Survival in a T2K World

[mikeo80]

I had a very interesting morning that led me to these thoughts. I went for a long walk in a local (NC) State Park. Well marked trails, plenty of up and down some soft hills, lots of trees, birds, squirels, and other little critters.

As I walked several thoughts occured to me. (Scary, I know!! )

1) I am in worse shape than I thought. I walked about 2.5 miles or approx 4 KM. At the end I was TIRED. But what if I HAD to walk out of a SHTF scenario? I did not have any backpack or any other weight. Conclusion: I need to walk A LOT more!!!! Then add a backpack with equipment in it!!

2) Walking in a park is much easier than if I had to walk through a forrest.

3) If I had to walk out of Fayetteville, NC due to a SHTF problem, I would have to walk a LONG way to get out of Fayetteville. It would be at least 10 miles or 16 KM before I was clear of the city. Fayetteville is not a big city. (Approx 75-100 thousand) but the way it is laid out (or sprawled out) there is a LOT of distance to cover if I wanted to get from here at home to somewhere away from here.

4) This is not T2K related. In the park I walked in, there is an outlook over the Cape Fear River. While I was at the outlook I noticed that I saw nothing but trees and river for as far as I could see. I marveled at the view. Then a thought struck me. (Oh no, another thought!!) I started to imagine the Native Americans or the early European settlers seeing this. I tried to imagine the awe and wonderment of realizing that this type of environment went on and on and on.... Then, traversing this domain. With a knife, bow, arrows, and a spear (Native Americans) or, at best, a match lock or flint lock musket. (European) How would I have matched up to their abilities? (Not well at all) Could I survive here? (Not with out a LOT of modern tech to assist me.) All in all, this was a very humbling realization on my part.

Sorry if I rambled, but I think these thoughts are valid discussion points here on the board.

My $0.02

Mike

[Cdnwolf]

Good points. The problem with most big cities are their sprawling nature. I am lucky and live near the edge of my city but am still closed enough to the fall out zones from any nukes hitting Port Huron or Detroit.

[Targan]

In the vast majority of Australia, if you leave civilisation and walk out into the wilderness without being very fit and knowledgable in bushcraft you will probably die within a week or even a couple of days. Finding water is the biggest problem as most of Australia is arid or desert. Even in the part of Australia where I live, potable water wouldn't be easy to find once the pumps stopped working and the desalination plants shut down.

Then there's being able to find food that won't kill you, and avoiding the various creatures large and small which can kill you (many of them without even really setting out to do so). And then out in the desert there's the terrible heat in the days and aching cold at night. Really, most of the Australian continent seems like a gigantic kill zone specifically designed to make it hard for humans to survive.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Targan

Really, most of the Australian continent seems like a gigantic kill zone specifically designed to make it hard for humans to survive.

I notice you do not mention the most deadly creature in Australia. The Aussies themselves!!!! (Gently poking Targan in the side)

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

I notice you do not mention the most deadly creature in Australia. The Aussies themselves!!!! (Gently poking Targan in the side)

I'm not very dangerous any more, except perhaps to my co-workers if I haven't had my morning Red Bull

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

In the vast majority of Australia, if you leave civilisation and walk out into the wilderness without being very fit and knowledgable in bushcraft you will probably die within a week or even a couple of days. Finding water is the biggest problem as most of Australia is arid or desert. Even in the part of Australia where I live, potable water wouldn't be easy to find once the pumps stopped working and the desalination plants shut down.

Then there's being able to find food that won't kill you, and avoiding the various creatures large and small which can kill you (many of them without even really setting out to do so). And then out in the desert there's the terrible heat in the days and aching cold at night.

Sounds a lot like southern Arizona (where I live) for a good part of the year. On Friday, at the local wilderness-style disc golf course on the edge of the Tucson suburbs where I play, not only did the mercury stop close to 100F, we heard tell of a territorial diamondback rattlesnake, a roving mountain lion, and a heard of Javelina (an aggressive peccary)- I didn't see any of them myself, but I've run into a large bobcat there twice. I live about 15 miles outside of town, about a mile from an old Titan missile silo. In the nine years I've lived out here in the sticks, we've killed countless scorpions, centipedes, and black widow spiders inside the house, and six rattlers in the yard. Although I like a lot about rural living, the wife and I have been pining for some of the conveniences of the 'burbs and are looking to move back there this summer. Bottom line is, I'm not cut out to be a survivalist.

[Rainbow Six]

On the subject of Australia, the BBC are currently showing a travelogue style programme on Sunday nights where the presenter is travelling around Australia. For those of you who can access the BBC I Player, last night's episde (part 2 of 3) included a ten minute or so segment on the Australian Army presence in the Northern Territory, so may be of some interest. He spent some time interviewing the CO of the Australian Armoured Regiment (including several shots of the M1A1 tanks, both on the range and parked up) then went out into the bush on patrol with Norforce.

