Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[schnickelfritz]

I believe it can be summed up pretty close to this:
1) Tanks-AFV's and Large Caliber Cuns in municipal/private hands will be present but rare.

2) Ammo will be improvised and/or limited in most cases. Armament may be improvised as well.

3) Military transport vehicles outside of larger and/or ferderal formations will not be very common and most likely not in very good running condition due to age and lack of spares.

4) Large weapons/Tanks/AFV's will mostly exist as threats and for worst case scenarios.

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Does that make sense?

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[HorseSoldier]

5) Gun trucks built primarily from commercial vehicles (dump trucks the most common and easiest to convert) will be the most common big armored vehicles in most areas.

Sounds like a plan in places where you have a good supply of machine guns and other automatic weapons -- and dump trucks, since I'd think most places would have a lot of non-military use for functional dump trucks. On the plus side with a dump truck, however, you could probably up armor the cab and then make everything in the cargo bed removable -- some brackets to hold a frame keeping a double stack of sandbags in place on the sides, weld on some weapons mounting points, and if your need for a dump truck is greater than your need for a gun truck, you just pull all that stuff and send it to the job site or whatever.

[Legbreaker]

How about a flat bed or container carrier - build a removable "bunker" using a shipping container as the base and lift it onto the back of the truck when it's needed. When it's not mobile it could be used as a pillbox.

Would have to armour up the cab a bit, but if done right, the armour could stay in place even when the fighting unit wasn't loaded.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Apache6

(SNIP)

But for a fun adventure, three CONUS sites that have lots of interesting vehicles, maintenance faciliities and at least pre-war a wide range of experienced staff are.

The Patton mueseum at Fort Knox, Ky. Had/s a extensive collection of AFVs from WWI on. Including US, allied, friendly and captured vehicles. Very extensive maintenance facilities at the Mueseum, not counting those aboard the rest of the base.

There was an extensive US Army armor testing facility at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Aberdeen MD, which has A LOT of one off prototypes, 'acquired' WARPAC kit and allied kit, as well as several obsolete pieces of kit. Very importantly they had a HUGE knowledge base of scientists, engineers and machinists that good fabricate just about anything.

(SNIP)

Again, I don't believe that in T2K armor would be common, but there are 'possibilities' to work in some interesting kit.

Sad to say, Aberdeen's field of armor is in truly sad shape and from what I saw of the display pieces back in the 90s, unrestorable without massive effort and resources. The knowledge base, however....

[Legbreaker]

Provided those people are still there in 1997, 98, etc...
Younger ones may have been drafted, older people died of radiation, starvation, and so on. And that's not to mention those who may simply have moved away to supposedly safer locations less likely to attract a nuke.

[Targan]

The questions in my last two posts still haven't been answered. I remain keen for responses to those queries.

[bobcat]

well as for the availability of the knowledge. reprints of these manuals are quite common and since around '95 have been available to download for free which is how i got my copy. however with the EMP's knocking out large numbers of computer systems and power fluctuations it may not be accessible for everyone everywhere.

that said with the soviets pushing onto american soil long before the nukes hit more and more people are going to be grabbing these and myriad other field manuals just like they did for Y2K, and every other "dooms day" scenario. so assuming most good machine shops have the know how is not overly stretching credulity. granted this mainly applies to the older tanks and AFV's its not like i can go down to jim's car repair and expect him to fix up a Bradley fighting vehicle but a ferret armored car or an old sherman is an entirely different matter and is actually feasible given the scenario(including the desperate "make it work then worry about the doctrine later" attitude anyone who's still alive in 2000 would have.)

[Legbreaker]

I'm yet to be convinced the internet is a viable option for gathering information in the T2K timeline. I personally didn't even bother with dialup until about 1999 - just didn't see much point in "this new fangled thing!"
How many other people felt the same way I wonder? How many who did have reliable net access could see the potential value in downloading manuals?

