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#1
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I know that there are a lot of faults with the melee system in T2K, but I was wondering if anyone had a better system for grappling. This has come into my head with my merc game coming up, and in light of a bit of a barney we had in work last night.
Long story short, while working last night I became involved in removing a couple of guys from work (one of them had punched a female customer and knocked her out). We were taking the guys up to hold them for the cops when one of them (had to be the biggest, didn't it) got loose and things got a bit lively for a few minutes. One of my doormen got his nose broken and there was a fair old scuffle. It took 4 of us to restrain the guy and bring him to the ground where we were able to hold him for the police. He's been charged with assault and abh. To be honest, the Twilight melee system wasn't going through my head at the time, but thinking about it since I was wondering how that would have played out in game terms. In my last campaign I did have a player who melee'd for preference, and the grapple rules seemed to make it pretty easy to overpower and hold someone. As we proved last night, if someone doesn't want to be restrained, it can be hard to control them.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#2
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Fair point.
I guess you have to think about the 'playability' aspect too though. If it became so difficult to pin/hold someone, no-one would bother trying. I reckon it is not too difficult to overpower/restain someone 1 v 1 when you have a str/size advantage in normal circs. In a scenario where the opponent is big and 'handy', combined with 'adrenalin rushed' and possibly drink/drugs...then maybe the GM needs to throw in a few additional modifiers to the rules ![]() |
#3
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I suppose one way to look at it is in terms of skill levels.
Do any of the participants in your RL scuffle have much in the way of actual training? If so, how would they rate on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being effectively untrained and ten the worlds greatest martial artist? |
#4
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My players love to get into hand to hand, grappling and melee weapons combat in my campaign. The original T2K systems handle such combat poorly. I recommend making your own system for that kind of combat or convert to an existing system you like.
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#5
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When you say that you think it should be easy to restrain someone 1 on 1 do you mean in game terms or in real life? I agree that the game should be slightly biased towards the players and give them a chance, I think the melee rules have gone too far.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. Last edited by TiggerCCW UK; 03-03-2009 at 09:39 AM. |
#6
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Another relevant factor is that he was a fair bit bigger than us - but then its never the easy ones that kick off.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#7
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I know it's simplifying A LOT but could it be said the drunk had a Str and Con of say 8 while everyone else were say average 5?
Being drunk might also contribute, artificially raising his Con another few points while simultaneously reducing Int (common sense) to a negative figure... Of course the rules are certainly bent towards PCs winning, but as you say you were also trying to restrain rather than kill/injure. Having to "pull punches" so to speak is certainly going to have a BIG impact, especially when the drunk is probably doing everything in their power to escape. Now, from the way I see it, and trying not to complicate things too much, Strikes, Blocks and Diving Blows can probably stand as they are - it's Grappling that appears to be too easy. How can that be adjusted in such a way that Grappling is still a viable option for characters? |
#8
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The way Harnmaster handles grappling you first match the level of success or failure of each participant's appropriate skill roll (Unarmed Combat or a martial art skill) on a two axis grid, one axis for the attacker and one for the defender. The levels of success/failure in Harnmaster are Critical Success, Marginal Success, Marginal Failure, Critical Failure. You cross reference on the grid and it tells you what the next step will be. If the attacker has successfully grappled he can attempt to exploit the hold which requires a further Unarmed or MA check and a test of strength against strength (each side rolls 2d6 and adds their strength to it and highest total wins). There are various things you can do with an exploited hold like squeezing, choking, restraining, attempting to dislocated or break limbs, imobilise etc.
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#9
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I use to do Ju-jitsu and the one on one fights used to include grapple/restraint. This was wholly possible. This said, when I was a skinny 16 yr old this guy who was basically a 30something yr old 16 stoner built like a Dwarf (same width as height) once embarrassed me in front of the whole ju-jitsu class and just stood there completely immobile grinning at my vain attempts to put him on the floor. Would love top meet him in the same scenario now...one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60
![]() This said, I just discussed this thread at lunch with my 2 m8s who are doormen and they agreed with the circumstances you stated. Some guys just wont be restrained. The rumes are basic enough to just tweak to the situation, if the person being restrained is 'enraged' or similar adjust accordingly. |
#10
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There's nothing quite like the "Oh shit" factor generated by giving your all against a guy and he just doesn't move. Happened to me back in '98 with a punter who was sleazing over some of my female customers. Asked him to leave, he refused and got a bit lively. I grabbed him and managed to restrain him, but I just couldn't move him. It looked like it was going to come down to who could last longer, but thankfully more of our staff arrived and between us we got him out - turned out he was an Isreali ex squaddie, not something I expected to run across on a Tuesday in Belfast!
