Canadian C1A1/FAL use during Twilight War

[HorseSoldier]

Does anyone know a rough timeline for the replacement of the C1A1 rifle in Canadian service with the C7? Wiki research shows the C7 enters service in the early 80s, and I'm assuming all the active elements of the Canadian military would have been using it well before the Twilight War. I'm mostly wondering if, and how prevalent, the C1A1 would have been as a primary weapon for reserve units. (I'm also assuming a lot of C1A1s turned up from storage later in the war, but I'm more interested in guys who would have mobilized for wartime service with them as their issued weapon.)

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Does anyone know a rough timeline for the replacement of the C1A1 rifle in Canadian service with the C7? Wiki research shows the C7 enters service in the early 80s, and I'm assuming all the active elements of the Canadian military would have been using it well before the Twilight War. I'm mostly wondering if, and how prevalent, the C1A1 would have been as a primary weapon for reserve units. (I'm also assuming a lot of C1A1s turned up from storage later in the war, but I'm more interested in guys who would have mobilized for wartime service with them as their issued weapon.)

In my reserve unit, we transitioned to the C7 sometime during the winter 1988/1989. The C7A1 we didn't get ours till after 1997, I believe it was around 1999.

[rcaf_777]

I trained on a C7A1 in 1994, as for the C1A1 and A2 they where placed in storage when the replacement happend however many reserve units did not complete this till early to mid 90's. I know that it was only after 9/11 that the old C1A1 and A2 were final sold off out the war stock pile.

[Cdnwolf]

Weapons:

C7A1 w/C79 Elcan
C7A1 M203 w/C79 Elcan
C8A1 w/C79 Elcan

C7A2 w/C79 Elcan
C7A2 w/ Eo-Tech
C7A2 w/C79 Elcan M203
C7A2 M203 w/Eo-Tech
C8A1 w/Eo-Tech
C8A1 w/C79 Elcan M203
C8A1 M203 w/Eo-Tech
C8A1 w/C79 Elcan SD
C8A1 M203 w/C79 Elcan SD
C8A1 w/Eo-Tech SD
C8A1 M203 w/Eo-Tech SD
C8CQB w/C79 Elcan
C8CQB w/Eo-Tech
C8CQB w/C79 Elcan SD
C8CQB w/Eo-Tech SD

C6 GPMG
C9A2 LMG
C9A2 LMG w/Eo-tech
C9A2 LMG w/C79 Elcan

M72A6
Carl Gustav 84mm
Carl Gustav 84mm w/ Optics

(Taken from an Arma 2 forum lol)

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I trained on a C7A1 in 1994, as for the C1A1 and A2 they where placed in storage when the replacement happend however many reserve units did not complete this till early to mid 90's. I know that it was only after 9/11 that the old C1A1 and A2 were final sold off out the war stock pile.

So it sounds like Canadian reserves tasked with Pacific Coast defense and aiding US forces when the defense of Alaska becomes an issue would probably all have been AR type rifles, with the C1A1s mostly only turning up as possible issue to reconstituting units or newly forming/expanding reserve units as the available supply of C7s dried up. Does that sound right-ish to our Canadian members?

(All of the above relating to my pushing around ideas for my forever work-in-progress Alaska T2K sourcebook.)

Edit to Add: With war breaking out, what about the Canadian Rangers? I was thinking some limited infantry-type training, probably via mobile training teams that go to them, and replacement of their SMLEs with C1A1s.

[bobcat]

i figured the C1A1's would have been issued to the RCMP for local defence.

fun fact:the RCMP was originally formed to keep americans from crossing the border in pursuit of hostile native americans(kind of like the pakistani border guard just replace "native americans" with taliban)

[James Langham]

My guess is that the Rangers would keep the .303 for the reliability and ease of use (they hadn't replaced it in all the time the C1 was in service).

RCMP units served in WW1 and 2 as Military Police units - I have included some in my work on the Canadians (which one day may be complete enough to submit...).

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

So it sounds like Canadian reserves tasked with Pacific Coast defense and aiding US forces when the defense of Alaska becomes an issue would probably all have been AR type rifles, with the C1A1s mostly only turning up as possible issue to reconstituting units or newly forming/expanding reserve units as the available supply of C7s dried up. Does that sound right-ish to our Canadian members?

(All of the above relating to my pushing around ideas for my forever work-in-progress Alaska T2K sourcebook.)

Edit to Add: With war breaking out, what about the Canadian Rangers? I was thinking some limited infantry-type training, probably via mobile training teams that go to them, and replacement of their SMLEs with C1A1s.

I think according to Cannon some Canadian units had the M16EZ, which I could see happening, I think you'd see the C1A1, C1D1(Navy Model) and the Automatic C2A1 and the C1 Submachine Gun used by Units made up of men recalled to active duty, these men that would too old or medical unsuitable for active service (Home Service Force)

The Canadian Rangers are issued the .303 British calibre Lee Enfield No 4 rifle, with each user being provided with 200 rounds of ammunition every year. While the bolt action Lee-Enfield has been out of general service in the Canadian military since the 1950s, it has proven to be reliable in the Arctic environment. Canadian Rangers carry the weapon primarily for subsistence and protection against predators rather than with the expectation of engaging an enemy force. The Rangers are to act a guides for other military units operating in the Arctic.

