AGIlity related question

[General Pain]

I just had a discussion with "the devil" and "FMDeCorba" and the question from me was basically:

How many handguns can a character wear (with straps etc) before it reduces Agility score?

Characters are not encumbered.

[kato13]

As a GM i would say 4. Two underarms on ribs and two upper thighs. Any more and the straps or the weight of the weapon will start to measurably restrict or impede movement IMHO.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by kato13

As a GM i would say 4. Two underarms on ribs and two upper thighs. Any more and the straps or the weight of the weapon will start to measurably restrict or impede movement IMHO.

The character might be able to add a couple of small pistols (eg, Walther PPK) in ankle holsters.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by copeab

The character might be able to add a couple of small pistols (eg, Walther PPK) in ankle holsters.

Yeah I thought about that, but I know the General's penchant for double barreled sawed off (4 gauge?) shotguns, so I assumed he would never even consider such peashooters

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by kato13

Yeah I thought about that, but I know the General's penchant for double barreled sawed off (4 gauge?) shotguns, so I assumed he would never even consider such peashooters

thanx for the confidence Kato...this gave me a laugh. I was actually asking as a GM and not player. But for the sake of argument; lets say we are talking about seperate "BULK"-values.

For example would a character with high AGIlity be able to carry more "BLK=1"-weapons that a character with low AGIlity?

Would a possible solution be AGIlity divided by 2 be the amount of bulk a pc can carry? Then what about BLK=0 wapons like small derringers?

Feedback would be apreciated.

[kato13]

I would think that a characters physical size, and to a lesser extent strength, would more related to how many weapons they can carry than their agility. A small character with an unheard of agility (like an Olympic female gymnast) would have their agility restricted more than a professional NFL football player would with the same amount of weapons.

[Legbreaker]

How long is a peice of string?
It depends a lot on the characters body size, weapon shape, as well as what they intend doing.
The larger the body, the more surface area.
The bulkier the weapon obviously the more surface area it will require - weapons with pistol grips are also likely to take more space than ones without (modern autmatic pistols compared with a sawn off shotgun or antique flintlock).
And as for what they're doing, crawling with equipment, weapons of otherwise basically requires little or nothing attached to the front of the body, legs, etc or it's going to be very difficult and uncomfortable.

I don't think there can be any hard and fast rule for how much, etc - it's always going to be a GMs call based on the above points and anything else relevant to the situation. Impact on the Agility stat itself is in my opinion, not the best reflection of the true effects.

[jester]

How about we look at it in a diferent view.

Lets consider the places a pistol can be worn practicaly for combat.

We have discussed the whole thigh rig. <which would make it impossible to wear a traditional belt rig and vice versa>

Belt rig either high, mid or low ride <see above and making it impossible to wear a thigh rig>

A high ride you may be able to wear a thigh rig, but it would interfere with an under the arm rig.

Under the arm/shoulder rig

Chest rig, these are usualy a cross draw afair.

Crossdraw rig on the very front of the pants,

2 places to wear a pistol in the small of the back, they have all maner of holsters that can allow this.

Something like a Glock 19 one could wear 8, this is silly though.

As for ankle holsters, nice and good concealment, but try running with one. They have backpocket and inside the pants holsters that fit much better and are more practical.

A set up I would preffer would be 3 standard issue pistols 1 as a primary in a thigh rig, another in a should or chest rig and 1 in a small of the back holster as the latter I can draw with either hand.

[headquarters]

1 in a high ride belt or strapped to thigh- and one in shoulder/chest works fine .(but any and all gear interferes a bit compared to shorts and t-shirt as the optimum for agility and speed etc ) but question :

small of the back gun -what about bending over /arching back or rolling over -does it get in the way for stuff like lying on your back etc or is this negible.

As for a quick rule I would have to say that there needs to be one rule for light and agile short duration /agent type stuff and one for regular gear type jobs /infantry tasks .(meaning the full list /gear and ammo for a longer thing)

On my vest I can easily wear 2 handguns and 6 x30 rnd clips before having to add on other stuff like pouches etc .This can be expanded as I go along though - .But to remain agile ( to the extent that I am anyways ) less is definently more.

Originally Posted by jester

How about we look at it in a diferent view.