Y2K may have seen a run on manuals, and T2K may be seen in a similar way, however how many of those manuals were about survival, farming and the like, and how many were mechanical manuals for old, obsolete and somewhat rare ex-military vehicles?

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then? We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I saw allot more field and tech manuals in my local surplus place and collectors of such than on the internet of the time. One friend of mine had a virtual library of such books, with the various history books and such. He was a big time miniatures war-gamer of WW2 and Vietnam/Modern (as was I) Heck even the National guard armory had some old manuals when they cleaned it out in around 2000.

So combined with the aspect of portable generators, skilled and semi skilled personnel, collectors inventories, and military leadership. I would imagine with the american mindset they would get the old surplus stuff up and running to active but limited duty.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Edit: Also, just how much was even available online back then? We're used to almost instant gratification of our desires for information today, but it was a very different situation 16 years ago!

My first BBS download, of the Anarchists Cookbook, was in October of 1984. (Not a typo) The US Army's Ranger Handbook was my second. I worked in my High school's print shop so I had bound paper copies the next day.

It certainly was not instant at 0.3kbs but all kinds of stuff was available.

As far as the internet, it was used frequently by college students here as early at 1991 and it was my career by 1994.

If you want to look at when information exploded onto the internet it was when PDFs became readily available and that was around 1993.

Even pre PDF I was part of an effort which included converting a boat load of vehicular technical documents into an electronic format for Firestone's Service centers. This was an attempt to create one of the first intranets in 1990.

[WallShadow]

This thread gave me a mental picture of Bobcat, Dragoon, and Olefin standing around the VFW memorial M4 Sherman in the town square comparing notes and ideas on how to resuscitate her, while Legbreaker and Targan are kibitzing within earshot on how impossible it's going to be.

Me? I'm going to add my 2 cents of constructive criticism and be mentally searching my brain for any sources of info, parts, and materiel needed to fix her up. And, being a military history geek, that would include any Technical Manuals I personally own or know of in any of the local used bookstores or military surplus stores.

[Legbreaker]

Nobody is saying it's impossible, just implausible.

Sure, there are resources out there - technicians, tools, raw materials, power, fuel, manuals, technical drawings and specifications, and all the other bits and pieces needed such as food, and labour which can be spared from the fields. The problem is it's likely to be a very rare occurrence that all the necessary factors are all going to be in the one place at the same time when they're actually needed.

Crack that rather major problem and there's no practical reason why a community can't have a fleet of AFVs at it's disposal.

[WallShadow]

Then again, you have to weigh the benefits of neighbors' reactions: "They got a TANK running! Let's not mess with them." or "...let's be friends with them in case we need to borrow it some day." or "maybe they can help us fix some of our machinery for trade goods", or "maybe they can help us beat up the evil overlord threatening us from the town down the road", balanced against the problems of "They got a tank running. Let's go steal it/fight them for it/destroy it so they can't use it against us/capture or kill their technicians."

Heck, even being seen _working_ on a (actually hopeless) tank could provoke any of the above reactions--from offers of mutual support agreements to triggering pre-emptive strikes on the soon-to-be well-armored community. As well as internal strife about allocation of the community's resources (now _where_ did that idea come from? ). And is the work on the Sherman for real, or is the town just running a big bluff? This can be a nice adventure-seed producer!

[Olefin]

I keep hearing that tanks and AFV's in the hands of the militia in the US would be implausible? Hmm you mean implausible like ...

A successful Soviet invasion of Alaska before nuclear war broke out?

Mexico conquering almost all of Texas, half of CA, almost all of AZ and NM and then somehow holding onto most of it post war?

The Italians, Greeks, Spanish, and Portuguese all turning their backs on their NATO obligations and in the case of the Italians and Greeks declaring war on NATO and actually invading fellow NATO countries in support of the Soviets?

The Belgians, the majority of whom are related directly to the Dutch, going along without any concern with an armed invasion and occupation of the Netherlands and not one single unit mutinies against the order?