Originally Posted by bobcat

i figured the C1A1's would have been issued to the RCMP for local defence .

The RCMP also have C7 and C7A1 in there inventory as well as MP-5N I think the plan would been to try and have enough of those on hand for each officer and equiped the RCMP Auxiliary Constables would equiped with Lee Enfield No 4 rifle or Remington Model 870 Shotgun

[HorseSoldier]

The Canadian Rangers are issued the .303 British calibre Lee Enfield No 4 rifle, with each user being provided with 200 rounds of ammunition every year. While the bolt action Lee-Enfield has been out of general service in the Canadian military since the 1950s, it has proven to be reliable in the Arctic environment. Canadian Rangers carry the weapon primarily for subsistence and protection against predators rather than with the expectation of engaging an enemy force. The Rangers are to act a guides for other military units operating in the Arctic.

Yeah -- I was thinking that in the run up to war, or certainly after the war breaks out and there is some possibility that Rangers (at least in certain parts of Canada) may actually face enemy contact, conversion to the C1A1 might be deemed desirable. (Bit of a hard sell to convince a lot of guys to go patrolling with SMLEs if they know they might have contact with guys with AKs and PKs -- even if the plan is to break contact and run like hell, that's not heartwarming.)

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Bit of a hard sell to convince a lot of guys to go patrolling with SMLEs if they know they might have contact with guys with AKs and PKs

The Rangers are not a combat force I couldn’t see them operating alone with out conventional forces, once the balloon went up I don't see them going anywhere without Canadian Military Units, the plan was always for Canadian Units to move closer to Arctic to have a more rapid deployment. Given the limited area which any force could operate in the Arctic Circle, I could see the units setting up makeshift camps in Northern Alberta and B.C. this would mechanized infantry companies and Armoured (Tank) Squadrons mostly likely made into Combat Teams. The Airborne Regt would be used a Reserve and would be parachuted ahead of any advancing force to delay them long enough to allow other units to arrive. The Rangers would act as guides to these units who are unfamiliar with the area, and provide advice on conditions in the area.

Now on another note, having seen and worked with the Rangers, I can tell most of them are very good shots and very good at handing a bolt action rifle and 30.06 is very hard hitting round, the rangers will it taken hunting often. And any weapon and ammo that can take down a Bull Moose or Polar Bear is good enough to take on troops! Also let add that Rangers know the area and really good hunters, for some of them it’s how they live. So that soviet patrol that the rangers do run into might not want to give chase if the Rangers kill a few with long range shots.

Also outfiting the Rangers with a new weapon would be a huge under taking, by the time Twilight rolls around also many of the rank file of the army know the C7 not the C1A1, only the more senior soldiers could be used to train the rangers, in past the rangers were only given about two weeks of training and most of that was on the Lee Enfield Rifle. Unlike the 207th Infantry Group in Alaska, the Rangers are not members of any military branch, but at the time of the war they would have fell under the Chief of Reserves and Cadets who is under the Vice Chief of Defence Staff.

They are allowed to elect there own Patrol Leaders and Assistant Patrol Leaders, who wear the rank of Sergeant and Master Corporal. Support of the Military comes from a few Military Officers and NCO’s who oversee training and Admin and Pay. In short they more useful finding airline crashes and provided advice, they lack alot of military training, IE tactics, modern weapons, displine ect and they have no leadship behond the patrol leader. So given them moden weapons give their role and function dose make alot of sense

Anyway food for thought

[Cdnwolf]

Fascinating article about expanding bases into the Arctic.

The plan could result in remote bases and a small-but-permanent military presence in far-off communities.

Locations could include Alert, Inuvik, Whitehorse, Rankin Inlet, Iqaluit or Nanisivik, according to the technical memorandum prepared by the research wing of the military last year.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...ases-in-arctic

[Targan]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Now on another note, having seen and worked with the Rangers, I can tell most of them are very good shots and very good at handing a bolt action rifle and 30.06 is very hard hitting round, the rangers will it taken hunting often.

I thought the Canadian Arctic Rangers used .303 SMLEs?

[Cdnwolf]

Canadian Rangers are issued the .303 British calibre Lee Enfield No 4 rifle, with each user being provided with 200 rounds of ammunition every year.

While the bolt action Lee-Enfield has been out of general service in the Canadian military since the 1950s, it has proven to be reliable in the Arctic environment. Canadian Rangers carry the weapon primarily for subsistence and protection against predators rather than with the expectation of engaging an enemy force.

Owning to the decreasing availability of spare parts, the replacement of the Lee-Enfield rifle had long been expected and in August 2011 after user requirements had been determined, the Canadian Forces officially issued a tender request for a bolt-action rifle compatible with 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester. Approximately 10,000 rifles were to be bought giving the system a service life of about 30 years. The new rifles were to be manufactured under license by Colt Canada and to be in service by 2015.