3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment (3ACR) (US)

[James Langham]

Another unit history. As ever comments and nit picks welcome.

[The Rifleman]

That was pretty darn good. You used the right nomeclature and had some fantastic details. Do you have more of these done?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

That was pretty darn good. You used the right nomeclature and had some fantastic details. Do you have more of these done?

Thanks, being from the UK it's nice when I get things right for foreign units.

Try a search for:
US
29th Division
49th Division

UK
7th Armoured Brigade
12th Armoured Brigade
22nd Armoured Brigade
Polish Rifle Regiment - fictional
27 SAS - fictional
RAF Regiment
Royal Naval Party 67 - fictional
Royal Observer Corps

Pact
Chinese Liberation Army - fictional
German Free Legion - fictional

Misc
Foreign Troops
Netherlands Auxilliary Corps - fictional
US Border Guard

There are quite a few others but these are the unit histories. Next will probably be the UK 44th Airborne Brigade.

Hope you enjoy them as much.

[The Rifleman]

Thanks for the heads up on the others. You must read alot because you got it right. Also, using the M-1 from a game snapshot was a great idea.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

Thanks for the heads up on the others. You must read alot because you got it right. Also, using the M-1 from a game snapshot was a great idea.

Thanks again - I do get things wrong - see the 29th Division initial article.

I use whatever snapshots I find that look right regardless of source - there are some amazing pics if you look hard enough.

[Panther Al]

The only thing I would recommend changing is the German Nomenclature of the Regiment once it was incorporated into the German Army.


I always felt its make up and role, as well as its actual name itself, would more likely lead to it being called perhaps the 3d. PanzerAufklärungs Schwadron. Given that you still have them as a heavy armoured units, it makes even more sense in my point of view.

[stilleto69]

Great Work John, only 1 nitpick AH-1s are "Cobras" not "Apaches". Otherwise great work as always.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

The only thing I would recommend changing is the German Nomenclature of the Regiment once it was incorporated into the German Army.


I always felt its make up and role, as well as its actual name itself, would more likely lead to it being called perhaps the 3d. PanzerAufklärungs Schwadron. Given that you still have them as a heavy armoured units, it makes even more sense in my point of view.

Thanks, when a former member is happy with a unit write up that's a good sign! If there are any in-jokes you want including or if you have any useful additions please let me know.

German (in fact any language) has never been a strong point of mine. I did consider using the term PanzerAufklärungs which would be technically correct, however I liked the sound of the term I used plus it gave a differentiation of it being ex-American and keeping its traditions. What do others, especially our German experts think?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by stilleto69

Great Work John, only 1 nitpick AH-1s are "Cobras" not "Apaches". Otherwise great work as always.

Bad choice of name on my part, it was intended as an individual vehicle name not a model name. I will change to make it clearer.

[Adm.Lee]

Pretty good. Some spelling errors I noticed, but I'm rushed right now. Would you like a list later?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Pretty good. Some spelling errors I noticed, but I'm rushed right now. Would you like a list later?

Please, spelling is never my strongest point.

[Olefin]

Very good work - really brings the regiment to life. However I dont agree with the 3rd ACR staying in Germany because it didnt want to go home and fight CivGov units - for one with the Russians and Mexicans still occupying US territory there are lots of foreign enemies for them to fight still.

I think it was more that they didnt agree with the decision to leave a US ally in the lurch - i.e. the Germans and British troops who were still fighting the Soviets - and also the fact that there were US troops still cut off in Poland.

The 3rd ACR more likely would have stayed to try to at the very least make contact with the cutoff troops, especially after the Soviet units started to disintegrate in late 2000/early 2001 and get those guys back to Germany where at least they are on friendly soil compared to Poland and the Baltics.

That explanation makes a lot more sense (and can be extended to other units who didnt come home) than just not wanting to go home to fight CivGov units.

Plus there is nothing in canon that says the US and Canadian units cut off in Poland never came home except a non-canon article in a Twilight 2300 site. Thus a more likely 2001 event for them is a drive to make contact with the cutoff units, evacuating them in a body with as much equipment as can be salvaged and then proceeding from there, possibly to help the Germans clear the last of the Russians out of German and Austrian territory.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Very good work - really brings the regiment to life. However I dont agree with the 3rd ACR staying in Germany because it didnt want to go home and fight CivGov units - for one with the Russians and Mexicans still occupying US territory there are lots of foreign enemies for them to fight still.