Lets consider the places a pistol can be worn practicaly for combat.

We have discussed the whole thigh rig. <which would make it impossible to wear a traditional belt rig and vice versa>

Belt rig either high, mid or low ride <see above and making it impossible to wear a thigh rig>

A high ride you may be able to wear a thigh rig, but it would interfere with an under the arm rig.

Under the arm/shoulder rig

Chest rig, these are usualy a cross draw afair.

Crossdraw rig on the very front of the pants,

2 places to wear a pistol in the small of the back, they have all maner of holsters that can allow this.

Something like a Glock 19 one could wear 8, this is silly though.

As for ankle holsters, nice and good concealment, but try running with one. They have backpocket and inside the pants holsters that fit much better and are more practical.

A set up I would preffer would be 3 standard issue pistols 1 as a primary in a thigh rig, another in a should or chest rig and 1 in a small of the back holster as the latter I can draw with either hand.

[Legbreaker]

Of course the whole idea is silly.

What's wrong with simply carrying extra mags? Takes about as long to reload as it does to draw a weapon, and they're far, FAR lighter and less bulky.

[Krejcik]

agreed with the whole idea is silly.

Practically speaking why would you carry so many? To look cool? And are you going to be so trained to be able to manipulate all of those pistols and clips with such ease to draw them, reload, reload, reload, draw another, holster the previous, reload, etc, etc?

If it's a John Woo thing, OK I get it. But if it's a twilight 2k thing I don't.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I have to agree with previous posters - why bother with multiple weapons when clips are easier to carry? Personally I'd opt for one sidearm and a smaller backup weapon, preferrably using the same calibres.

[FMDeCorba]

Originally Posted by Krejcik

agreed with the whole idea is silly.

Practically speaking why would you carry so many? To look cool? And are you going to be so trained to be able to manipulate all of those pistols and clips with such ease to draw them, reload, reload, reload, draw another, holster the previous, reload, etc, etc?

If it's a John Woo thing, OK I get it. But if it's a twilight 2k thing I don't.

Thank you! I play with these jokers(Devil & Pain), and frankly, people can have very differing ideas of "realism".

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by FMDeCorba

Thank you! I play with these jokers(Devil & Pain), and frankly, people can have very differing ideas of "realism".

ahh realism.....I remember your character digging out a derringer hidden where the sun don shine ...in melee combat. Very realistic.

[headquarters]

-preferably bring more than one gun - rule number ..I cant remember..

different schools of thought I guess.If I knew I was going to one I would bring more than one gun if I could. ( Shooting both at the same time is for John Woo )

What kind of guns is a the second part of the question .

But I can see how it is useful to for instance cover people with two guns instead of one ,however I can also see how in RL its silly .

But it is a game -as a GM I say

half STR if firing two simultaneously and no aimed shots with the secondary or whilst operating the number 2 gun .Also target selection have to follow a co-axial principle ( no targeting people further apart than 4 meters -depending )

No saying NO -just give penalties as the general say .As far as his twin 10 gage sawed of dbl barreleds go (slug/buck in either barrel and rigged to go off at one pull of the trigger ) - not many other players mess with him .And as you know -there is no coming back from that one.

Guys ,enough with the gun up the ass jokes-after re reading the map he did grasp the meaning of "he is charging you with a machete from 10 meters away2 and zipped his pants up again without ACTUALLY committing to the combat-cavity extraction of gun procedure he first tried to persuade me that was the correct choice in that -or for that matter -any such situation ).I did however ,not let him get off such use of a mulligan without a penalty -he started his phase in the squatting position .

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by General Pain

ahh realism.....I remember your character digging out a derringer hidden where the sun don shine ...in melee combat. Very realistic.

The results of an ND don't bear thinking about!

[Rupert Willies]

I vividly remember him actually producing the gun, it took several rounds. He only realized the error of his gun ass-cavation, after taking the first blow to the face.

At least that is how I remember it, being the only sober person in the room. Of course, it may be that you beer and wine guzzling Mount-Gay-Rum-fiends remember this more accurately than me..

