Gun questions

[kcdusk]

I normally dont get into weapon discussions. I dont know allot about them, and i really just limit myself to their game stats.

But now, i have two questions.

1) The british L85. Why does it only have a magazine capacity of 20? I thought 30 was the default amount. 20 seems kinda low for an assult rifle. Even the calibre is 5.56 - so i wouldnt have thought it was related to bullet size or anything. Anyone explain why the mag only holds 20?

2) Kind of a gimmicky question, but genuine just the same. The MP-5 has always been portrayed as a superiour weapon. Special teams (SWAT) use them, they're kinda sexy. From my limted reading the weapon is reliable, a nice weight and it all helps the weapon perform "well". Yet its game stats are average, if you didnt know the names of guns, you coudnt pick the MP-5's stats off the page. Is the MP-5 all its cracked up to be? And if so, which stats if any would or should stand out as being above average?

[chico20854]

My understanding is that the L85 (and the FN-FNC and possibly the Steyr AUG) all were designed to accept the M-16 magazine, which is available in sizes from 5 rounds up to 100, although the 20 and 30 are standard in US military issue, the 20 much more rarely.

As for the MP-5, I think it has something to do with the sophistication of the action - its an elegant roller system as opposed to a simple blow-back system. What the practical effect is I can't say, but if game stats are based on things like barrel length and rate of fire I can see how it doesn't stand out from the crowd.

I'll wait for some of the real heavy-duty gun guys to opine more...

[Targan]

H&K weapons in general are known to be reliable and accurate. Those are the main reasons people choose them.

[Fusilier]

Where do you see that listed KC? I've only seen 30 round listings... ala 30 round STANAG magazines.

[jester]

The MP-5 comes off as more accurate and reliable because of a reliable action with the delayed blowback.

And it is well balanced, can be configured in some many different ways, unlike most SMGs.

And it fires from a CLOSED BOLT position. This aids in accuracy and reliability. It operated more like an assault rifle than a SMG.

And it was bounds ahead of its day. Further, it came really when the SMG was going out of fashion. Since an Assault Rifle was a better weapons system that could do a bit more in addition to most of what a SMG can do. So, it was/is a very good design that had inovations at a time when the SMG was being phased out of most services.

Ask yourself a question, how many SMGs have been on the scene since? And what was their roll and whom they were adopted by?

The SMG was for the most part replaced by the assault rifle in most nations. There really haven't been any big ones since, just smaller Assault Rifles replaced them and were called Submachinegun like the AKR and Colt Comando.

But the MP-5 in my mind would have a better reliability, a bit more accurate, and a better range than most other true SMGs.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Where do you see that listed KC? I've only seen 30 round listings... ala 30 round STANAG magazines.

Pretty sure v2.2 rule book has the L85 (IW) with a 20 round mag.

[Marc]

In the V2.2 rulebook, the L85(IW) is listed with a 20 cartridge magazine in the Small Arms Firing Chart (pag. 254) and in its own specific card (pag. 104). But in this same card, not in the game statistics line, but in the column just above it, it comes listed as use both 20 or 30 round magazines. So, I suppose that the L85 can use both type of magazines. I suppose the 30 cartridge version is the most used.

In Paul Mulcahy pages, (with permission ) the two versions of mag. are listed.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/assault_rifl...ult_rifles.htm

[pmulcahy11b]

You can put a 20-round magazine into an L-85 -- but the 20-rounder is relatively rare in military issue these days. (The last time I was issued one was in 1985 -- in the National Guard.)

[Marc]

In Spain, the CETME L Assault rifle comes with three type of mags. 10 rounds (or 12, i do not remeber), 20 and 30 rounds. But only the 30 rounds mag was normally used. The smallest was used in parade.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Yet its game stats are average, if you didnt know the names of guns, you coudnt pick the MP-5's stats off the page. Is the MP-5 all its cracked up to be? And if so, which stats if any would or should stand out as being above average?

This is largely because, at the level of detail T2K operates, there isn't that much difference between weapons of a particular caliber and type (eg, 9mm SMG, 5.56mm assault rifle). GURPS, which is more detailed, doesn't have a lot more variance.