I think it was more that they didnt agree with the decision to leave a US ally in the lurch - i.e. the Germans and British troops who were still fighting the Soviets - and also the fact that there were US troops still cut off in Poland.

The 3rd ACR more likely would have stayed to try to at the very least make contact with the cutoff troops, especially after the Soviet units started to disintegrate in late 2000/early 2001 and get those guys back to Germany where at least they are on friendly soil compared to Poland and the Baltics.

That explanation makes a lot more sense (and can be extended to other units who didnt come home) than just not wanting to go home to fight CivGov units.

Plus there is nothing in canon that says the US and Canadian units cut off in Poland never came home except a non-canon article in a Twilight 2300 site. Thus a more likely 2001 event for them is a drive to make contact with the cutoff units, evacuating them in a body with as much equipment as can be salvaged and then proceeding from there, possibly to help the Germans clear the last of the Russians out of German and Austrian territory.

Thanks. My main aim for the reasoning behind the non-evacuation was to show some of the possible reasons for not evacuating. I actually regard not wanting to fight CIVGOV as very unlikely and meant it more as war weariness. The logistics of reaching Bremehaven also play a part, after all if you are secure where you are is it worth gambling on getting back to a place that actually may be worse than you are and then have to go back to war?

I saw Op Omega as a last chance to evacuate as formed units and envisioned the 3rd ACR gradually becoming German in the same manner the Royal American Rifles became the 60th Rifles with no Americans in British service in the 18th-19th centuries (hence the note reversing the process in the British 7th Armoured Brigade article). I'm not sure the leaving the allies in the lurch would be a lower level attitude among the mainly draftee soldiers but it might be more common at higher level. It's a good point and it may reappear in a future article.

I also see Germany fracturing into the component states as in 2300 over the next few years.

I get the distinct feeling that my idea of TW2000 is bleaker than yours although there is nothing in cannon that would really support either way of looking at it for this part of the background. One of the nice things about the group is this mix of views.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

I actually regard not wanting to fight CIVGOV as very unlikely and meant it more as war weariness. The logistics of reaching Bremehaven also play a part, after all if you are secure where you are is it worth gambling on getting back to a place that actually may be worse than you are and then have to go back to war?

Would the military really be telling the soldiers what the true situation back home is? Would much information about the capabilities, or even legitimacy of Civgov be available? It seems unlikely.
We know information from home is scarce already - Red Star, Lone Star shows us that the characters don't even know Texas is no longer part of the USA, and Soviets on US soil is disregarded as just one of the wilder rumours. Therefore a civilian run alternate government may seem to most like just another fantasy - at least until they're back in the US for a while and can see for themselves.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Would the military really be telling the soldiers what the true situation back home is? Would much information about the capabilities, or even legitimacy of Civgov be available? It seems unlikely.

There would be strong rumours though. The CIA would make sure of that.

[Legbreaker]

Exactly. Rumours.
Many might even put those rumours into the same basket as alien landings,
Michael Jackson being white, or black man having a snowflakes chance in hell of becoming US President!

[Olefin]

Keep in mind James that many of the units in the US Army by 2000 would have contingents in them, per canon, of non-US soldiers already- perhaps the 3rd ACR already had so many Germans and Brits and other NATO troops in it that Europe was really its home now and not the US

The excellent article that was posted a few weeks ago on Germany shows how the US troops that were left behind could have reformed themselves under the US HQ units that stayed behind,especially after DIA agents helped bring several of them back over to being under US operational control.

You are right in that we do have different ideas of how bleak it is in Twilight 2000 - and my view by the way is hardly sunny - but its defintiely not as pitch black as Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped portrays it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

...not as pitch black as Howling Wilderness and Kidnapped portrays it.

"The Road" is pitch black. HW and K are just slightly overcast summer days by comparison!

T2K mostly certainly could have been MUCH bleaker than it is. Could be a world similar to Post Nuke http://www.postnukecomic.com/comic_p...issue=1&page=0

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

T2K mostly certainly could have been MUCH bleaker than it is. Could be a world similar to Post Nuke http://www.postnukecomic.com/comic_p...issue=1&page=0

Such a pity that the author never came back from his hiatus. I used to get so excited waiting for each new page. Oh well.

[HorseSoldier]

Only typos I saw were that picture 6 is captioned as soldiers from 1st Troop, which should be 1st Squadron, I assume. The 2004 organization shows a C Squadron that would be C Company (as a tank pure unit) or C Troop under US usage. Not sure if the Germanification of the plays a role in the nomenclature by that point.