MilGov somehow allowing the Oklahoma refineries and oil wells to be lost at the end of 2001 when it probably represents 90% of their available oil?

Not one single WWII prop plane, let alone light attack jet, being in the hands of MilGov to use to shoot down the ultralights and dirigibles of New America when they had enough aviation gas to maintain very occasional air contact with New England?

The US military,including the USMC who has never abandoned its people for any reason, going home and writing off several intact (by year 2000 standards) divisions, including an USMC division, cut off behind enemy lines while the same enemy is beginning to collapse and thus make it possible those men can be retrieved?

etc..

Guys you have to keep in mind that the making of the implausible into "reality" is the heart and soul of the Twilight 2000 canon. Thus given all the above implausibilities that we accept freely as part of the canon of the game, I dont see the existence and operation of tanks and AFV's by municipalities and milita groups in the US as being implausible in any way.

If you can accept those implausibilities, the city of Des Moines, Iowa having two old Sherman tanks and a Ferret as part of its militia is pretty easy to swallow.

And not trying in any way to get anything started about the canon of the game or anything else. Just trying to show how we accept multiple implausibilities every day as part of the canon.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And not trying in any way to get anything started about the canon of the game or anything else. Just trying to show how we accept multiple implausibilities every day as part of the canon.

Not to mention the penchant for the PCs to run into "the last" or "the only" of just about everything. By the gaming logic even if there were only one Sherman in all of the United States odds are the PCs would find it

[simonmark6]

That's a fair point. Right, I'm off to write up the PC encounter with the last Sherman tank in the US with its hover-motors and laser guns.

[Olefin]

Agree with you there Kato - between Reset, the Madonna, the last working steam locomotive in Poland,etc.. it got to be repetitive

thats one reason my GM changed The Last Submarine to have more than one surviving sub and the purpose of the adventure was to get the other survivors back into operation - it was too much of the same in his mind

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

That's a fair point. Right, I'm off to write up the PC encounter with the last Sherman tank in the US with its hover-motors and laser guns.

Dont forget its equipped with ablative armor as well.

lol

[Legbreaker]

"National" implausibility, such as Greece leaving Nato is a totally separate issue to the "practical" implausibility of masses of obsolete AFVs just laying about in working order.

We can prove how difficult it is to get old AFVs up and running. We can't prove one way or the other the other issues Olefin referred to as somehow the same.
It's like comparing a battleship to a gold mine - both important in their way, but that's about where it ends.

Just because there's Soviets in Alaska and Texas does not mean old AFVs are under every stone!

[Olefin]

No one has said there would be AFV's under every stone - the game's balance does not dissolve if there are municipalities, militias and Home Guard units spread around the US with working older tanks, AFV's and other military vehicles.

Any more so than the Grenada module's balance was dissolved by the players finding and using the restored M113 APC on the island or that the Texas module would be unbalanced if the characters managed to capture a Mexican or Soviet armored vehicle.

Considering most Twilight 2000 games are so out of balance that playing them straight is an exercise in learning how to roll up lots of new characters (try playing Kidnapped with a group of 4-6 characters and surviving it or better yet trying to take on the pirates in Grenada who are walking around like military Christmas trees draped in ammo and grenades with a party armed as the game describes it) I hardly see a few hundred vehicles at the absolute most, most of which would be stationary most of the time just to conserve fuel, spread across the entire continental US as throwing it out of balance.

The US and Australia are very different as to what people have in their possession and what is available for restoration - heck just in the Detroit area alone I have heard of three working US tanks, a German SPG from WWII, and over half a dozen working howitzers and anti-tank guns, all in the hands of private collectors, and all with live barrels and breech blocks. There is a warbird museum near my hometime that has over a dozen flyable WWIi fighters and attack aircraft that could be armed very easily.

