Grappling and melee

[TiggerCCW UK]

I know that there are a lot of faults with the melee system in T2K, but I was wondering if anyone had a better system for grappling. This has come into my head with my merc game coming up, and in light of a bit of a barney we had in work last night.

Long story short, while working last night I became involved in removing a couple of guys from work (one of them had punched a female customer and knocked her out). We were taking the guys up to hold them for the cops when one of them (had to be the biggest, didn't it) got loose and things got a bit lively for a few minutes. One of my doormen got his nose broken and there was a fair old scuffle. It took 4 of us to restrain the guy and bring him to the ground where we were able to hold him for the police. He's been charged with assault and abh.

To be honest, the Twilight melee system wasn't going through my head at the time, but thinking about it since I was wondering how that would have played out in game terms. In my last campaign I did have a player who melee'd for preference, and the grapple rules seemed to make it pretty easy to overpower and hold someone. As we proved last night, if someone doesn't want to be restrained, it can be hard to control them.

[Caradhras]

Fair point.

I guess you have to think about the 'playability' aspect too though. If it became so difficult to pin/hold someone, no-one would bother trying.

I reckon it is not too difficult to overpower/restain someone 1 v 1 when you have a str/size advantage in normal circs. In a scenario where the opponent is big and 'handy', combined with 'adrenalin rushed' and possibly drink/drugs...then maybe the GM needs to throw in a few additional modifiers to the rules

[Legbreaker]

I suppose one way to look at it is in terms of skill levels.
Do any of the participants in your RL scuffle have much in the way of actual training? If so, how would they rate on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being effectively untrained and ten the worlds greatest martial artist?

[Targan]

My players love to get into hand to hand, grappling and melee weapons combat in my campaign. The original T2K systems handle such combat poorly. I recommend making your own system for that kind of combat or convert to an existing system you like.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Caradhras

Fair point.

I guess you have to think about the 'playability' aspect too though. If it became so difficult to pin/hold someone, no-one would bother trying.

I reckon it is not too difficult to overpower/restain someone 1 v 1 when you have a str/size advantage in normal circs. In a scenario where the opponent is big and 'handy', combined with 'adrenalin rushed' and possibly drink/drugs...then maybe the GM needs to throw in a few additional modifiers to the rules

I agree that playability needs to be maintained, rather than just going for total realism, but the game just seems to go too far down the easy route. I'm coming up on 18 years in the bar door trade and its rare that a restraint ever goes as easy as the game would make it look. For the record the guy last night was pretty drunk, but we don't think there was any drug use involved.

When you say that you think it should be easy to restrain someone 1 on 1 do you mean in game terms or in real life? I agree that the game should be slightly biased towards the players and give them a chance, I think the melee rules have gone too far.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I suppose one way to look at it is in terms of skill levels.
Do any of the participants in your RL scuffle have much in the way of actual training? If so, how would they rate on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being effectively untrained and ten the worlds greatest martial artist?

I'm unsure about whether the unknown male had any training, but I don't think so. On our end none of us have any formal martial arts training, but the others involved had at least 3 years experience on the door and I'm pushing 18 years bar and door. It should be pointed out that we were somewhat limited in options of what we could actually do - we were getting the police involved so we wanted to hand him over intact and uninjured. Of course his own personal rules of engagement were slightly different. Had it just been a case of chinning him to remove a threat it would have been a lot quicker.

Another relevant factor is that he was a fair bit bigger than us - but then its never the easy ones that kick off.

[Legbreaker]

I know it's simplifying A LOT but could it be said the drunk had a Str and Con of say 8 while everyone else were say average 5?
Being drunk might also contribute, artificially raising his Con another few points while simultaneously reducing Int (common sense) to a negative figure...

Of course the rules are certainly bent towards PCs winning, but as you say you were also trying to restrain rather than kill/injure. Having to "pull punches" so to speak is certainly going to have a BIG impact, especially when the drunk is probably doing everything in their power to escape.

Now, from the way I see it, and trying not to complicate things too much, Strikes, Blocks and Diving Blows can probably stand as they are - it's Grappling that appears to be too easy. How can that be adjusted in such a way that Grappling is still a viable option for characters?