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#11
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An Israeli ex squadie eh? Reminds me of a story I once heard, or maybe read about. Four Israeli's were holliday in the Kashmir region border of India and Pakistan when it was observed that they were taken hostage by armed gunmen. The next day with a police search gathering momemtum the four stroll into the local police station and dump an armload of weapons on the counter and proceed to give directions to the startled attending officer as to where the no longer armed gunmen could be found.
Maybe you were luckier than you know Tigger... |
#12
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Very definitely! I reckon he'd probably only done his basic conscription rather than anything more serious as he came across as having no real idea of what to do once I'd grabbed him. I'd him held restrained and he wasn't posing any real risk to me, just struggling fairly ineffectualy, but at the same time I just couldn't get him moved. Could have ended badly I know. You'd think I'd learn my lesson over the years - I had a punter pull a knife on me way back in '95 which I took off him (he was only 18, seriously weedy and so drunk that he was more of a danger to himself), that could have gone tits up as well.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#13
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[QUOTE=Caradhras]one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60
![]() QUOTE] ermm, although true that I am stranger - I meant stronger : ![]() |
#14
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As a foot note to this thread, I've been suffering with my knee more than normal since that row, and one of the knuckles on my right hand has been kind of sore and swollen. Went to A&E on Thursday after I felt something rip in my knee. Apparently I've buggered my ACL
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#15
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Gee Tig that sux
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#16
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At least you're not still in the military -- now in retirement, I'm paying for injuries I ignored while on active duty!
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#17
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Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#18
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Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#19
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BTW, in the US, it can be hard to find a doctor who will prescribe narcotics for chronic pain, mostly because of government regulation and patient abuse. I got lucky that Dr. Yu was willing to buck the system. She's one of the best doctors I've ever had.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#20
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Umm, I feel I should add that I'm joking.
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#21
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So, I went back to the hospital yesterday. Saw a different doctor and she told me that there definitely isn't anything wrong with my ACL! Unfortunately she couldn't tell me what was wrong with my leg other than wear and tear on top of the old injury. She also couldn't tell me why the knee keeps buckling out from under me when I try to put weight on it. All she told me was to stop using the crutch as soon as I could. Told her that as soon as I could put weight on the leg I would. She x rayd my knee and found nothing and I've been referred for an MRI, should get it in 6-8 weeks. Hopefully know more then.
On the plus side when they did the x ray of my hand it came back clear apart from some grit in the wound. Managed to get that cleaned out and its on the mend already.
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#22
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Some good news there at least Tig. Be interesting to hear about your MRI results.
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#23
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Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years. 18 years on its not great, but I'm not a raspberry yet!
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#24
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#25
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#26
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Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird. |
#27
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That's the advantage of being a disabled veteran who's also eligible for Medicare -- I can get anything I need medically pretty easily. (It also helps living in a rapidly-growing city with three military bases and lots of retirees.) I often forget how lucky I am in that respect. Hang in there, Tigger.
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 03-17-2009 at 05:40 PM. |
#28
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Paul you are smoking crack! Its all about location, location, location when it comes to the whole disabled veteran medical care. For me it was a good 15 years for the metal to be removed <only supposed to be in for 18 months and was going on 16.5 years cost me ALOT!> As for MRI again the back log in Loma Linda was months, in Long Beach just a couple months. All location location location I guess. Targ, don't worry about what the Docs say, they said my leg would be comming off, then they said it wouldn't work, then they said I'd be on crutches and canes and eventualy a wheelchair, and lol well it ain't happened yet ![]() Good luck on a speedy recovery.
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"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave." |
#29
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com |
#30
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Then I am reporting you to the plumbers union for violating their thing! I mean, has anyone here ever had a plumber who didn't show to much crack?
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"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave." |
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