Well worth a look...

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Sounds a lot like southern Arizona (where I live) for a good part of the year. On Friday, at the local wilderness-style disc golf course on the edge of the Tucson suburbs where I play, not only did the mercury stop close to 100F, we heard tell of a territorial diamondback rattlesnake, a roving mountain lion, and a heard of Javelina (an aggressive peccary)- I didn't see any of them myself, but I've run into a large bobcat there twice. I live about 15 miles outside of town, about a mile from an old Titan missile silo. In the nine years I've lived out here in the sticks, we've killed countless scorpions, centipedes, and black widow spiders inside the house, and six rattlers in the yard. Although I like a lot about rural living, the wife and I have been pining for some of the conveniences of the 'burbs and are looking to move back there this summer. Bottom line is, I'm not cut out to be a survivalist.

Speaking of hazards in southern Arizona, Rae, what's your take on the cartel situation down there?

- C.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Speaking of hazards in southern Arizona, Rae, what's your take on the cartel situation down there?

We don't really hear much about cartel activities here in SAZ. There's not much cartel-related violence on this side of the border or, if there is, it's not being reported by the media. Until recently, my rec-league soccer team was about 60% FBI, and I never heard any of them mention anything about MDCs (to be fair, they were pretty good about not discussing work-related stuff with the non-agents on the team). Border Patrol and ICE busts traffickers trying to smuggle pot and/or people across the wilderness areas between the various ports of entry. From time to time, they'll bust a rig or other vehicle trying to sneak drugs directly through the border crossings. Highway Patrol or local law enforcement will, from time to time, snag an SUV laden with drugs on its way up the I-10 to Phoenix. There're also a couple of freelance militia groups that operate in the border area that "help out" the feds with border security, and a pretty sweet Native American tracking unit that works the corridors that pass through the reservations that border Mexico. Still, the drugs keep on coming. The people that get busted are usually just pawns, paid peanuts to smuggle product over the border. All in all, my impression is that the cartels aren't active on this side of the border or, if they are, they're keeping a very low profile.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've mentioned it before and I think it still holds true...I was no "prepper" (and aside from "for hurricane season" still am not) back in 1997. Had things gone the T2k way back then I'd probably be dead within a year, along with all of my loved ones, regardless of Orlando and surrounding communities not being struck.

Even if by some miracle there was enough law and order to prevent the inevitable widescale panic looting, food would simply run out. The canon description of Florida is basically that it's Somalia-by-the-Gulf-of-Mexico. I could see New America dragging cars (or rather, myself and a few other hundred "unclean" types dragging cars) across the runways at MCO and other major airports in the region to stop any relief aid from coming in, followed by summary executions/forced labor extermination camps.

Then the hurricanes hit; what was it, five major ones by canon from '98-'01? Of course without any warning at all.

Might as well have just put an entry in Howling Wilderness that reads "FLORIDA: completely depopulated" and moved on to the next.

(This is the kind of misery tourism that makes me run a decidedly non-canon stateside...)

[stormlion1]

I live in South Jersey myself, if I don't die from radioactivity from Philly or Baltimore survival in a state as overpopulated as mine would become a challenge. I'm relatively fit and go camping and Kayaking a few times a year, including hiking in several miles or kayaking into remote sites into the Pine Barrens and I have a good supply of outdoor gear and foods and some woodcraft (Making fire, finding water, catching small game) that might allow me to survive for a length of time. Back when Sandy hit I essentially moved out of my apartment as it was a hothouse and moved into my tent and camped through it. After a week one really learns to appreciate electrical conveniences that make life easy, and cooking over a open fire isn't as easy as it looks. Even finding water became a issue as bottled water ran out in the area and I actually made up a solar still that worked quite well. It was surprising how well I made out, though I had tons of issues and I watched my friends and neighbors essentially break down from there problems.

After the power came on, I cleaned my gear and bought several cases of water in case of next time and a few boxes of MRE's that I'm slowly killing off in camping trips. I think I could survive for a time, but in the end I would have to watch out for other people as there competition for outside resource's and the ones I would have with me. Maybe next time I would head for the deep Pines and hide out there with my gear and wait for the population to kill or starve itself off.

[Adm.Lee]

I recently discovered a snag in any SHTF preparations I've not made. Years ago, I bought a rifle from a friend who needed the money to pay off some debt. I shot it twice, locked it up, and buried it under some stuff in the basement when we started having children.