On the Etranger 2300AD group, "Panzerkavellerie Regiment" passed muster among German members as an acceptable German rendering of the American term for 11th and 107th ACR and portions of 1st Cav Div which remained on the books with the German military in the 24th century, with those units being pretty tradition-bound and flashy components of the Bavarian military before reunification.

Thanks. My main aim for the reasoning behind the non-evacuation was to show some of the possible reasons for not evacuating.

I think the US units left behind in Germany and Poland are probably a mix of it being logistically unfeasible to get back (obvious for the real outliers like 8th ID and 2nd MarDiv, but likely a big issue for many others) and units that were war weary enough and settled in enough in their cantonments that they preferred their present circumstances to the unknown. Part of it may be German and other non-American recruits making their sentiments felt, but I suspect a bunch of it is American veterans who by 2000 have German wives and other roots in their cantonment areas and more loyalty to their immediate unit than any higher headquarters after the world fell apart.

Very good work - really brings the regiment to life. However I dont agree with the 3rd ACR staying in Germany because it didnt want to go home and fight CivGov units - for one with the Russians and Mexicans still occupying US territory there are lots of foreign enemies for them to fight still.

I think it was more that they didnt agree with the decision to leave a US ally in the lurch - i.e. the Germans and British troops who were still fighting the Soviets - and also the fact that there were US troops still cut off in Poland.

American units mutinying against higher headquarters and defecting to foreign armies because they were motivated and eager to keep bashing on the Russians seems improbable to me. First, I don't think anyone by 2000 is especially eager for action -- pretty much everyone on the ground in Europe at that point is very much an old soldier and natural selection will have culled the hell out of anyone who was especially eager to rush into battle. The veterans by 2000 will be, or have become, pragmatists and realists. Second, I'd think any units that were really eager scrappers by that point, if any existed, would also tend to be loyal to higher HQs.

[Olefin]

Oh I agree with you Horse Soldier - I am not saying they are eager beavers ready to get out there and kick Ivan's butt. But I can see men who have fought for years and dont want any part of being seen as running away while the war is still officially on staying instead of going on the Bug Out Fleet.

Especially those with close ties to German or British units who see leaving as selling out their allies and dont want to leave until its really over. And the Russians still having troops on the ground in Germany itself is hardly saying we won, lets go home.

Plus there is a strong feeling in the US military that we dont leave buddies behind - and there are a lot of US troops still cut off in Poland that I can see people rankling a lot at the decision to write them off. Possibly to the point that they tell their higher ups to go to hell, we arent going anywhere till everyone goes home and staying.

That could be the reason so many HQ troops stayed - i.e. they wont leave without the Marines, the 8th and everyone else still on enemy territory but still very much alive and intact as units.

Actually thats one group that for sure would have stayed - there is no way any Marines still on German, Norwegian or UK soil would have gone home with the 2nd still cut off in Poland. Marines do not abandon their buddies - ever.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Please, spelling is never my strongest point.

Can you PM me your email address, so I can send you my markups?

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The 2004 organization shows a C Squadron that would be C Company (as a tank pure unit) or C Troop under US usage.

Question for the cavalry troopers and TO&E nuts here. I was aware that the troops of the regiment would be lettered consecutively, were the Tank companies and artillery batteries included? That is, I'm sure 1st Squadron had A, B, C Troops, are the tanks D Company, and the artillery E? I'm speaking more to the prewar and wartime organizations, not necessarily the German one.

One of my wargaming friends commanded an artillery battery in the 107th ACR in the '70s, he said that his battery had a Field Artillery regimental affiliation (i.e. 3-92 FA), so they would have been outside the 3rd's numbering/lettering. FWIW, that was when there was only one battery for the whole regiment, IIRC.

[HorseSoldier]

Question for the cavalry troopers and TO&E nuts here. I was aware that the troops of the regiment would be lettered consecutively, were the Tank companies and artillery batteries included? That is, I'm sure 1st Squadron had A, B, C Troops, are the tanks D Company, and the artillery E? I'm speaking more to the prewar and wartime organizations, not necessarily the German one.

I believe under the Reagan-era derived MTOEs GDW used for USAVG the artillery batteries were under a separate battalion headquarters and numbered internally to it, outside the troop lettering system. The tank companies were organic squadron assets and lettered sequentially as the fourth troop/company in each squadron.

Wiki seems to indicate the same practice in effect with the current US Army reduction of armored cavalry regiments, including 3rd, to bad jokes. (As a cavalry scout I can only hope there will be some sort of divine retribution visited in this life or the next on the decision makers who committed the mortal sin of transforming the ACRs into Stryker infantry brigades and the NTC OPFOR. Just disgraceful.)

