be suspended over the openings to the roosting areas--fishing line, nylon cording, anything that is nearly invisible but strong. After the nets are quietly rigged and the roost has accumulated a large population, throw in a couple of firecrackers or their homemade equivalent to spook the birds into fleeing their shelter--right into the dropped netting, which captures large numbers of them with minimal damage. At this phase the decision becomes, "How many to eat, how many to smoke/preserve, how many to keep for breeding/eggs, and how many to trade?" The Duke might send mating pairs as gifts to entice independent (but hungry) enclaves into joining him. Oh, yeah--pigeon manure is among the most nutrient-rich manures available. So the the Duke, trying to wring out every calorie from his intensive gardening efforts, will have working crews scraping up and saving every jot and tittle of pigeon poop, then wetting the floors with clean water and sopping up the dissolved nutrients ("pigeon tea") to add to the soil. Imagine the rumors _that_ will generate about the mental state of the Downtown ruler. And don't forget the feathers and down for pillows or insulating clothing or quilts

Next, rats. One of the narrative bits has a chilling encounter with swarming, chittering, squealing masses of rats in a sewer. Another passage describes rats en masse trying to escape a flooding tunnel. Well, if they are so eager to run through small passages and pipes, why not build some diversion ductwork to pipe off a stream of eager-to-escape rats, with the outflow end depositing the rodents into a gnaw-proof container? Think a 3-dimensional fish seine. Again, a push at the far end of things will motivate the rats into fleeing down the wide end of the funnel(s) that will bring them to the harvesters. And the meat isn't the only benefit from the wee beasties-- you get furs, small though they be, and bones, which can be dried and ground up for soil amendments.

Last,Roaches. Even fried in olive oil with garlic, roaches would not be the first choice in protein sources. In fact, they approach infinity minus 1 in numerical order of what I'd choose. (I can just see Jay Leno with a bag of crispy-fried roaches in Nacho Cheese flavor--"Crunch all you want--we'll breed more!") However they ARE full of protein, so why waste them? Just feed them to your pigeons, chickens, rats, or other insectivore food sources.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

I also think that once the first nuke went off, there would be utter panic here in the USA. Absolute chaos as there would be a run on the banks, then the supermarkets, then the gun stores, then the hardware stores, then the gas stations. Or some variation. This might not be the EXACT order...but I think you get my drift.

Several years ago, I drafted a piece on the effects of the various nuclear scares on the United States. I never finished it for lack of time. Essentially, I looked at the various scares and their effects on public order, etc. I started with the outbreak of the Sino-Soviet War and built from there through every juncture at which nukes might have been used. The most significant of these, which occurs on 09 JUL 97, I call the Alarm. Basically, this is a dress rehearsal for the effects of the Thanksgiving Day Massacre (which we know actually lasts a week or so). [Actually, Howling Wilderness calls this event the Thanksgiving Massacre, not the Thanksgiving Day Massacre.]

The good news about these scares is that they give the forces of law and order a chance to see how things might go in the real event. They also lead to a United States that is somewhat better prepared than Howling Wilderness would have us believe. Some folks are determined to pretend all is well, to be sure. The future Shogun in Nevada is in Las Vegas when the Exchange catches up with CONUS. But the effects of the Alarm in July would be absolutely unavoidable. The first use of nuclear weapons, followed by a general Sino-Soviet exchange, would see an unprecedented breakdown of law and order in the US. Rioting and crime of every description, along with mass flight from the cities and all the horrors entailed by having millions of motorists jammed onto the highways leading out of the major cities, could not help but wake the US out of the most determined torpor. Contingency planning would go into high gear. Even soccer moms might get sensible once they got the idea that their kids really were at risk.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Several years ago, I drafted a piece on the effects of the various nuclear scares on the United States. I never finished it for lack of time.

I'm pretty sure you posted some of that on this forum. It's certainly ringing some bells for me.

[Legbreaker]

The major problem with cockroaches is the MASSIVE amount of bacteria and other nasties they carry about on their exoskeleton. Internally they're fine to eat, but they'd have to be intensively cleaned and treated before they could be considered even partially safe to feed to the starving masses (probably dried and ground down into meal and turned into a sort of porridge first though to hide what it really is).