[Targan]

The way Harnmaster handles grappling you first match the level of success or failure of each participant's appropriate skill roll (Unarmed Combat or a martial art skill) on a two axis grid, one axis for the attacker and one for the defender. The levels of success/failure in Harnmaster are Critical Success, Marginal Success, Marginal Failure, Critical Failure. You cross reference on the grid and it tells you what the next step will be. If the attacker has successfully grappled he can attempt to exploit the hold which requires a further Unarmed or MA check and a test of strength against strength (each side rolls 2d6 and adds their strength to it and highest total wins). There are various things you can do with an exploited hold like squeezing, choking, restraining, attempting to dislocated or break limbs, imobilise etc.

[Caradhras]

I use to do Ju-jitsu and the one on one fights used to include grapple/restraint. This was wholly possible. This said, when I was a skinny 16 yr old this guy who was basically a 30something yr old 16 stoner built like a Dwarf (same width as height) once embarrassed me in front of the whole ju-jitsu class and just stood there completely immobile grinning at my vain attempts to put him on the floor. Would love top meet him in the same scenario now...one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60

This said, I just discussed this thread at lunch with my 2 m8s who are doormen and they agreed with the circumstances you stated. Some guys just wont be restrained.

The rumes are basic enough to just tweak to the situation, if the person being restrained is 'enraged' or similar adjust accordingly.

[TiggerCCW UK]

There's nothing quite like the "Oh shit" factor generated by giving your all against a guy and he just doesn't move. Happened to me back in '98 with a punter who was sleazing over some of my female customers. Asked him to leave, he refused and got a bit lively. I grabbed him and managed to restrain him, but I just couldn't move him. It looked like it was going to come down to who could last longer, but thankfully more of our staff arrived and between us we got him out - turned out he was an Isreali ex squaddie, not something I expected to run across on a Tuesday in Belfast!

[Badbru]

An Israeli ex squadie eh? Reminds me of a story I once heard, or maybe read about. Four Israeli's were holliday in the Kashmir region border of India and Pakistan when it was observed that they were taken hostage by armed gunmen. The next day with a police search gathering momemtum the four stroll into the local police station and dump an armload of weapons on the counter and proceed to give directions to the startled attending officer as to where the no longer armed gunmen could be found.

Maybe you were luckier than you know Tigger...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Very definitely! I reckon he'd probably only done his basic conscription rather than anything more serious as he came across as having no real idea of what to do once I'd grabbed him. I'd him held restrained and he wasn't posing any real risk to me, just struggling fairly ineffectualy, but at the same time I just couldn't get him moved. Could have ended badly I know. You'd think I'd learn my lesson over the years - I had a punter pull a knife on me way back in '95 which I took off him (he was only 18, seriously weedy and so drunk that he was more of a danger to himself), that could have gone tits up as well.

[Caradhras]

[QUOTE=Caradhras]one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60

QUOTE]

ermm, although true that I am stranger - I meant stronger :

[TiggerCCW UK]

As a foot note to this thread, I've been suffering with my knee more than normal since that row, and one of the knuckles on my right hand has been kind of sore and swollen. Went to A&E on Thursday after I felt something rip in my knee. Apparently I've buggered my ACL I already had problems with the knee from a fall while climbing in the alps in '91 (displaced my knee cap about 3/4 of an inch to the left and down) and the doc reckons my ACL has been damaged since then, but this ruck may have pretty much finished it off. As far as the knuckle goes, they think I might have chipped a bone. Back to the hospital on Monday for an x-ray of my hand to see whats wrong with it, and to see an ortho surgeon about the knee. Had better weeks On a crutch now and signed off work for a minimum of 2 weeks. Worst bit is that the little lady doesn't understand why this Tigger just isn't so bouncey today.

[Targan]

Gee Tig that sux

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

As a foot note to this thread, I've been suffering with my knee more than normal since that row, and one of the knuckles on my right hand has been kind of sore and swollen. Went to A&E on Thursday...

I'm a slight bit confused -- here in the US, A&E is a cable TV network...

At least you're not still in the military -- now in retirement, I'm paying for injuries I ignored while on active duty!

