OT Black Powder Weapons

[mikeo80]

I know this is a very well read and very well armed group.

Have any of you considered adding a black powder weapon to your personal "stash"?

If so, what kind?

Right now I am thinking about a .36 Navy Colt. Thoughts? Comments?

I am also looking at a 1861 Springfield Rifle. (Very far off in future right now)

I look at the Colt as a good back up if SHTF. Good size caliber, but something I can handle. It should stop most bad guys. Caps/balls/blackpowder/pyrodex are available right now. Cost is not too crazy. Could be used for hunting up to white tail deer. (I know I would have to get close. )

Looking forward to your observations.

My $0.02

Mike

[Grimace]

I think if I were to ever pick up a black powder weapon, I'd probably go with a flintlock pistol, maybe even a flintlock rifled musket. Why flintlock? So if the SHTF, then I don't have to worry about manufacturing firing caps for a cap & ball weapon. Finding flint is a heck of a lot easier than finding the materials to make more caps.

Still, I think the .36 Navy Colt is a good idea. It's got some stopping power, provides multiple shots before needing to be reloaded, and is dependable.

[bobcat]

adding? i'll have you know that i already have a kentucky long rifle in my house
although i wouldn't mind a few more, and the parts to keep them well maintained in the worst of situations. a black powder cannon would be kinda cool too even though it would be expensive to maintain it would make for an awesome fourth of july celebration.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Grimace

I think if I were to ever pick up a black powder weapon, I'd probably go with a flintlock pistol, maybe even a flintlock rifled musket. Why flintlock? So if the SHTF, then I don't have to worry about manufacturing firing caps for a cap & ball weapon. Finding flint is a heck of a lot easier than finding the materials to make more caps.

Still, I think the .36 Navy Colt is a good idea. It's got some stopping power, provides multiple shots before needing to be reloaded, and is dependable.

I like the flintlock for the same reason. Hawkins .54 would be the first choice. Now the other BP I would consider and have thought of would be rifles and pistols in .44-40 and .45-70. The only thing that makes these a problem long term is primers, stocking a couple cases of them would give more than you probably could use though. Don't forget the bullet molds and pot to melt the lead among other items used to reload.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

I like the flintlock for the same reason. Hawkins .54 would be the first choice. Now the other BP I would consider and have thought of would be rifles and pistols in .44-40 and .45-70. The only thing that makes these a problem long term is primers, stocking a couple cases of them would give more than you probably could use though. Don't forget the bullet molds and pot to melt the lead among other items used to reload.

I was just reading about the Hawkins Rifle...Awesome weapon.

Now I am in a quandry. I was thinking about a Springfield 1861 as a BP rifle, Now I am looking at the Hawkins. I like the brute force method of the round ball. But I am also interested in the Minie. Both rounds are excellent game getters, man stoppers, and otherwise a good addition to the standard breechloaders that I have.....

My $0.02

Mike

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by bobcat

adding? i'll have you know that i already have a kentucky long rifle in my house
although i wouldn't mind a few more, and the parts to keep them well maintained in the worst of situations. a black powder cannon would be kinda cool too even though it would be expensive to maintain it would make for an awesome fourth of july celebration.

Is this what you mean??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbhSAyjeA74


My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

Well, another good choice would be the recent release by Pietta of the Cavalry Model LeMat Revolver in .44-caliber/20 gauge, gives you 9 rounds and a load of buck or a slug. Retail price last time I checked was $825.00

Kirst & Strite also released a carbine version of the LaMat with a 23-inch barrel, but this one is a tad on the expensive side; it retails at $6,000.00

Another good choice is the Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading Fowler, this is a 20-gauge flintlock and fairly cheap at $1,000.00

You might also consider the Davide Perersoli Howdah. A howday is a double-barrel pistol in 20-gauge (you can fire the Hornady .570 ball), this was offered in the Cabela catalog last year and retailed for $600.00

Some other good chocies are the recent releases of the .45LC Walker Dragoon conversion ($425.00); the .45LC 1860 Army ($525.00); and finally the .45LC 1875 Remington Army ($629.00).

All of these are reproductions, but I've been hearing good reviews on all of them....and you really have to try the LeMat!!!!

[headquarters]

I think in game terms about this and any real life consideration hat could be construed from my musings are purely coincidental

Although having something for all cicumstances is a good notion, I believe its better to have 3 guns with 10 000 rounds than 10 guns with 3 000 round. But having something if there are no rounds anymore is a good idea. A solid crossbow come to mind. A powerful slingshot for smallgame and birds too.

