Fort Knox

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

Agai, I think this comes back to contingency planning. Did (or probably more accurately does) the United States Government have a contingency plan to move gold reserves out of Fort Knox should a certain situation occur (specifically in this case the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Europe)?

Who knows...such a plan is hardly likely to be in the public domain, but surely Governments have a responsibility to anticipate different scenarios and plan accordingly. FWIW it's now open source information that the British Government planned to transfer all of its gold reserves (including reserves of other countries held in the UK) from the Bank of England to North Wales as part of its Transition to War measures - even the operation's code name can be tracked down

Recent disclosures in TNA documents identify that the tunnels at the former Valley Works at Rhydymwyn were planned to be used in the Cold War for the relocation of the 3,700 tons of gold from the Bank of England vault at Mount Pleasant. This transfer would have taken place in the run up to war and would have been effected by soldiers in 10 ton lorries. The transfer would have taken 10-14 days and the unpacked gold bars would have been unloaded and stacked by forklift. The soldiers would then have used 6,000 square feet of surface accommodation and guarded the site. This operation, originally named MALLARD, was later called FOLIUM. This arrangement was still in place in 1980

Source here

http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/...=78416&expand=

And here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10218941

[Legbreaker]

Warday isn't the best comparison to Twilight:2000 as the "war" was extremely limited in scope (only a few cities), only took a day, and only included the USA and USSR. Most of the worlds shipping and industrial capacity still exists, and includes the US (those areas not hit by nukes are easily put back into production once the EMP effects are dealt with).
Gold in that environment is easily moved across the globe, and other countries are much more able and willing to trade their products for it - products which in T2K are in extremely short supply and desperately needed in their country of origin.

[DocSavage45B10]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Lets look at the book WAR DAY for the answer to how Gold wouldbe used

The book says that the British are engaged in operations that the US has to pay for so the US transfers gold from the US Pile at Fort Knox to the British Pile

if that was to happen what country would like to have radioactive gold?

Even when there where gold coins, there were very few of them and their actual use was quite rare. Gold is just too darn valuable to use in everyday transactions, normally its like using a 1,000 bill to pay for groceries. There was a brief window in the US in the late 1800s through the early 1900s after the California and Yukon gold rushes when gold fell enough in price that gold coinage became somewhat common, but that was a particular set of circumstances.

As a backing for non-gold currency, even itself metallic (silver and copper are your usual suspects), the gold doesn't have to go anywhere, but move to piles that represent various banks. Even if the gold is hot, this matters only to the poor sods that have to move it.

In TW2K, there's enough gold commonly recoverable by mining the cities (jewelry, coin collections, industrial stocks, etc.) that anyone who needs gold coins can mint their own easily enough. And the only people who need them are those who can afford to mine the cities, IE already have food and arms and able bodies.

[DocSavage45B10]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I believe Gold acts very much like Lead in relation to radiation. Not being a physicist, I'm in no position to say more than that with anything even approaching authority.

And yes, my understanding is the gold is never actually moved anywhere - it's held in storage to back the dollar and generally give credit something solid to work with. The gold being radioactive wouldn't mean a thing since it's not actually intended to physically change hands at any time. Even large transactions don't require transfer of anything physical - just a few numbers in a computer system.

Now given the destruction of the world economic system, that will change significantly, BUT that still doesn't mean anyone would identify a need for the gold to be shifted before it (or the global economic system it forms a part of) was nuked.

From Wiki (I know usual caveats apply)

Gold (Au) has one stable isotope, 197Au, and 36 radioisotopes with 195Au being the most stable with a half-life of 186 days.

Gold has been proposed as a material for creating a salted nuclear weapon (cobalt is another, better-known salting material). A jacket of natural 197Au, irradiated by the intense high-energy neutron flux from an exploding thermonuclear weapon, would transmute into the radioactive isotope 198Au with a half-life of 2.697 days and produce approximately .411 MeV of gamma radiation, significantly increasing the radioactivity of the weapon's fallout for several days. Such a weapon is not known to have ever been built, tested, or used.

According to the entry on salted weapons, the reason Au has never been used for this purpose is that the half life is too short, and a targeted population might survive at an undesireable rate. IE it makes a bad weapon.