But I digress... Sorry for bringing this into the thread. I would only carry two guns: on small and one big. The small one to shoot little guys, and the big one to shoot everyone else. For a small gun I'd bring a .40 cal small frame gun with 15 shot capacity. For a big gun, I'd bring a really large revolver, like a Taurus Raging Bull .454 Casull. It can kill almost anything. Slap on a scope, and you are ready to hunt.

>Again, sorry for bringing up the truth about the "ass-gun incident"

[Marc]

Well, I must admit that it’s not the first time that I try to imagine one of your gaming sessions… And I always discover that you’re one step beyond my imagination…

[jester]

I can think of several reasons one would have or desire multiple sidearms:

1.) What if you are wearing a pistol on your belt or even a thigh rig, and that is between you and a car door. Try drawing it while seated. I did it once, between the idiot trying to yank me through the window, the seatbelt the pistol ended up on the floor under the seat and I had to cave the characters face in with my walkie talkie and pray the pistol didn't fall out in his reach when I opened the door.

2.) You are injured in the hand that your holster is on. I saw a guy turn and miscaculated and his hand with pistol slammed into a steel post knocking said pistol from his hand and breaking it <his hand> Now, imagine this, your hand is broken or otherwise injured and you are wearing the pistol in a thigh or belt rig. Try to draw the pistol, or reload or cock it.

3.) Weapons malfunction? What if your weapon stovepipes? Spend the next 10 seconds clearing the jam durring a shootout?

4.) Body position: similiar to the vehicle scenario, what if you are in such a position where you can not reach a pistol on your belt or in a thigh rig?

5.) Concealability: they know you have a rifle, and you put it down, they see the pistol on your hip and you take that off. But do they expect you to have a second pistol on you as well? After all who regularly carries a pistol in a concealed small of the back rig? Although one can easily hide a beretta or 1911 there under a modern uniform blouse without it being noticed.

Anyhow, those are some of the reasons I can see someone especialy in the violent world of T2K carrying a second primary pistol on them and then maybe a 3rd holdout pistol for when/if things gett REALLY REALLY bad.

[Krejcik]

Look i just brought it up not to be a troll but b/c the character I'm playing now ended up with an obscenely high small arms pistol score due to carrier choices. Rather than come up with all the cool shit he could carry, I couldn't rationalize him being able to find hips holsters, arm holsters, anal holsters, etc. Yeah you could make one but I almost had him carry 3 pistols and may in the end, but two just seems realistic and enough. So my character, being a non-commando type anyway, runs w/ two. Hand Cannon and something odd but effective.

You can roll like Commando. That's fine. My style in Twilight 2k is more practical and at least I try to be realistic, so it doesn't gel w/ me.

[FMDeCorba]

Well, obviously I´m going to be reminded of that drunken session forever
Not surprised really, any idiot will turn to slander when they have no good arguments.
But seriously, this should be about preferred gaming styles, and that will largely be up to the GM in cases like this, giving penalties or not. It is however interesting to note that the people most eager for a John Woo style character and game style (munchkins i believe is the term) are also the ones having spent most time on their asses in real life, and hence lacking somewhat in actual experience carrying a weapon for any distance at all.

[Legbreaker]

Back in the day, I only ever really carried two weapons (if you ignore grenades, claymores, bayonets, LAWs, etc).

An M60 machinegun and a hand axe...

Why bother with all those pathetic little peashooters when you can riddle them with lead? And believe me, there's nothing scarier than somebody shaking an axe at you!



From the rules perspective, pistols are little better than a thrown rock with most only doing 1D6 damage and recoil restricting accurate shooting for an average character to just one or two shots per turn/phase. Range is also usually pathetic compared to the rock (at least at close and medium for an average to strong character).

Even 5.56mm and 5.45mm rifles are rather underpowered really which is why I usually go for nothing short of 7.62N. In my view, if you absolutely have to have a sidearm, there's nothing better than an 8 gauge sawnoff shotgun.

Description: Referees must give heed if a character chooses to use this weapon. Ammunition will not be found; it must be made. It also makes a LOT of noise. People will know you are there. OBS improves one difficulty level to find a character using this weapon. Not to mention it is a true calling sign. Not many people have one of these and ‘survivors’ will remember characters by this weapon. Damage at Medium range is halved; anything past medium range is unaffected physically but must make a panic check. The advantages of this weapon are obvious. Damage of 7 (14 buckshot at close range), and very easy to conceal. When a character misses, the target character must make a panic check at –3 for short range and –2 for medium range. Failure is treated like any other panic failure (the character freezes or flees.)