[Raellus]

For what it's worth, I don't think that I've ever seen a picture of an L85 with a 20-round mag. I've seen plenty (like scores) of pics of what appear to be 30-round mags.

As for the MP-5, from what I've heard and/or read, it was a remarkably accurate and reliable SMG in its heyday. Now, with the 9mm round going out of fashion and newer, higher caliber SMG/carbine designs available today, the MP-5 seems to be on its way out.

[jester]

Well the MP-5 is decent for what it does. The police and special teams use it and still use it. Then again they tend to have a very specific mission like hostage rescue and similiar surgical strikes where they do not have to have a weapon that is broader in its use. And of course police are getting more and more apropriate weapons like a version of an MP-5 whatever its called in 40 S&W and .45 ACP and 10mm which are even better as they have greater stopping power and less penetration <save the 10mm> which is even more ideal for police operations.

This discussion even has me toying with the idea of a character who hefts an MP-5 as his primary weapon, its a sturdy system as long as you use it within its limits. I mean in an urban enviroment, or dense woods or similiar then I'd love one. In the open plains well I would just have to stay out of everyones range

I would think, the MP-5 for those nations who used it as a primary arm, it was issued more on par with a Carbine than a full sized battle rifle. Remember, those nations who used the MP on a large scale got the shaft when the US forced 7.62 Nato, and then after a short time we switched to 5.56. Alot of the European nations had invested in a 7.62 System mainly the G3 or the FN or a variant. And sometimes a full sized battle rifle is to much but a pistol just ins't enough. And thus, the SMG was issued. As I said similiar to the US and how we issue carbines.

[kcdusk]

So whats the reason for a 20 round mag option? Seems a silly idea.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

This is largely because, at the level of detail T2K operates, there isn't that much difference between weapons of a particular caliber and type (eg, 9mm SMG, 5.56mm assault rifle). GURPS, which is more detailed, doesn't have a lot more variance.

In 'The System That Shall Not Speak Its Name' that I use there is enough difference in the stats of H&K weapons such as the MP-5 that they are a popular choice. Mostly in the areas of accuracy, weight and the WQ (Weapon Quality) stat.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

So whats the reason for a 20 round mag option? Seems a silly idea.

Once upon a time, when the US was using the M-14 and just introducing the M-16, they figured, "well, the M-14 uses 20-round magazines, so I guess that's big enough for the M-16." They also figured it would cut down on the weight an infantryman would have to carry, and also didn't anticipate the "spray and pray" firing that the troops in Vietnam would be using on a regular basis. So the first magazines made for the M-16 were 20-rounders -- oops, make that the first nearly 100,000. And more for foreign countries. And they still made more. And then they became popular with civilians and police departments using the AR-15.

The upshot of all that is that there are a LOT of 20-round magazines floating around in the world, and they would likely get issued out later in the Twilight War or be taken off dead enemy troops, civilians, police officers, etc. It's good to know that it will fit in your weapon.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The upshot of all that is that there are a LOT of 20-round magazines floating around in the world, and they would likely get issued out later in the Twilight War or be taken off dead enemy troops, civilians, police officers, etc. It's good to know that it will fit in your weapon.

IIRC, the 30-round mags were initially issued to grenadiers using the M203 GL, as the 20-round mags didn't provide a good grip for the hand firing the GL.

[jester]

And the old M14 magazine pouches held 4 20 round magazines where as the ALICE pouches held 3 30 round magazines. And throughout the 80s and 90s you often would get bandoliers that were originaly designed to reload the 20 round magazines, they would have pockets each holding a carboard box of 2 ten round stripper clips with a total of 180 rounds, then the later ones were designed to recharge the 30 round magazines, these were boxes of 3 10 round stripper clips, each badolier holding 210 rounds. In my games, I made this fairly common when my players get new issue ammo.