Earlier this year, I dug it out, just to make sure it was there. Uh, oh, guess what's happened to the keys for the padlock on the case and the trigger lock? (Seriously, do you know? 'Cause I can't find them anywhere.)

I was able to pry the (plastic & foam) case apart far enough to make sure the gun was still in there.

So, that's the weapon part of my planning-- I have a big hard plastic box to hit people with!

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I recently discovered a snag in any SHTF preparations I've not made. Years ago, I bought a rifle from a friend who needed the money to pay off some debt. I shot it twice, locked it up, and buried it under some stuff in the basement when we started having children.

Earlier this year, I dug it out, just to make sure it was there. Uh, oh, guess what's happened to the keys for the padlock on the case and the trigger lock? (Seriously, do you know? 'Cause I can't find them anywhere.)

I was able to pry the (plastic & foam) case apart far enough to make sure the gun was still in there.

So, that's the weapon part of my planning-- I have a big hard plastic box to hit people with!

Bolt cutters are an important part of your kit!

(Also, I have read - but not verified - that storing a weapon in open-cell foam for a long period of time is a bad idea because the foam tends to attract moisture. Anyone have any firsthand confirmation of that?)

- C.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Bolt cutters are an important part of your kit!

(Also, I have read - but not verified - that storing a weapon in open-cell foam for a long period of time is a bad idea because the foam tends to attract moisture. Anyone have any firsthand confirmation of that?)

- C.

I can't speak to the moisture issue but for extremely long term storage, if he's using a sealant gel like cosmoline or some sort, the foam itself might denature and gunk up the rifle's workings.

[mikeo80]

I have enjoyed reading the various thoughts posted under this thread. Then, a memory hit.

The other day I was re-reading one of my favorite SHTF novels, "Alas Babylon" by Pat Frank. I was struck by something the lead character, Randy Bragg, did. He put together a collection of stuff he dubbed "Iron Rations". Stuff that would keep a long time, but would not be needed until necessary.

I know we all have our own "stash". Built and designed around our interpretation of what we deem necessary.

Do any of you have "Iron Ration" supplies?

I started to divert a small amount of stuff such as bullion, instant coffee, ramen noodles, a little bit of ammo, and etc. into a file cabinet that I do not need. Food is sealed in plastic containers to keep critters away. Ammo is in a plastic storage bag to keep out air.

AS always, thoughts and comments are welcome!

My $0.02

Mike

[raketenjagdpanzer]

After Sandy hit, I reevaluated my "preparation" for hurricanes. I'm sandbagging a lot of canned foods and cycling it out when it's a year off from expy. to the church's goodwill pantry. Rushing in and buying some canned goods a week from an expected storm strike is poor planning.

I for one don't intend to be sitting here waiting on a maybe-comes-by FEMA truck with some MREs and bottled water. Nosir.

[stormlion1]

I have several cases of soup stocked away, a case or two of Ramen Noodles, ammo in metal ammo cans for the guns, several cases of water stocked away and a couple of boxes of MRE's. Lots of boxes of Saltines for basic snacking. I actually slowly use the stuff up as the year goes by and constantly replace them as there used up so the numbers remain relativly constant. If shit did go down, there is at least four months of supplies stockpiled away at any one time and that's not counting other foods in my kitchen. Main problem is transporting it if I had to relocate.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

Main problem is transporting it if I had to relocate.

I agree, Stormlion1. IF SHTF, getting out would pose a major problem. Here in Fayetteville, NC, there are very few major roads going north/east/south. Almost none heading west. IF it is at all possible, I plan to shelter in place. IMHO, the road system (?) in Fayetteville would collapse very quickly. And this is a town of 75-100 thousand. The county adds another 100-150 thousand. Very small to compare to NE USA cities.

My $0.02

Mike

[stormlion1]

A advantage for me is that there lots of side roads and major roads around me so if I did have to leave getting out should be easy, and I fully expect the area to get swamped with people from Philly, North Jersey, and possibly Delaware looking for food. The plan is to get out of dodge and drive to the nearby Pine Barrens and shelter there. Most likely driving off a side road and then unpacking the truck of gear and hiking a few miles in and then transporting my gear deeper as I go. I would also disable the truck in place by removing the battery and tires and hiding them, so if I needed to I could get it running later. It would require multiple trips but being off the beaten path is my best bet and things like water are easily found from mutiple streams so that wouldn't be a issue. Sheltering in place for me would be a death sentence and the bulk of the people wont enter the Pines even if they thought there was food there, its too easy to get lost. Currently replacing my tent and sleeping bag though as I have become concerned there not up to par with conditions if I had to rough it for too long. Good for short trips, but anything longer than a week and there will be problems.

[headquarters]

Up here in Norway I guess the winter is going to be the the enemy - competition for food and fuel ( wood) would be harsh given the prepper type SHTF situation.