And as for machine shops - all they would need is drawings and they can make barrels, shells, you name it - you need qualified machinists and power and materials and it can be done - and there is no way that every qualified machinist in the US has been killed.

Can you make stuff in huge abundance - no of course not - but enough can be made for a few vehicles - and no town, unless it has a military base near it, a museum, a large size vehicle collection or a military production facility like Lima or York does, will have more than a few old AFV's and tanks.

And if you look at the specs of lots of those vehicles on Paul's page I dont see M3 Stuarts and M47 Chaffees and other such old vehicles as making things much different in the US than previously depicted.

[rcaf_777]

Just a few thoughts

There is a huge collection of military maunals in Tooel Utah - http://www.armyjeeps.net/Tomlin/Toml...ollection.htm- scroll all the way to the bottom

from the site "This is 1,500 linear feet of manuals on 50 plus shelves, weight about 20 Tons. There are 30,000 plus, one each documents. The Library includes very comprehensive collections of TM's, FM's, TB's, SNL's, TB Ord's, FSMWO's, Etc."

So I think it quite possible to PC to find FM or TM in alot places in US.
also I think that many guard units might have nessary techs already

State Guard: What did you in the Army/Marines
Tech: I was a tank mechainc from 68-72
State Guard: Great we job for your welcome broad Sgt Major
Tech: When I left I was only a Sgt
State Guard: Well your a Sgt Major now, Next

Lastly I don't it too much of stretch for the PC to find an old AFV/APC in Texas/CA/NM. The many could have hidden away or it by passed cause nobody knew what do with it or did want it headache of trying to figure how they were going to maintain it fuel ect.

[Olefin]

In our adventures in the US when we got home we found the M113 APC in Grenada and put it to good use, a Stuart tank we took off some marauders in PA (we took down two guards and two mechanics silently to get it, then set off one heck of a firefight getting it out of town - just try starting an old Stuart tank silently), busted out of the MP brigades perimeter when they went CivGov using a M113 to do it (that then ran out of fuel a few hours later and we didnt have a still with us) and found an old White Scout Car complete with MG with its dying owner nearby after his militia group got wiped out by New American forces in Arkansas.

Of those vehicles two were canon and two were added by our GM.

And finding an old tank/AFV in a barn and having to put it back into shape is a great adventure that can involve all your skills and possibly do it all without having to fire a gun in the process for those who like problem solving, salvaging and bartering kinds of encounters.

[Apache6]

While this thread has largely been about the ability to resurrect old AFVs the original question was what is the ability of the "Home Guard and Militia units" to sustain themselfs and produce munitions. For this I'm discussion I'm mostly looking at US locations.

- I think before TDM, the military would have ramped up production and orders for munitions. With the break down of the infastructure associated with nuclear strikes it is not illogical that some large amounts of munitions were lost/cached/misplaced/in container lots of nuked cities (where they may have or may not have exploded). (Possible good adventure hook: A vet blinded in exchange tells you that X containers of first rate modern munitions intended for Europe was in the harbor at Y port when it was nuked. He thinks its still there and incredibly valuable. If its there the area around it may be very HOT.

- I think most decent colleges, and certainly all agricultural or mining schools, chemistry departments have the foundational knowledge to make base components for munitions. Black powder is fairly easy, smokeless powder and explosive components more challenging. Primary explosives for primers and initiators more challenging still. But the information is available now, it would have likely been more readily availalbe as the nation moved to war footing.

Small Arms:
- Reloading of revolvers, shotguns and some rifles (30-30 for example) with black powder is very doable. Most automatic/semi auto firearms will not reliably work with black powder.

- Reloading of modern rounds, if smokeless powder is available, is easy, and thousands of American hobbiest do it.

- Making smokeless powders and primers is more challenging. I'd expect that getting plants into production would be a major drive for organized groups. Once built they would produce a very valuable trading item. The technology is not that difficult, but it does assume a level of security and trade.