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm pretty sure you posted some of that on this forum. It's certainly ringing some bells for me.

I, for one, would like to read your thoughts. You stated the same ideas that I put down. Although I am sure that your ideas are better stated and logically developed. Mine are thoughts that have developed over the years as I watch and try to learn.

My $0.02

Mike

[TrailerParkJawa]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Water is another critical issue. After the TDM, electricity for pumping water will be out right across the country. People and crops need water, and they can’t go without it for very long. I have a bad habit of letting two or three days go by without watering my container tomatoes. The rainy season hasn’t started in California, so the only water those tomatoes are going to get comes from my hose. What would I do if the water were out? The same applies to everything in my garden. In cities that get rain year-round, such as those cities east of the 100th Meridian, it may be possible to rely on a combination of rainfall and improvised cisterns. Throughout much of the American West, however, rainfall is both seasonal and scanty. The more the solution to acquiring water in these places depends on civil order, planning, cooperation, etc., the less likely the solution is to be executed. Albuquerque is in a much tougher spot than Cincinnati.

Webstral

For much of California is only rains between October and May at best. So a city like Sacramento that is next to a big river could have at least some access to water.

But where I'm at in North San Jose there is a creek like 1000ft away. But it tends to completely dry up this time of year. The Guadalupe is about 2 miles away but thats a long way for water unless things are fairly stable.

I see any urban farming as supplemental and not primary sources of agriculture. That not to say water can't be found, Silicon Valley used to have some of the best orchards in the world so the weather and soils are good. Its just how to get the water. They pumped alot of the ground water out in the early 1900's. In the 70's and 80's they contanimated alot of it. Now, its all paved over.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

For much of California is only rains between October and May at best. So a city like Sacramento that is next to a big river could have at least some access to water.

But where I'm at in North San Jose there is a creek like 1000ft away. But it tends to completely dry up this time of year. The Guadalupe is about 2 miles away but thats a long way for water unless things are fairly stable.

I see any urban farming as supplemental and not primary sources of agriculture. That not to say water can't be found, Silicon Valley used to have some of the best orchards in the world so the weather and soils are good. Its just how to get the water. They pumped alot of the ground water out in the early 1900's. In the 70's and 80's they contanimated alot of it. Now, its all paved over.

Here in North Carolina, rain is more frequent. I can capture rain water from the roof.

AS far as surface water is concerned, there are several small streams and ponds within 2 -3 miles of the house. I agree with TPJ, 2 -3 miles is a LONG way if the surrounding area is not secure.

Urban farming is, at best, a survival technique. It is for those of us who live in a city, and do not want to/can not evacuate. I live in a relatively small city, Fayetteville, NC. And, on top of that, the area where I live are the "suburbs" of Fayetteville. My preference is to shelter in place. All of my "stuff" is here in the house. As we have discussed, if there is a nuke exchange ANYWHERE in the world, the massive panic here in the USA will result in mega casualties. I want to stay put. If at all possible.

Depending on the breaks, and also just how BIG WWIII gets to, Fayetteville might not catch a "present" from the other side of the world.

My $0.02

Mike

[Webstral]

Survival is the name of the game. Keeping as many people alive as possible is what it's all about in the years immediately following the Exchange. In the long run, Fort Huachuca is going to become a backwater again because the water needed for labor-effective agriculture just isn't available. In the meantime, though, intensive gardening-style agriculture can keep a lot of folks alive until local agriculture can start producing a sufficient surplus to release labor from the land to rebuild the economy.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Do you guys have an opinion on clearing urban areas for agriculture? It's easy to plant vegetables in front or backyards or in parks. But what about digging up asphalt? There is a a lot of very productive lands that are now paved over.

Without gasoline it seems to be this activity would take more a calories than could be recovered if clearing the asphalt by hand. What do u think?

[Capt_Bowman]

A well laid road is several feet thick of tarmac (base coat, wear coat) and levels of coarse and fine stone. You might also then have fuel / oil contamination of the underlying soil if the road is old and has been in use for years... that is assuming the bulk of the topsoil was not removed as part of the construction process.