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by jester

I can think of several reasons one would have or desire multiple sidearms:

1.) What if you are wearing a pistol on your belt or even a thigh rig, and that is between you and a car door. Try drawing it while seated. I did it once, between the idiot trying to yank me through the window, the seatbelt the pistol ended up on the floor under the seat and I had to cave the characters face in with my walkie talkie and pray the pistol didn't fall out in his reach when I opened the door.

2.) You are injured in the hand that your holster is on. I saw a guy turn and miscaculated and his hand with pistol slammed into a steel post knocking said pistol from his hand and breaking it <his hand> Now, imagine this, your hand is broken or otherwise injured and you are wearing the pistol in a thigh or belt rig. Try to draw the pistol, or reload or cock it.

3.) Weapons malfunction? What if your weapon stovepipes? Spend the next 10 seconds clearing the jam durring a shootout?

4.) Body position: similiar to the vehicle scenario, what if you are in such a position where you can not reach a pistol on your belt or in a thigh rig?

5.) Concealability: they know you have a rifle, and you put it down, they see the pistol on your hip and you take that off. But do they expect you to have a second pistol on you as well? After all who regularly carries a pistol in a concealed small of the back rig? Although one can easily hide a beretta or 1911 there under a modern uniform blouse without it being noticed.

Anyhow, those are some of the reasons I can see someone especialy in the violent world of T2K carrying a second primary pistol on them and then maybe a 3rd holdout pistol for when/if things gett REALLY REALLY bad.

I agree totally.

btw:My question was how many guns in blk level 1 you can carry in regards to the agility score, not why you would have many.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by FMDeCorba

Well, obviously I´m going to be reminded of that drunken session forever
Not surprised really, any idiot will turn to slander when they have no good arguments.
But seriously, this should be about preferred gaming styles, and that will largely be up to the GM in cases like this, giving penalties or not. It is however interesting to note that the people most eager for a John Woo style character and game style (munchkins i believe is the term) are also the ones having spent most time on their asses in real life, and hence lacking somewhat in actual experience carrying a weapon for any distance at all.

don't worry, I will keep reminding you...

on the other hand ,the general have done his fair share of horrible last minute choices,and it's all in good fun anyway.

It's usually the most absurd actions that get remembered in our campaigns.

Like the time my character, pushed a 155mm AT grenade down a elevator shaft in one of the biggest ammo-stores in Poland. Sanchez' character saw a 400m high explosion from a 2km distance. Atleast I didn't go alone...think I got a couple of players and loads of npcs/enemies with me to limbo.

[theDevil]

ass-gun, drunk pilots(i mean real drunk, not the drunk pilot you get on charter trips), gay-boy-toy, boat of whores, endless tunnels... like the list is, well.. ..endless of funny situations, that I personally never can see happening in rl even if i became a million years.

But the question still stands: how many guns can a charachter carries before he walks like an egyptian.

i do not mind the reality of gravity, explotion, and all that. it is just that when i play, i do not want everything to be "realistic", personally i would have a "bag of holding" if it where possible, but sadly it is not...

so:
1 small gun at ankle holster
2 guns on the thigh
2 guns under arms
1 small gun on the lower-back

i would say that normally this would not give an agility penality, but doing acrobatic moves, like tumbling, would maybe give a hp, or two, of damage on your back or something. if gm is in a bad mood maybe a crippling invertibre damage, making the pc pay a long time for his/her audacity.

then suddenly you got realisme again... ...even though he carried six guns alá matrix

[FMDeCorba]

Nevertheless, it boils down to preferences of style.
All narrative entertainment relies on a certain level of what is called "suspension of disbelief", meaning that the zombie movie director(for instance) has to make a good effort at making the zombies seem "real", or it quickly becomes a really terrible movie. Or perhaps entertaining in a turkey sort of way.
I might be kinda picky, but i vastly prefer movies that are able to convince me that the portrayed firefights look and sound a bit like they do in reality to John Woo movies, for example.