I believe BP guns would make a comeback to some extent. For one - making ammo can be done with a lot less resources than modern centerfire arms.

I have always been eyeing these:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernFlint.php

but I live in a place where this would mean jumping hoops to such an extent that I probably could make one myself just as easily - starting with prospecting for a mine for iron ore..

Flintlocks have the advantages of few moving parts and no need for caps/primers which helps a little. That said, the firing caps fro percussion guns was invented around 1800 and produced from 1810. by 1840 it qas pretty common in military and civillian use.I guess caps can be a cottage industry as well as balls and powder ( I mean lead balls- - we are talking armament ccottage industry not the other type of cottage industry..those cottages have red lanterns marking them out).

BP cartridge guns might also be an option. BP doesnt wear the brass as bad if loaded moderately anyways, and if everything is maintained well etc etc. If someone was making fulminate caps and the brass was already available you could get a lot of use from a BP cartridge gun as well when the smokeless and nitrated modern stuff ran out. Many BP revolvers have extra cylinders available that allow you to change from a say .45 colt cartridge to a .44 cap n ball setup.

Going antique is definently an option - shooters can be had although the risk of getting a bomb instead of a gun is definently there An antique has other benfits as well, to do with the legal sides of things should guns for some reason be considered an offense by the local T2K warlord / agency in control of the area..

What BP gun to choose is done by defining POU - philosophy of use. Rifles, muskets,fowlers and musketoons/carbines are probably easier to hit something with than pistols. On the other hand carrying a pistol around is alot easier and its more handy in many situations.

I guess historical evidence say something about what works. I understand the typical trapper/frontiersman usually had some sort of rifled musket or similar. They could be used to hunt and for war. As for revolvers or pistols the wars from 16th century up until around 1885 give some indication as to what were the most functional arms.

I own two BP revolvers, a LeMat in. 44 and a Remington 158 also .44. Both Pietta replicas. Good quality imho. The LeMat was bought due to an infatuation wuith the design etc. The Remingtom because my reading suggested it was the better of the available cap and ball revolvers in terms of practical use in combat etc. Today I guess the Spencer& Rogers in .44 or the 1858 Starr would be my prime choices. Antique wise a Whitney .36 seems to be the pros choice.The Colts are prolific though, both replica and antiqus so thats a big plus for that option..

Buying a bullet mould is probably a good investment. Using an old can and some tire weights on a regular wood fire you can make bullets.

All of the above just my 2 cents - it is probably only worth 1 cent

[Olefin]

One way you could introduce more black powder guns into the game would be to have a town where a mfg of such guns is located be found by the players. It could be anything from a small mom and pop operation (think how the guns were made back in the 1700's where craftsmen basically made them one at a time) to a small factory turning out several dozen at a time. If you combine it with a mfg of black powder as well in the area you would have a situation where, at least locally, they go from rare to relatively common.

And the older designs, especially the Kentucky rifle, would be very good ones indeed for use by players in a situation where its either those guns or nothing - i.e. perhaps in a situation where they escaped from imprisonment and dont have anything on them other than a knife.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Well, another good choice would be the recent release by Pietta of the Cavalry Model LeMat Revolver in .44-caliber/20 gauge, gives you 9 rounds and a load of buck or a slug. Retail price last time I checked was $825.00

If they offered this in .357 I'd be all over it. How do they get around the legal issue of LeMat reproductions being classified as short-barreled shotguns, though?

- C.

[Apache6]

In support of 'cowboy action shooting' I've seen lever action rifles reloaded with black powder. Weapons will function. Does require primers.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Apache6

In support of 'cowboy action shooting' I've seen lever action rifles reloaded with black powder. Weapons will function. Does require primers.

You could reload AKs and ARs rounds with BP to. You would get totally new and poorer ballistics, and of course fouling would render the firearm clogged and useless for anything but manual operation like a bolt action relatively quickly. ( And maybe clog up that to eventually).

But it could still fire is what I am saying. As would most cartridge firearms.
stats would have to be changed alot - poorer range,pen etc. The smoke plume from shooting would be a huge "tell" in the terrain too.

But it would still go pop.

[weswood]

If you're talking about a sidearm with access to caps, I'd go with a Remington 1858. It's a full frame revolver (has the strap over the cylendar) in .36 or .44 caliber.

Long term hunting, I'd got with a .45 Hawkens or Kentucky rifle with a flintlock. With a .45 ammo will weigh less and if you have to pour your own, you'll get more round per pound of lead. You can use a heavier load of powder for larger game, a lighter load for smaller game.