I suspect you'd reclaim parks, gardens, median strips and the like before you started breaking up roads.

But that is just my view and based on UK roads.

[WallShadow]

I see a lot of container and possibly raised bed gardening at first, until the concrete is pulled up from the sidewalks. Hydroponics may be a good standby, if nutrients can be obtained.
I wonder if anyone has thought to raid the sewage treatment plants on Manhattan to haul away the processed, digested sewage sludge, which is used as a soil amendment. This could produce another rumor to the effect that the Duke's lost his freakin' mind: "...And they were willing to _pay_us to get that processed human _crap_! What the hell is the Duke gonna DO with that stuff???"

[Webstral]

Rabbit manure creates an acceptable hydroponic soup (I can’t remember the proper term off the top of my head). You put a quantity of the pills in water, shake it, and let the solution stand for a period of time. The water column then can be poured off and used to nourish plants hydroponically for several days. Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary. The beauty of this is that the bulk of rabbits’ diet is grass. You can turn vegetable matter unsuitable for human consumption into vegetable matter suitable for human consumption, as well as some meat and pelt. There is a labor component to gathering the grass for the rabbits. They also can heat a greenhouse, and they do nicely in temperatures down to freezing.

They also lick your nose, teach your children compassion, and provide your wife with an alternative outlet for her tirades.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Webstral

They also lick your nose, teach your children compassion, and provide your wife with an alternative outlet for her tirades.

That might be true...

Until you have to inform the wee one's that Mr. Fluffy is the main course for dinner....

A friend of mine introduced my wife and self to roast rabbit...Everything was fine...until wife caught wind that the cute bunnies in friends back yard were providing dinner...Ugly is not the proper word....

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

A friend of mine introduced my wife and self to roast rabbit...Everything was fine...until wife caught wind that the cute bunnies in friends back yard were providing dinner...Ugly is not the proper word...

So most of the time your wife does her best not to think about where meat comes from? I suspect 95% or more of westerners do the same. Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of killing something because I want to eat it. Killing it quickly and cleanly is, of course, preferred.

No disrespect to your wife (this isn't directed specifically at her) but I think people who wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal before cooking it probably should become vegetarians.

[Jason Weiser]

I don't think most folks think about it Targan. Then again, I saw a pig get slaughtered for a family freind's communion. They were poor Spanish farmers, so it was knife meet throat. I saw it at 6, didn't bother me, and I ate pork afterwards. My wife? She didn't take well when she went to a farm recently with freinds and found out dinner has a face. I blame the schools....

[Webstral]

If the worst that happens to me after a nuclear exchange is that I eat my rabbits, I'll feel pretty good.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

I don't think most folks think about it Targan. Then again, I saw a pig get slaughtered for a family freind's communion. They were poor Spanish farmers, so it was knife meet throat. I saw it at 6, didn't bother me, and I ate pork afterwards. My wife? She didn't take well when she went to a farm recently with freinds and found out dinner has a face. I blame the schools....

There are some school textbooks provided by the meat industry in which hamburger patties are shown growing like corn.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

There are some school textbooks provided by the meat industry in which hamburger patties are shown growing like corn.

Now that is just WRONG! How does anyone get away with that sort of deception? I'm all for blurring reality a little so the kids aren't scarred for life, but anything more than hiding the blood spatter on the killing room walls is going a bit too far in my opinion.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a few T bone steak plants for my back garden if anyone's got a few spare seeds...

[Webstral]

The US has a weird relationship with public education. We resent having to pay for something we believe ought to be available for free. We want high home resale values, but we decry property taxes, which fund public education, as the tools of the Devil and/or socialism. Many of those without children complain bitterly that they shouldn't have to chip in for public schooling. Consequently, schools are often short of funds. Enter private industry, which closes the gap with some strings attached. Soda machines got into the schools because the distributors paid a fee. Textbooks like the ones in question get into the schools because they are provided for free. I could go on and on about the wretched hypocrisy of our attitude towards public education. It's little wonder that private education is thriving--especially here in California. Thank goodness Finland and Singapore are too small and distant to provide a real challenge.