Without electricity heating would be gone and with periods lasting weeks or months with severe cold, people in the cities would keel over or kill eachother off in a short time.

In the countryside people would fare better I guess. They have access to firewood and possibly farms nearby. Pre electricity early industrial Norway Norway had less than 1 million people. Today we have past 5 million inhabitants.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Pre electricity early industrial Norway Norway had less than 1 million people. Today we have past 5 million inhabitants.

This, I believe, is a very telling figure. Once the power goes out in the T2KU, I foresee a similar population collapse on a global scale, factoring in casualties from war (both nuclear and conventional), disease, starvation, exposure, etc.

[Cdnwolf]

That is the one factor under featured in the game. The rise of diseases from the past. I see chickenpox and even measles becoming a serious epidemic in a small town, never mind the regulars like dysentery and cholera. Black plague anyone???

[stormlion1]

Disease will be an issue, especially once the power is out and most people have no clue what to do with there hygene when there is no running water or adequate toilet facilities. It wont take long for disease to spread and begin to kill of a local population. In fact more people will die from disease then any violence in the area, and let's not get into the fact that once it starts the bodies will begin to pile up and things will get worse at that point, especially as most people want nothing to do with a dead body. I fully expect to see lots of shallow graves and then shallow grave unburied by scavengers soon after.

One of the best reasons yet for getting out of dodge in my opinion.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

That is the one factor under featured in the game. The rise of diseases from the past. I see chickenpox and even measles becoming a serious epidemic in a small town, never mind the regulars like dysentery and cholera. Black plague anyone???

Luckily most infectious diseases don't just appear out of nowhere. They have to have reservoirs among the population or in the wild. With the demise of easily accessible, fast, large-scale mass transport over long distances, the spread of infectious diseases from their reservoirs will be greatly reduced. Take the great influenza pandemic that occurred after WWI, that was spread all across the globe by all the soldiers returning from Europe to their native lands, and all the post-war movement of displaced peoples.

If you live in a country where a disease like measles has been largely eradicated, it will be a long time before you see it return. Unfortunately the Operation Omega repatriation of tens of thousands of soldiers from Europe to the US is likely to bring a bunch of nasty diseases into the CONUS at the disembarkation points.

Of course, diseases that are the direct result of poor hygiene and/or contamination of drinking water will make a much faster and widespread return. Their mitigation will require serious efforts and education regarding personal hygiene and the safe storage and preparation of potable water and foodstuffs.

[bobcat]

ok for MY situation im fairly well off.
north central PA being far from most primary nuclear targets though the iron works down the way might get hit with something since they do make parts for things like tanks.

if/when the village water supply gets cut i have a backup well dug(left over from before the water system got out here)

small arms, ammo, and reloading supplies readily at hand zero'd and kept in good maintenance(i'm still working on standardising some of it though)

as for food a decent garden, and my stockpiled canned goods should last quite a while

for electricity my brother and i are building a small windmill to provide some power with solar cells also being put in and a few backup generators to provide power as needed for anything beyond just lights pumps and water heaters)

the biggest concern should a T2K scenario actually occur is building supplies i don't exactly have a conex full of lumber and sandbags ready to go or anything.

but for 90% of any fucked up situation that is likely to occur i can safely say i should be able to last a few weeks of sheltering in place before i need to worry about too much.

[stormlion1]

One thing I've been thinking about in regards to survival is camoflauge. If its obvious you have power or food someone is going to come by and going to want to take it. Usually several someones and all well armed. For those sheltering in place, you have no wear to go and have to fend any assaults off or be prepared to give out handouts. It comes down to how long you can last. For those who plan to get outa dodge it really comes down to getting off the beaten path, but you lose access to any tools you can't transport as well as a built roof over your head. Any thoughts on hiding your forethought into being prepared?

[Targan]

Buried shipping containers make excellent bunkers for storing caches. Another oldie but goodie.

[mikeo80]

Stormlion,

I agree with what you said. Being away from population IS a better solution that being in population for the very reasons you state.

There is one problem, unless you are in a isolated spot when SHTF, you are going to be stuck in the city. Transportation arteries will grind to a halt within minutes. EVERYONE is trying to get the heck out of Dodge. Right now I could afford to buy a spot away from Fayetteville, NC. BUT I work on Fort Bragg. So once again I would be stuck getting out. Now, granted, with a T2K type scenario where SHTF starts somewhere else and takes time getting to the USA, then there is the option of evacuation. But, as was stated here on the forum a long time ago, when the first nuke lights off in China, the scramble to get the heck out is on. Transportation stops, you are stuck. Not fun.

Time to get off of my soap box.

My $0.02

Mike