It's been a while since I've shot mine (.45 Kentucky percussion) but I know SABOT and minnie rounds are available for the larger .50 & .54 calibers. Not sure of .45.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

All of the above just my 2 cents - it is probably only worth 1 cent

You're forgetting about inflation -- your 2 cents now goes for 6.294 cents on the international exchange.

[pmulcahy11b]

I have a very few blackpowder rifles and muskets on my site, and most of them are replicas or modern inlines. Might help somewhat (and I really would like help in getting the rules adaptations right).

[dragoon500ly]

Since we are talking about BP weapons, thought that this may be of some interest…

Source is Civil War Firearms by Joseph G. Bilby

Smoothbores

At first glance, many decree the lowly smoothbore citing its poor accuracy and horrible effective range. To be sure, these are valid arguments, but smoothbores have several advantages. Among muzzle loaders, the smoothbore was cheaper to manufacture and faster to load than a rifle-musket. It was capable of reasonable accuracy on man-sized targets up to fifty yards and volley fire was effective on large formations up to a hundred yards.

Although loading a single-round ball was standard procedure in the early days of the musket, the ability of the smooth bore to fire multiple projectiles was quickly discovered. In 1609, for example, the explorer Samuel de Champlain loaded four balls into his harquebus before engaging Iroquois Indians. His single shot struck several Indians..

Although Champlain had used full sized balls, by the time of the American Revolution it was common practice to load smaller buckshot, averaging around .30-caliber, along with a musket ball. The number of buckshot varied from eight to as many as fifteen. Gang molds that allowed the troops to cast both ball and buckshot were common issue.

The Lewis and Clark Expedition issued each of its men with one hundred balls and two pounds of buckshot before leaving St. Louis, Missouri. The so-called “buck-and-ball” cartridge was standard issue during the War of 1812.

By 1835, the U.S. Army standardized its buck-and-ball cartridges at one .65-caliber musket ball and three buckshot.

By the time of the Civil War, both sides were largely equipped with smoothbores with rifle-muskets equipping roughly one-third of the troops. Opinions on the value of the smoothbore was widely divided. Some troops would ditch their smoothbores and pick up rifle-muskets from the battlefield. Other units (the famous Irish Brigade is just one example) kept their smoothbores and rushed to close range where their buck-and-ball rounds gave them a tremendous advantage in a short-range fight.

Another famous example was the actions of the 12th New Jersey Volunteers at Gettysburg. While waiting to for Pickett’s Charge, the Jerseymen tore open back and ball cartridges and loaded their smoothbores with massive charges of buckshot which they then used to deadly effect on the left flank of the Confederates. The monument of the 12th New Jersey puzzles many tourists as it is a column topped by one huge ball and three smaller balls, mute testimony to the reverence these soldiers had for their “obsolete” but deadly smoothbores.

The original U.S. Model 1842 musket fired a 412-grain .65-caliber ball backed by 130 grains of musket powder. Ten grains of this charge was used as the priming charge, while 120 grains went down the muzzle. For modern black powder shooters, a charge of 60-70 grains of FFG powder is a good starting place.

Before firing, the user should first insure that the barrel is thoroughly cleaned to remove all traces of oil before firing. Oil in the barrel will “kill” a charge, leaving the shooter with the problem of extracting it. After cleaning and before firing, check once more to confirm the weapon is loaded. This excellent safety habit consists of dropping the ramrod down the barrel. If you hear a metallic ring rather than a thud and the ramrod goes down as far inside the barrel as it does when held alongside, then the weapon is confirmed as empty and safe to load.

Before actually loading, point the musket in a safe direction and prime it and then fire. The explosion of the powder will clear any remaining oil and debris out of the touchhole and serves as a final check to insure the weapon is empty.

While paper cartridges can be used, most modern shooters use either a plastic or cardboard tube to hold the ball and powder. To load, remove the ball from the tube, and keeping the barrel pointed away from your face, pour the powder charge into the barrel. Grasp the ball between thumb and forefinger and then insert it into the muzzle in a sliding motion, making sure to keep the fingers from directly crossing the muzzle. Take the ramrod between thumb and forefinger and ram the ball down onto the powder charge. Remove the ramrod and then raise the musket to the ready position, at waist level with the muzzle pointing down range. Thumb the hammer to half cock, push the frizzen forward and then place about 10 grains of priming powder (FFFFH works best) away from the touchhole and then close the frizzen. Bring the hammer to full cock and then bring the musket to your shoulder.

Most smoothbores do not have a rear sight, with the shooter’s eye serving as the rear sight. For this reason, it is important to always place your cheek on the same spot for each and every shot, in order to provide consistency of aim. Elevation and windage corrections may be made by filing or moving the front sight.