- In many, if not all of the modern COIN fights, over last 100 years ammunition has been smuggled into the Area of Operation. I've run a one-of campaign where PCs were tasked as security for a dozen semi trucks carrying tens of thousands of rounds of small arms ammo from Knoxville through the howling wilderness to a US "battle group" that was preparing to retake New Orleans. Lots of roleplaying opportunities in acquiring, supplying, trading for ammo.

- Making basic shotguns or bolt/lever action rifles can be done in just about any machine shop. I cannot see this being a big requirement as there are many firearms in US.

- There are also a surprisingly large number of small gun manufacturers in US, I'd expect all of them could turn out at least replica M-1 garands or M-3 grease guns, if not browning M1919A4s chambered for 7.62mm NATO. Securing, reestablishing, supplying or destroying a small factory could be the objective of a series of games.

- Several of the 'NPC' groups that I posted earlier had some of the NPCs armed with "Sten guns." I use that as a "generic" name for a simple home made SMG. A open bolt, blowback SMG is actually suprisingly easy to make. I think this is very likely to be seen. During WWII, the Soviets manufactured SMGs inside beseiged Lenningrad, the barrels were taken from rifles and cut in half to make 2 SMG barrels.

- belt feed machine guns are more challenging to manufacture and require close tolerences for both the guns and ammo. A electric powered, hopper feed gatling gun might be easier for many machine shops?

- Further up this thread I discussed manufacture of explosive munitions. Again, I think a city police bomb squad or a retired... Military EOD tech would be invaluable to that effort. As would chemical engineers, both of these are not common, but would be found in any major metro area.

[Olefin]

"- belt feed machine guns are more challenging to manufacture and require close tolerences for both the guns and ammo. A electric powered, hopper feed gatling gun might be easier for many machine shops?"

How about a good old fashioned hand cranked Gatling Gun? They were very effective guns right thru the Spanish American War - and they should be a lot easier to manufacture

[Apache6]

Olefin: Yes, hand cranked gatling guns would be very doable.

I used the electric powered one since, 1) I think in 1999-2000, you'd likely see a electric motor added, hooked up to a car battery. 2) I think it's got more post apoc flavor than a straight hand cranked gun.

Back in the day: My PC designed and had build a 76mm "compressed air" powered mortar that lobbed either molotov cocktails or explosive shells. It had a fairly low signature. I liked it, even though it was short range.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

The questions in my last two posts still haven't been answered. I remain keen for responses to those queries.

So do I, four days after they were asked.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Apache6

Olefin: Yes, hand cranked gatling guns would be very doable.

I used the electric powered one since, 1) I think in 1999-2000, you'd likely see a electric motor added, hooked up to a car battery. 2) I think it's got more post apoc flavor than a straight hand cranked gun.

Back in the day: My PC designed and had build a 76mm "compressed air" powered mortar that lobbed either molotov cocktails or explosive shells. It had a fairly low signature. I liked it, even though it was short range.

Thats a great idea - sounds like something that Krakow would have turned out for sure.

[Webstral]

Though I ought not to, I’ll weigh in on the subject.

I’ll repeat what someone wrote to me regarding my idea for having three BTR-80 under the command of the Shogun in Nevada: if you want to have it in your campaign, just do it. I’ll go further by saying that everyone has different ideas of what remains functional by 2001. If it’s important for you to have fairly widespread tanks and AFV in your Twilight: 2000 campaign, then you’ll find the justification. If it’s not important, you’ll find the justification.

All that said, all of the equipment under discussion is going to be of great interest to every surviving group. It will not take long before one government or another takes possession of working machine shops capable of modifying or making AFV and the equipment associated with them.

I think a quick review of the things needed for a machine shop capable of restoring non-functional tanks to working condition is in order. We all know all this stuff, but sometimes it’s useful to have a recap of the existing knowledge.