Worst case scenario, the gold is prime hot for just under 27 weeks.

Ah carp, hello this is IT, have tried turning it off and turning back on again?...

[Benjamin]

While initially supportive of the idea that the gold would remain at Knox, I have changed my mind. As soon as Soviet forces cross into Norway (Nov. 1996) the US would be at war with the USSR. This would certainly trigger numerous contingency plans regarding the hoarding of essential war materials and the dispersion of these materials to numerous safe sites (both known and unknown to the general public) across the nation. Sure there would be a public sigh of relief when the war remains conventional during the Nov. 1996 - July 1997 time period, but it is unlikely that preparations would cease as fighting continued. This means there is a 7-8 month period wherein the US government could implement war time plans with very little disruption. When the Tac nukes begin to fall further plans would be implemented and as China burns there would be a feeling of urgency not yet seen. So there is a 5 month period where the US really busts its butt to make ready for the coming escalation. One does not make countless doomsday plans and then not implement them just because the things take a bit longer than expected to fall completely apart.

There is a very big reason to move the gold from Knox. As soon as the strategic exchange occurs fiat currency is no better than toilet paper. This may even begin in July as the tactical exchange spooks the public and panics global markets (I can't imagine what the stock markets will look like from mid-1995 till Nov. 1997...talk about a wild ride). Unless the government wants to take all essential war material from the populace by gunpoint (and some of this is sure to happen) they will need hard currency. The best form of this is gold for many reasons.

Interestingly, the US gold reserve may be even larger in T2K than it is in real life. China will need to buy weapons. This isn't the China of today. China in 1995 is much poorer and holds less US debt, thus after forgiving what debt it holds it will need to pay using hard currency, especially as it looks as though they may loose. Furthermore to protect their remaining gold reserves it is likely they will be moved to the US by way of Hong Kong. Once China collapses the US will likely take the Chinese gold as payment for outstanding debts. Similar exchanges of hard currency will occur throughout the world as nations struggle to pay ever growing war debts. While the US will surely go into tremendous debt, once again there is no other nation to really turn to and so the US will print money, sell bonds and sell weapons to pay for the war. Once the nuclear exchanges occur bonds, paper money, stock and bank loans will mean nothing. All that remains are gold and barter. This is obvious and this is way MilGov will make every effort to retain control of the gold from Fort Knox.

[kalos72]

Good post Benjamin...

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR miltiary installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Good post Benjamin...

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR miltiary installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

My argument is that once war begins certain contingency plans will automatically go into effect. As pretty much everyone believed that war between the superpowers would eventually go nuclear and nuclear war would lead to the crippling of modern society; then preparing for this would be of vital importance for the survival of the national government. One of the most important parts of modern society (and arguably one of the most fragile) is the banking system. The war has destroyed that system.

Furthermore the idea of fiat money will also be destroyed. Some others in this thread have put forth the argument that merely having the gold and using it to back paper money or coins will be enough. With the break down of modern American society, two competing governments (three counting NA) and general anarchy throughout the nation; few people will be willing to accept the good word of an unknown military unit as they pass through a community. Sure it's nice to say their paper money is redeemable for gold but when one has to travel to Colorado Springs, Omaha or Fort Knox to get said gold then the paper money is as good as worthless. So if a government unit wants local labor or help without resorting to plundering or trading away crucial supplies they will need a hard currency that is widely recognized.

The gold will be moved from Fort Knox not because the facility is deemed unsafe, but because it is needed as a hard currency. Many of the bars will be melted down, turned into coins and handed out to agents of whichever government is able to hold Fort Knox long enough to move the gold out. Manpower shortages won't be a problem because moving the gold and preparing for the collapse of the banking system will begin as soon as US troops enter conflict against Soviet forces.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Side note though, why would the US government feel Fort Knox isnt the safest location possible? I mean it is obviously built for direct impact right?

My concern is that by the time they realized they would not be able to hold onto major portions of the country, would they have the manpower/equipment/security to move all that gold?

Remember this is a MAJOR military installation, what plan do they have for losing control over one of the largest military bases in the country?