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

Who knows? I've been taken Vicodin for some five years now -- it takes most of the pain away, but doesn't give me a feeling of "excessive well-being."

BTW, in the US, it can be hard to find a doctor who will prescribe narcotics for chronic pain, mostly because of government regulation and patient abuse. I got lucky that Dr. Yu was willing to buck the system. She's one of the best doctors I've ever had.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

Scoff a fistful - that oughta do it.

Umm, I feel I should add that I'm joking.

[TiggerCCW UK]

So, I went back to the hospital yesterday. Saw a different doctor and she told me that there definitely isn't anything wrong with my ACL! Unfortunately she couldn't tell me what was wrong with my leg other than wear and tear on top of the old injury. She also couldn't tell me why the knee keeps buckling out from under me when I try to put weight on it. All she told me was to stop using the crutch as soon as I could. Told her that as soon as I could put weight on the leg I would. She x rayd my knee and found nothing and I've been referred for an MRI, should get it in 6-8 weeks. Hopefully know more then.

On the plus side when they did the x ray of my hand it came back clear apart from some grit in the wound. Managed to get that cleaned out and its on the mend already.

[Targan]

Some good news there at least Tig. Be interesting to hear about your MRI results.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years. 18 years on its not great, but I'm not a raspberry yet!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years. 18 years on its not great, but I'm not a raspberry yet!

Six years ago Dr Casillas (my foot orthopedist) told me he's probably be working on my ankle again within 3 years. He's still waiting for me to come back again...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Some good news there at least Tig. Be interesting to hear about your MRI results.

Why is there a 6-8 week wait for an MRI down under?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Why is there a 6-8 week wait for an MRI down under?

I think you might be confusing my location with Targan's Paul. I'm in Northern Ireland and the main reason there's a 6-8 week wait here is that there's only 2 MRI's in NI, plus its the NHS, which means free health care, but a bit of a wait. If I was willing to pay to go private it might be a bit quicker, but it'd be a lot of cash. 6-8 weeks isn't too bad - my father waited over a year for one two years ago and I waited two years when I first injured the leg. I also waited 3 years for surgery after that.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I think you might be confusing my location with Targan's Paul. I'm in Northern Ireland and the main reason there's a 6-8 week wait here is that there's only 2 MRI's in NI, plus its the NHS, which means free health care, but a bit of a wait. If I was willing to pay to go private it might be a bit quicker, but it'd be a lot of cash. 6-8 weeks isn't too bad - my father waited over a year for one two years ago and I waited two years when I first injured the leg. I also waited 3 years for surgery after that.

Ooops on your location.

That's the advantage of being a disabled veteran who's also eligible for Medicare -- I can get anything I need medically pretty easily. (It also helps living in a rapidly-growing city with three military bases and lots of retirees.) I often forget how lucky I am in that respect. Hang in there, Tigger.

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Ooops on your location.

That's the advantage of being a disabled veteran who's also eligible for Medicare -- I can get anything I need medically pretty easily. (It also helps living in a rapidly-growing city with three military bases and lots of retirees.) I often forget how lucky I am in that respect. Hang in there, Tigger.

Paul you are smoking crack! Its all about location, location, location when it comes to the whole disabled veteran medical care. For me it was a good 15 years for the metal to be removed <only supposed to be in for 18 months and was going on 16.5 years cost me ALOT!> As for MRI again the back log in Loma Linda was months, in Long Beach just a couple months. All location location location I guess.

Targ, don't worry about what the Docs say, they said my leg would be comming off, then they said it wouldn't work, then they said I'd be on crutches and canes and eventualy a wheelchair, and lol well it ain't happened yet I actualy seem to be able to do a bit more than before. Just don't let them put it in your head, as well as don't baby it to much nor <my problem> do to much to fast, and drop the pounds if you need to that always helps.

Good luck on a speedy recovery.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

Paul you are smoking crack!

You're confusing that kind of crack with what happens when I bend over...

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

You're confusing that kind of crack with what happens when I bend over...

Then I am reporting you to the plumbers union for violating their thing!

I mean, has anyone here ever had a plumber who didn't show to much crack?