[WallShadow]

ISTR that in the 2300AD universe, the meat ranches on the planet Aurore raised rabbit, guinea pig, and hamster....

[Webstral]

Back on topic, a good greenhouse can extend the growing season by more than 30 days at either end of the normal season. In some locations, this is the difference between having a growing season and not having a growing season. A good greenhouse can provide passive solar gain if it's attached to the south side of a house. Getting greenhouses built after the nuclear exchange is a bit of a trick, though. Still, necessity is the mother of invention and improvisation. A half-baked greenhouse is far superior to no greenhouse.

New England of 2000 has many such half-baked greenhouses. In southern Vermont, the Black Watch started as a survivalist group that ended up taking over the two southernmost counties. Pre-war, they did their homework on down-and-dirty greenhouses, which can be constructed from scraps and salvage. Unlike SAMAD, where most of the agricultural labor works on small intensive outdoor garden plots and the resource in shortest supply is water, in New England the scarcest resources are good soil for growing crops and days of the growing season. Greenhouses get around this problem by extending the growing season and by offering either intensive soil beds or hydroponics beds. One reason why the Blood Cross, a super-sized marauder band called a horde, is such a problem is that they have a tendency to raze everything in their path. Without the greenhouses (or their houses), the 30% of New England’s population still alive can’t make it another year.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Targan

So most of the time your wife does her best not to think about where meat comes from? I suspect 95% or more of westerners do the same. Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of killing something because I want to eat it. Killing it quickly and cleanly is, of course, preferred.

No disrespect to your wife (this isn't directed specifically at her) but I think people who wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal before cooking it probably should become vegetarians.

I agree that the Mrs. has no "clue" as to where the chicken, tuna and other goodies she likes so much comes from. I mean intelectually, she knows that cow=steak. That knowledge just does not come up for thought/discussion.

No disrespect understood. Wife is about 80% vegan any way. She much prefers a salad/veggies over meat.

Me, I am the omnivore of the house. I see food, I eat it. (Waist line to prove it. Sigh.) How ever, I also believe that the human race spent 2+ million years getting to the top of the food chain. I'm going to enjoy it!!!!

I agree with the idea of if you want to eat it, you should catch/kill/skin/cook.

However, as a city boy, that opportunity does not arise often. I never saw live pigs/cows/chickens until well into my 20's. You just do not see those kind of critters in downtown Philadelphia.

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

You just do not see those kind of critters in downtown Philadelphia.

Rats and pigeons on the other hand...

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Rats and pigeons on the other hand...

Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02

Mike

[WallShadow]

Quote:
"Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Rats and pigeons on the other hand...
Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02--Mike "

Yeah, but from my impressions on the indigenous feral bipedals prowling the City of Brotherly Love, cleaning them would be a real challenge, and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

...and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

Are you knocking the "extra flavour" they provide?

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Are you knocking the "extra flavour" they provide?

Leg,

You are a sick, evil, twisted fellow!!!

In other words, you fit right in !!!!

ROTF,LMAO

My $0.02

Mike

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Quote:
"Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Rats and pigeons on the other hand...
Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02--Mike "

Yeah, but from my impressions on the indigenous feral bipedals prowling the City of Brotherly Love, cleaning them would be a real challenge, and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

Yea, it's the rounding up and corraling the feral bi-peds...

Always a challange.

My $0.02

Mike

[TrailerParkJawa]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Back on topic, a good greenhouse can extend the growing season by more than 30 days at either end of the normal season. In some locations, this is the difference between having a growing season and not having a growing season. A good greenhouse can provide passive solar gain if it's attached to the south side of a house. Getting greenhouses built after the nuclear exchange is a bit of a trick, though. Still, necessity is the mother of invention and improvisation. A half-baked greenhouse is far superior to no greenhouse.

r.

Agreed, I think jury rigged green houses would we well within the range of survivors salvaging materials from empty structures. Even in a place lie California with lots of sun greenhouses would still be critical for the winter months.