If a character chooses to strap up with 6 different pistols and ammo, they should also be reminded that the rigs itch when they get sweaty, the pistols themselves will sometimes snag, sitting in a car with a revolver in your lower back will be pretty annoying etc. Being even slightly uncomfortable over several hours will lessen focus and performance for anyone, and hence should be reflected in some sort of fatigue penalty or otherwise.

Playing according to what is optimum "use" of the vanilla rules results in the protagonists being constantly clad in thick armor (rain or shine), always carrying an assortment of big bore rifles and shotguns and always carrying excactly the load allowed by the characters score without encumbrance, etc.-- Bad movie.

[headquarters]

you mcan do this in my campaign ,every once in a while I will say something like "one of your guns have been lost -holster is empty .." or " landing on your side the pistol crushes into your ribs for an additional 2 hp "

Any ways -I am thinking of going with Gen Pains suggestion - AG/2 as the max number before you get pen on various moves .

As for FMDeCorbas munchkin comment - me no like .

It is a game after all.

Originally Posted by theDevil

ass-gun, drunk pilots(i mean real drunk, not the drunk pilot you get on charter trips), gay-boy-toy, boat of whores, endless tunnels... like the list is, well.. ..endless of funny situations, that I personally never can see happening in rl even if i became a million years.

But the question still stands: how many guns can a charachter carries before he walks like an egyptian.

i do not mind the reality of gravity, explotion, and all that. it is just that when i play, i do not want everything to be "realistic", personally i would have a "bag of holding" if it where possible, but sadly it is not...

so:
1 small gun at ankle holster
2 guns on the thigh
2 guns under arms
1 small gun on the lower-back

i would say that normally this would not give an agility penality, but doing acrobatic moves, like tumbling, would maybe give a hp, or two, of damage on your back or something. if gm is in a bad mood maybe a crippling invertibre damage, making the pc pay a long time for his/her audacity.

then suddenly you got realisme again... ...even though he carried six guns alá matrix

[FMDeCorba]

It is indeed a game, and I apologize. I was just a little annoyed that a drunken misunderstanding was being held against me on a public forum like that, uncool. Unfortunately, I stooped to their level and fired back.

[TiggerCCW UK]

At the end of the day, go with what suits your campaign. I attempt to never criticise peoples game styles just because they don't match mine, and in the same way I'm sure my game wouldn't be everyones cup of tea. Personally I've never been a fan of ankle holsters as I reckon they'd be uncomfortable and awkward, unless used with a tiny pistol like a derringer, but I've never used one so I'm not sure. I'd favour chest/shoulder rigs, thigh or waist holsters and back holsters, but I appreciate that these all have their drawbacks. According to books I've read plain clothes troops over here rarely bothered with holsters for pistols as they were an obvious way of marking them out as troops, and also, particularly in cars, there was no easy way to draw a weapon from a concealed holster. They usually opted for driving with the pistol tucked under their thigh where they could easily reach it, or tucked in a door pocket.

Similar question regarding holsters - what size of weapon would you allow a holster for? I read an article about the then new MP5 PDW many years ago, that suggested it being used as a side arm for air crew as it would be more useful than a pistol. The suggestion was that it would be carried in a dual thigh rig with the loaded weapon and two spare 15 round mags on one leg and three 30 round mags and a suppressor on the other leg. I reckon this would make running, crawling and all other combat related jumping about a bit tricky. Anyone any ideas how it would have worked out and whether this system ever went into service?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Similar question regarding holsters - what size of weapon would you allow a holster for? I read an article about the then new MP5 PDW many years ago, that suggested it being used as a side arm for air crew as it would be more useful than a pistol. The suggestion was that it would be carried in a dual thigh rig with the loaded weapon and two spare 15 round mags on one leg and three 30 round mags and a suppressor on the other leg. I reckon this would make running, crawling and all other combat related jumping about a bit tricky. Anyone any ideas how it would have worked out and whether this system ever went into service?

The pilots at the Night Stalkers (the 160th) are in fact authorized to carry the MP5K as a sidearm, generally in a thigh holster. Few of the 160th's pilots do so, and most of those are Little Bird (MH-6) pilots, because they are just too encumbering in a helicopter cockpit.