And yes the 20 rounders are out there. I have had several since the 70s, a freind on a working party in supply ones had access to a embark box full of them. He didn't know that they fit the standard M16A2's we had, otherwise he would have grabbed a few. <He was timid when it came to liberating things from supply, or even asking if they wanted stuff that was never going to be used again>

I recently saw a youtuve clip where a kid in army looking digital uniform and gear was firing a SAW and it was loaded with a 20 round magazine, so even there it will work.

I think its kinda cool to have options, to show different stages of equipment, kinda like breaking out ancient stores or really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. An example, have the local militia or police who are armed with the M16EZ to also be issued with the 20 round magazines, to show that they are on a less than equil status than those in primary combat units.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

I think its kinda cool to have options, to show different stages of equipment, kinda like breaking out ancient stores or really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. An example, have the local militia or police who are armed with the M16EZ to also be issued with the 20 round magazines, to show that they are on a less than equil status than those in primary combat units.

I've had exactly this situation in my campaign. I try to fit in an amazing plethora of crappy, barely working weapons in the hands of civilians in my campaign. As I mentioned once in a thread at the old forum the USN SEAL XO of Major Po's unit once had a very near miss from a 17yo kid with a zip gun firing a thoroughly well worn, reloaded-multiple-times 12 gauge shotgun shell packed with bits of iron nails and broken glass.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Any time I've seen or used the SA-80/L85 or the L98A1 (cadet version) or the LSW its always been fitted with a 30 round magazine. It uses standard M16 mags, so I would imageine the old 20 round ones would also fit it.

[jester]

Here is one to toss out,

Since they would be scrapping the bottom of the barrel, have some 10 round magazines floating around from the 1994 Brady Bill. Hey, they could be used for training purposes, or loading them with tracer or blank rounds for firing rifle grenades, whatever reason you can come up with to have your character have a couple 10 round magazines.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I normally dont get into weapon discussions. I dont know allot about them, and i really just limit myself to their game stats.

But now, i have two questions.

1) The british L85. Why does it only have a magazine capacity of 20? I thought 30 was the default amount. 20 seems kinda low for an assult rifle. Even the calibre is 5.56 - so i wouldnt have thought it was related to bullet size or anything. Anyone explain why the mag only holds 20?

2) Kind of a gimmicky question, but genuine just the same. The MP-5 has always been portrayed as a superiour weapon. Special teams (SWAT) use them, they're kinda sexy. From my limted reading the weapon is reliable, a nice weight and it all helps the weapon perform "well". Yet its game stats are average, if you didnt know the names of guns, you coudnt pick the MP-5's stats off the page. Is the MP-5 all its cracked up to be? And if so, which stats if any would or should stand out as being above average?

L85 takes STANAG mags as already pointed out by others -the M16 mags are unpopular -or were rather back when I trained with it due to the fact that tapping the mag into the well to hard could jam it in there and jam the cation too.The squaddies just to say it was a pos and that the original mags that came with the rifle were superior .In a platoon there would always be a few non descript mags .ar15 types ,probably civillian manufactureres etc floating in the mag-pool so to say for various reasons .Some were swapped in joint traiinig,some were bought and used in secrecy by the squaddie that lost his but didnt want to say anything ,some were mixed up at the quartermasters etc etc .(A GM could give his players faulty mags too-there seem to be more faulty ones than good ones offered on th enet these days anyways)

The MP5 -used to be standard smg for the Norwegian military -still is I suppose- many agencies/militaries use them. They are efficient,reliable ,accurate -as far as SMGs are ,similar in some ways to other HK weapons such as G3 etc .I liked my MP5A3 ( I think it was) with the collapsible stock etc .It was issued to squad leaders who have a AnPRC-77,laser range finder,maps,compass,night vision etc etc to lug around too,drivers,gunners,crew men ,MPs,rear echelon types etc etc .

I liked the small weight,its handy, and the reliability -almost never a jam or other troubles,pretty accurate too up to 100 m .But I remember thinking on the big live fire exercises that the MP5 really is somewhat of a pea shoother compared to the rifles etc in a company -more of a self defence weapon or possibly for trench fighting or some such .

many other smgs are probably just as good or better -but the MP5 is solid.