One of my wargaming friends commanded an artillery battery in the 107th ACR in the '70s, he said that his battery had a Field Artillery regimental affiliation (i.e. 3-92 FA), so they would have been outside the 3rd's numbering/lettering. FWIW, that was when there was only one battery for the whole regiment, IIRC.

May also relate to how the National Guard was organizing things in that unit at that specific time, especially if the unit was organized across state lines and such.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Such a pity that the author never came back from his hiatus. I used to get so excited waiting for each new page. Oh well.

He posted an update on his status just a few weeks ago.

[Olefin]

by the way Legbreaker I totally agree with you on "The Road" - thats about as pitch black as it gets

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Can you PM me your email address, so I can send you my markups?

Question for the cavalry troopers and TO&E nuts here. I was aware that the troops of the regiment would be lettered consecutively, were the Tank companies and artillery batteries included? That is, I'm sure 1st Squadron had A, B, C Troops, are the tanks D Company, and the artillery E? I'm speaking more to the prewar and wartime organizations, not necessarily the German one.

One of my wargaming friends commanded an artillery battery in the 107th ACR in the '70s, he said that his battery had a Field Artillery regimental affiliation (i.e. 3-92 FA), so they would have been outside the 3rd's numbering/lettering. FWIW, that was when there was only one battery for the whole regiment, IIRC.

For the Time Frame of Twilight, the break down would be

First Squadron
A, B, and C Troops= these are the cavalry troops
D Company= this is the tank company
How Battery, 1st Squadron=this would be the squadrons attached artillery battery

Second Squadron
E, F, G troops
H Company
How Battery, 2nd Squadron

Third Squadron
I, K, L troops
M Company
How Battery, 3rd Squadron

Fourth Squadron
N, O, P= scout helicopter troops
Q, R = attack helicopter troops

In the USAREUR regiments (2nd and 11th), the squadron How Batteries were consolidated at the regimental level, this became How-2nd ACR, the state side units, for much of the Cold War period, kept the batteries at the squadron level, although I've heard that the 3ACR adopted USAREUR practice.

Now enters the National Guard.

They march to the beat of a different rock band!

Regimental numbers are allocated to the state, this is a carry over from World War II. The states are not required to man all of their allocated bloc of numbers, but many states have adopted the practise of honoring previous units. This would most likely be what happened with the 107th ACR.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

For the Time Frame of Twilight, the break down would be

First Squadron
A, B, and C Troops= these are the cavalry troops
D Company= this is the tank company
How Battery, 1st Squadron=this would be the squadrons attached artillery battery

Second Squadron
E, F, G troops
H Company
How Battery, 2nd Squadron

Third Squadron
I, K, L troops
M Company
How Battery, 3rd Squadron

Fourth Squadron
N, O, P= scout helicopter troops
Q, R = attack helicopter troops

In the USAREUR regiments (2nd and 11th), the squadron How Batteries were consolidated at the regimental level, this became How-2nd ACR, the state side units, for much of the Cold War period, kept the batteries at the squadron level, although I've heard that the 3ACR adopted USAREUR practice.

The 3rd, at least when I was there a decade ago, How Bats was assigned at the squadron level, and when we went to the sandbox, they rolled with the squadron they was assigned to.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Olefin

by the way Legbreaker I totally agree with you on "The Road" - thats about as pitch black as it gets

Nothing gets as pitch-black as Threads.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

In the USAREUR regiments (2nd and 11th), the squadron How Batteries were consolidated at the regimental level, this became How-2nd ACR, the state side units, for much of the Cold War period, kept the batteries at the squadron level, although I've heard that the 3ACR adopted USAREUR practice.

Now enters the National Guard.

They march to the beat of a different rock band!

This was the '70s, after all.

Regimental numbers are allocated to the state, this is a carry over from World War II. The states are not required to man all of their allocated bloc of numbers, but many states have adopted the practise of honoring previous units. This would most likely be what happened with the 107th ACR.

I figured it was more an issue of the Field Artillery considering it one of their own.
I don't think it was a historic-to-Ohio number, either, as the WW1-WW2 era Ohio FA regiments were in the 130's. Somewhere, I have files on as many Ohio NG units as I could find (long, boring nights manning the phones at the Columbus library's history desk).

Anyway, you answered my question.

[James Langham2]

A few extra bits added and minor edits to clarify/expand.