That's my problem with shifting the gold too. We also know the Ft Knox gold isn't the only, or even largest storehouse in the country either. There are other gold deposits more likely to be shifted, such as was tried in New York.

[DocSavage45B10]

Even if the Gold is dispersed by plan, it will end up in bank vaults, not in circulation, IMO. In an agricultural-military economy, there aren't enough luxury goods to drive prices up, or enough gold to deflate its value, to make gold currency useful for anyone but warlords. You don't buy groceries with a 1,000 bill, and even Italian condoterri rarely got paid in gold anything. And when they did, they found a money changer (and got cheated) because no one could give them change for a years pay for an average worker.

The gold will be backing unit/government notes or silver and copper coins, or both, and people will be glad to take it, because the alternative is exactly worthless fiat 'script' from those same warlords, and lead as the alternative to not taking the paper. As for paying labor, anyone who controls cropland can get all the labor he needs by paying in food. And he'll need the labor because the shortage of fossil fuels and destruction of infrastructure means that farming is going to more labor intensive and the harvest less transportable.

Originally Posted by Traditiona Irish Song

"We'll give you a receipt for it, all signed by Captain Barr
And when Ireland gets her freedom, boy, you'll get your motor car"

Money does not have to have intrinsic value to be useful as a medium of exchange, in fact there are reasons why it is better to use value-less money, principly so that rulers stop asociating money with wealth, and start worrying about things like the production of goods and services.

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Furthermore the idea of fiat money will also be destroyed. Some others in this thread have put forth the argument that merely having the gold and using it to back paper money or coins will be enough. With the break down of modern American society, two competing governments (three counting NA) and general anarchy throughout the nation; few people will be willing to accept the good word of an unknown military unit as they pass through a community. Sure it's nice to say their paper money is redeemable for gold but when one has to travel to Colorado Springs, Omaha or Fort Knox to get said gold then the paper money is as good as worthless. So if a government unit wants local labor or help without resorting to plundering or trading away crucial supplies they will need a hard currency that is widely recognized.

The gold will be moved from Fort Knox not because the facility is deemed unsafe, but because it is needed as a hard currency. Many of the bars will be melted down, turned into coins and handed out to agents of whichever government is able to hold Fort Knox long enough to move the gold out. Manpower shortages won't be a problem because moving the gold and preparing for the collapse of the banking system will begin as soon as US troops enter conflict against Soviet forces.

Benjamin

[Legbreaker]

The only real use I can see for the gold is to trade with other large organisations such as foreign countries for desperately needed items such as food and fuel.
Given just about every other country is also in a very bad place and in need of every last scrap of those vital resources, it's extremely doubtful there'll be any significant trade of such items for a number of years to come, and therefore, no significant requirement for the gold. As Doc said, even a small gold coin is worth far more than the average person will expect to see in months and changing it for lesser values isn't going to be very easy. Trade in kind is the only real way of paying for anything during the recovery years as nobody can eat, burn, shelter under, or wipe their butt with gold.

Back around 2000, gold IRL was worth approximately US$35 per gram, or $35,000 per kilo. In my games I devalue it to $20 per gram and anyone who wants to use gold in transactions is either clipping small amounts from jewellery, or dealing with gold dust and a set of scales.

Even at $20 per gram, 4,578 tonnes adds up to US$91,560,000,000 - far, far more than anyone is going to need, or be able to spend in the first years of the 21st century.

While I can see the attraction in moving the gold, logically there just doesn't seem to be any need to do so when it's possible, and once the situation changes and Ft Knox is/has to be abandoned, the logistics don't stack up as possible, especially when you look at just the publicly known security measures in place.

[DocSavage45B10]

A good rule of thumb for roleplaying is $1000 per troy ounce (approx 31 grams). There are many coins that are about an ounce size so this is a useful approximation. Now this is actually a useful currency for a group of heavily armed mercenaries who buy ammunition, fuel, weapons, and manufactured goods in bulk, like say PCs. But not common people.

So no chests full of gold, but briefcases would work.

[rcaf_777]

Canadian Forces Station Carp (also CFS Carp and commonly known as The Diefenbunker) was designed to hold gold invent of nuclear war it gold vault was used a Gym is later stages of the bunker operation