Unlike the minie ball, the round ball has no grooves to hold lubricant which softens powder fouling. Without lubricant, a tight-fitting ball will quickly become difficult to ram home. The fouling problem can be mitigated by cleaning between shots. An easy way to provide lubricant while shooting a smoothbore is to encase the ball in a lubricated cloth patch while loading.

A lubricated, less-than-bore diameter ball is necessary to limit fouling uring a match shoot. One way to lubricate a round abll is to insert the ball in a plastic cartridge tube, depressing it a quarter of an inch below the top of the tube and spoon melted bullet lubricant (a vegetable shorting and beeswax mix is popular (yet another use for Crisco!!!!) on top of the ball. This creates a lubricant plug on one end of the ball. Load the ball with the lubricant on top of the powder.

Another convenient way to apply lubricant to a round ball is to tak a small square of aluminum foil and deposit a spoonful of lubricant in the cent of the foil. Place the ball on the lubricant and then fold up the foil around the ball and twist shut. Insert the ball into a cartridge tube, twist up. The ball is easily removed from the tube by the twist and then inserted, twist up into the bore. Not only does this method provide lubrication to keep fouling soft, but the foil acts as a patch to help center the ball.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by weswood

It's been a while since I've shot mine (.45 Kentucky percussion) but I know SABOT and minnie rounds are available for the larger .50 & .54 calibers. Not sure of .45.

This is one reason I am looking at the 1861 Springfield. The weapon is well known for its' use of the minnie ball. The relative size of the load allowed 2-3 rounds a minute, which at the time, was revolutionary for rifled guns. Yes, a well trained English soldier could get off 3-4 rounds a minute with a Brown Bess. But a well trained Union/Confederate soldier could hit that English soldier at 100-200 yards. The English soldier was lucky to hit at 50-100 yards.

This is one reason that you saw enormous earthen works on Civil War battlefields, especially toward the middle and end of the war. This would keep your riflemen covered while they prevented your opposition soldiers from shooting the guys who were working the artillery. The artillery was there to cover the riflemen if the opposition got too close. Cannister and double cannister would devistate ANY mass assault.

The minnie round caused more grief that any other. Even if you were hit in a non-lethal area, arm or leg say, you had to contend with the horrific shattereing effect that the minnie caused. With the lack of medical knowledge, amputation was usually the ONLY thing that might keep you alive. Even modern medicine would have a hard time with a hit from a minnie.

My $0.02

Mike

[Brother in Arms]

Hey everyone long time no post.....sorry.

I have been using black powder firearms since I was about 10 years old. I was fortunate enough to go to a boyscout summer camp called Camp Bomazeen in the Belgrade lakes region of Maine and it had a mountain man inspired theme called black powder week. Believe it or not that catapulted my interest in history and at around age 14 I became a French and Indian war (1754-1763) Reenactor. So I have owned and operated many many black powder firearms from the smallest derringer to a 12 pound field gun.

I am not totally sure what I have in my collection these days as it is several states away. But I do remember some...so here goes.

1-1851 .44 Army percussion revolver (brass frame)repro
1-1851 .36 Navy percussion Revolver (brass frame)repro
1-1862 .32 pocket model percussion revolver(brass frame) repro
1-single shot .40 caliber screw barrel pistol brass frame.
2-.69 caliber smooth bore flintlock pistols (made in India in the 70's ugly Repro's but they were fun when I was a kid.)

1-Thompson center Seneca .45 caliber percussion rifle
1-Thompson center Cherokee .32 caliber percussion rifle (with 2x scope)
1-Leman .54 caliber percussion
1-Enfield 1858 .69 caliber (14 gauge) smooth bore carbine (made in India repro) And was my favorite percussion gun the .32 Seneca is my second.

1-.66 caliber Flint lock smooth bore carbine "canoe gun" made by "Sweet
William" Bill Douglas.
1-.62 caliber Flint Lock "fowling piece" made by Jack Garner
1-.62 caliber Flint lock smooth bore Barnett "Trade gun" made by Larry Walton
1-.62 caliber Flint lock smooth bore "Type-C fusil" made by Larry walton
1-.69 caliber Flint lock smooth bore 1717 French musket made by Larry Walton

1 .45-70 Remington Rolling block buffalo rifle by Pedersoli
1. 43 Egyptian Remington Rolling block #1 (original currently being restored to functioning condition by me)

That is a few I can remember off the top of my head. Anyway question about anything black powder let me know. Personally I prefer flint locks and I really like smooth bored but rifle are great too. I have owned several of each type.