1) The machines. A machine shop needs the machines. Ideally, it will be able to make its own replacement machines. However, machine tools are less common than the machines themselves. All machine shops are not created equal. The machines for sheet metal and civilian automotive are not suited for all AFV functions. Machines for maintaining tractor trailers might be necessary for some tanks. This isn’t my field of expertise.
a. In 1997, the nation’s machine shops might be working to capacity. This is favorable for the idea of finding the right machines and people for the job of restoring old tanks to working order.
2) The skilled work force. The machine shop needs people to run the machines. People are fragile. Training a new worker to replace someone dead from starvation, violence, disease, suicide, etc. takes time. Some people cannot be replaced in the time permitting between NOV 97 and [circa] APR 01. Overall, the quality of the nation’s machinist workforce will decline dramatically because some of the dead people will be the most seasoned machinists.
3) Electricity. Without electricity to run the machines, they’re more useful as cover in CQB than anything else.
4) Proper materials. The best machinists in the world can’t do much without the right materials to work with. When one considers all of the parts that go into an old school tank like the M4 Sherman, there is a tremendous supply network stretching across the country and even across the world. The old economics driving mass production will be gone by APR 01, so to some degree local fabrication will pick up the slack. But all parts get made from raw materials. A break anywhere in the supply chain from the ground (or whatever source the shop is supposed to be using) to the finished product represents a huge obstacle.
Of course, machinists can be very imaginative. Substitutes might be found for many items. However, the substitutes, even if they work, bring their own drawbacks. Unfortunately, workable substitutes either won’t exist or won’t be found for a huge array of materials and parts.
5) Food and protection. A machine shop without a workforce fed enough to keep working isn’t worth much. A machine shop without adequate protection for the workers isn’t worth much.

By the time we meet all of the requirements for work, far fewer machine shops are going to be in a position to support bringing tanks back to life than we might imagine. Let’s remember, too, that ammunition production requires chemical stocks. Large caliber ammunition production is much more demanding than small arms ammunition production.

As everyone here knows, I’m of the school that the US basically stabilizes by Spring 2001. The nadir of food production and availability would have been in 1999-2000, provided one tosses out that deus ex machina of a drought. Of course, we have seen from real life that the US is quite subject to vagaries of the weather. Let’s hope there’s more rain in 2013 than there was in 2012. However, in most locations around the country the overwhelming majority of people will be involved in growing food, husbanding animals for food, hunting for food, or gathering wild foods. The workforce left over for all other tasks will be less than half the half the available manpower—sometimes much less than half. Demands on this workforce will include manual labor, medical functions, security, administration, and manufacturing to meet local needs. When the chief machinist tells the cantonment leadership that putting the main gun of the tank back into working order will require 400 man hours, plus another 300 to get the assembly line for one type of large caliber ammunition ready for production and another 100 per week to produce 15-20 rounds, the leadership may say forget it. Maintenance of small arms might prove more immediate.

Big cantonments like Colorado might have the ingredients for putting old tanks and AFV back in working order. Smaller cantonments just might not have all the ingredients needed and the willingness to place priority on getting those ingredients working towards the goal of restoring old tanks and other AFV to working order. So however many tanks and AFV there may be in working condition in NOV 97 across the US, the number of cantonments that have put them into working order will be very, very small. This doesn’t mean that they can’t have been dug in and armed. A working MG inside a tank turret that can be turned by a hand crank or electricity run through a wire from outside the vehicle would be both a formidable obstacle and a real morale boost for the defenders. But a Sherman capable of acting like a Sherman tank would be pretty rare in 2001 for my money.

[bobcat]

also in addition to fixing existing armor i earlier mentions improvised armored vehicles. these are not mere gun trucks however they aren't quite main battle tanks.

here is one from Syria


here is one from a mexican drug cartel


here is one from chechnya


and one from cuba


and lastly one from libia



remember these were created under the same kinds of conditions that T2K survivors would have faced. so it is neither implausible nor impossible.