Loyalty of non-Soviet Warsaw Pact forces

[dude_uk]

I think has cropped up before. But perhaps worth discussing again. How loyal are those countries who remain in the pact with the Soviets?

Budapest in '56, Prague in '68. Such things do not fade into the background.

Surrender to Tommy and Joe when they come by? Or does the abandonment by the west to Stalin still hurt. Is the Bundeswehr the old Wehrmacht?

Is it a simple case of some stay and some go?

The numbers:

Bulgaria: Regular 117,500 Reserves 472,500
Czechoslovakia: Regular 199,700 Reserves 295,000
GDR: Regular 173,100 Reserves 323,500 (Goes over to NATO 1996)
Hungary: Regular 91,000 Reserves 168,000
Poland: Regular 412,000 Reserves 505,000
Romania:171,000 Reserves:203,000 (Goes over to NATO 1997)

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, the Soviet OPLAN was do deploy eastern Europe and Western Republics's forces to China and the Middle East, and Russian, Ukrainian, Czech, and Poles to Europe and any attack on Alaska. Kind of tells you something there.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I know it wouldn't happen "like that" but God it'd be funny - Early 1999, 20,000 Poles sealift to Alaska, march on Anchorage...and immediately declare for the United States and ask to be transported to Norfolk to be shipped to the European Front to fight alongside NATO troops

[Adm.Lee]

In '96 and '97, I suspect the propaganda-fueled specter of reunited Germany might keep Poland, Czechoslovakia, and maybe Hungary in line, along with brutal crackdowns. After that, I have my doubts. NATO getting run out of Poland in the summer of '97 would put some kind of damper on Polish/Czechoslovak side-switching, too. If the West can't win, you may not want to join them.

When I run, I have a trickle, growing into a stream, of defectors from the East European armies and people. Not as many as outright deserters, but some. For story reasons, I like the idea of an active Polish resistance with a shadow government behind NATO lines. Of course, it's got some problems with double agents and KGB infiltration, but it tries.

[Olefin]

Bulgaria: Regular 117,500 Reserves 472,500

Most likely the Turkish invasion of Bulgaria made any chance of defections to NATO a moot point

However there was a very large Turkish minority population in Bulgaria, many of whom were in the Kardzhali Province that Turkey would have invaded for sure. Almost ten percent of the population were Turks.

So you could have seen defections from Turks serving in the Bulgarian Army to the NATO Turkish units during the war.

Hungary: Regular 91,000 Reserves 168,000

Actually surprised at how little info there is on them in the game. The 1956 invasion and its after effects made them the least trusted of any of the Warsaw Pact units - and them going lockstep along with the Warsaw Pact really doesn't make sense - especially after the Soviets were on the ropes in early 1997. You would have figured that when it looked like the West was going to win in walk in early and mid 1997 before the nukes started to fly that some units at the very least would have gone turncoat and taken on any Soviet units still on their soil.


Poland: Regular 412,000 Reserves 505,000

The fact that the Germans invaded and the devastation of the Polish heartland by the NATO invasion probably kept most Poles on the side of the Warsaw Pact but the game does say there were defections (Polish National Congress and the two units mentioned in Going Home for instance).

My campaign in college had one character played as a Polish Army defector who was attached to the 5th Division.

[mpipes]

And you gotta admit a LOT of Poles would be less than happy about Soviet tactical nukes detonating on Polish territory.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by mpipes

And you gotta admit a LOT of Poles would be less than happy about Soviet tactical nukes detonating on Polish territory.

I doubt they'd be very happy about the NATO tac nuke strikes either. Or the city-wrecking conventional strikes.

BTW, what is the source of teh troop numbers? From what year?

[kcdusk]

If your going to consider countries loyalty or not to the soviet union, using the same rational you should consider NATO countries loyalty to NATO/USA.

What if England, Germany, France didn't think the USA was supporting them? Sure, the USA might have its own issues at home to deal with. But the impression England/NATO etc might get is that USA is not supporting them at the coal face.

Personally, i think in T2K (whatever timeline you want to use). Nationalities counts for nothing. The whole world has become the wild west where literally anyone can be a friend or foe, or both (depending on the current need). And this is something i like about T2K, the fluidity. Looters are just as dangerous as "the former enemy soldiers".

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by mpipes

And you gotta admit a LOT of Poles would be less than happy about Soviet tactical nukes detonating on Polish territory.

They'd feel worse if they were told/believed they were NATO nukes.

[Olefin]

Well we know per the canon that there were turncoat Poles who helped NATO - besides the two Polish forces mentioned in Going Home it states that there were Poles attached to the 5th Division (most likely who functioned as scouts and interpreters)

Plus if you look at the Black Madonna and Krakow modules you get an idea of how many Poles felt about at least part of NATO - i.e. the Brits and Americans - the Polish Priest who is given the Madonna (at least in canon) was very friendly to Americans and Brits but not too happy if you were German or Soviet

So you may have had Poles either defect or not fight as hard if they were only faced by Brits or Americans - but who fought like the devil if the NATO troops they were facing were German units.

And given the experience of Poland in WWII I don't see the Germans being seen as liberators by many Poles - whereas the Americans and Brits may have gotten a completely different reception if it had been them and them alone who had gone into Poland (something that by the way had been discussed in the real world by NATO planners during war simulations where concerns were raised about German troops entering Czechoslovakia or Poland or other places where Hitler's legions had been)

As for nukes - keep in mind who used the nukes first - yes the Americans and NATO used them later - but those first mushroom clouds over Poland definitely weren't NATO ones - however any pro-NATO feeling about getting nuked by the Soviets probably died pretty quick after the Americans and Brits laid waste to Warsaw and other cities to cover their retreat

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

If your going to consider countries loyalty or not to the soviet union, using the same rational you should consider NATO countries loyalty to NATO/USA.

What if England, Germany, France didn't think the USA was supporting them? Sure, the USA might have its own issues at home to deal with. But the impression England/NATO etc might get is that USA is not supporting them at the coal face.

Personally, i think in T2K (whatever timeline you want to use). Nationalities counts for nothing. The whole world has become the wild west where literally anyone can be a friend or foe, or both (depending on the current need). And this is something i like about T2K, the fluidity. Looters are just as dangerous as "the former enemy soldiers".

Keep in mind that many of the turncoats may have happened early in the war when it looked like the US and NATO were going to win - back then nationalities still counted for a lot - by 2001 I totally agree with you on it not meaning as much - after all per canon many divisions on the NATO side are now a mixed up jumble of all kinds of nationalities, even some ex-Soviet soldiers

[rcaf_777]

Here are some things to take into account for Poland

1. Karol Józef Wojtyła is Polish you all might know him as Pope John Paul II

2. The Solidarity Movement had over 10 million member at it's height and won 161 seats in the Polish legislative election of 1989

3. There is a Polish government-in-exile till 1990

4. Thier are two Free Polish Legions (CIA backed?)

5. Radio Free Europe and the Voice of American broadcast to Poland

[headquarters]

Strategically Poland was a buffer to the west and to be treated as one by Sov GHQ. They had RL plans to nuke most of it in the event of impending NATO invasion of the motherland through Poland.

I would think this mentality would shine through in conventional war as well and the Polish nationalists ( General Jaruzelski who ran Poland had his own brand ow commie-nationalism) would probably split into pro Moscow and pro Polish interests if things came to a boil.

Just my opnion of course.

[jester]

You'd have a mix. Some areas who are ethnically Russian would remain loyal whereas traditional peoples who suffered under soviet repression would probably turn over to Nato. This was the case with hundreds of thousands in the early years of the Eastern Front in WWII if you remember.