T2K Modelling and Skirmish Gaming

[Anna Elizabeth]

And so it begins, I've finished the first 1/35th conversion for my plan of T2K Skirmish Gaming. I know it sounds crazy, but 1/35 is a good compromise between availability, cost, and visual appeal for Cold War and modern wargaming. I recently saw photos a friend shared of a 1/35 convention game set in "Saving Private Ryan" and knew that I'd have to do what I have been wanting to do.

I've got a zillion ideas, a decent collection of kits and figures, and I'd welcome any input or inspiration from Y'all.

More on my Blog:http://tankgurls.blogspot.com/2015/1...2000-gurl.html

[rcaf_777]

nice

[Jason Weiser]

Oh Anna NOOOOO!

(The following are the silly prejudices of a long time miniature wargamer who has done moderns since he was knee high to a VDV trooper)...

I do wish you had spoken to me first...

20mm is the one true scale

(A strong voice cries out, "No it is not! 28s are the new wave and the voice of the gaming proletariat, we shall purge the bourgeois 54mm from..(BLAM!))

(Jason puts away a pistol, having shot the offending voice...)

Now that we have solved that problem and I can continue...ahem...

(Another, meeker voice, sounding like a dead ringer for Droopy Dog, states "Um, excuse me sir, but 15mm is more popular than 20mm, it's a fact!" (BLAM, BLAM!))

(Jason puts aside a smoking double barrel shotgun)

Really, I could so do without these interruptions....

Anyhow, yes, 20mm is a grand, wonderful scale, and it is cheaper if you work with the plastics. (Glares in direction of the peanut gallery)...anyone else got anything to say to that?

"What about 6mm?"

6mm is for bedwetting pansies! (Jason pulls pin on M67, cries "frag out" and tosses the orb of hate in the general direction of the idiot who spoke up, then cowers behind a wall, waiting for the inevitable bang..the bang occurs, Jason looks up over the cover, shakes his head with satisfaction as to the result, then gets himself up and dusts himself off)

Now, where was I...ah yes, 20mm good, all other scales bad.

Now, go to this website, tell Matt I sent you..quickly, before any of the other buffoons show up!

http://www.elhiemfigures.com/

[Anna Elizabeth]

XD Jason, thank you.

I do have a couple of Elheim Ultra-modern packs. USMC and US Army patrol. I have one heck of a time painting camo in that scale, though.

I'm considering a force of Canadians in that scale, plus plastic Leopards and M113s.

But for T2K, I can get males, females, NATO, Russians, and virtually any vehicle in 1/35th.

I usually game in 28mm, and Empress make really nice moderns, but a M1A2 from Empress costs as much as a high-end 1/35th Dragon kit, and more than many Trumpeter and Hobby Boss kits.

[Jason Weiser]

Hmm,
I think then it is a case of what flavor of T2k are you inspired by? Version 1, 2, 2.2 or 2013?

I am a version 1 kind of guy, my stuff is strictly where the 80s never died and the 90s got all the toys that the 80s predicted NATO would have. US soldiers still wear PASGT, and M81 Woodland BDUs, rifles are a mix of M16A2 and A1, but you'll see steel pots and other gear as things go to hell. The Brits have DPM and SA-80, with L1A1 being issued as things go to hell (and the traffic wardens getting more than their fair share) You might even see some fellas wearing the old Mk 3 helmets. As for the Germans, they don't have enough Flecktarn or G11s to go around!

All the NATO vehicles are three tone, and the Soviet stuff is either Green (the majority) or the three tone tan/black/brown. All of the Ivans and most of his Warpac buddies are carrying AK-74, with AK-47 being a relic, and AKM being a slightly younger relic. RPG-7 is still common, but the disposable RPGs are beginning to supplant it.

Even if you're doing 2013, I would make a lot of the gear older than dirt. LBE that dates back to the disco era, rifles that have 1968 production dates...you get the idea....

[Anna Elizabeth]

I'm into version 1 myself. I tried to do the trousers on this woman like leftovers from Vietnam-era, and most of my figures are Desert Storm and earlier. I bought several Trumpeter M16A1 sets, and nothing more "advanced" than the Car-15. A couple of sets of ALICE-stowage,too.

For color schemes, I'm thinking much like the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide (504), with the improvised color schemes and such.

[Jason Weiser]

A lot of those schemes are based on the old MERDC schemes which were current ca1984. Though, they were not enforced Army wide at all (A lot of M1s and M2s were Forest Green for most of their career pre-3 tone NATO).

https://sites.google.com/site/merdccamo/home/merdcpic

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I was working on a 1/72 scale papercraft LAV-75 and another for an RDF/LT but I'll be damned if I can find the files. Oh well :P

[Anna Elizabeth]

@Jason - Cool, thank you! I'll keep the link handy.

@Rakete - Those sound cool. I love the RDF/LT, there is a 80s GI Joe toy that's almost a RDF. I'd love to see a 1/35 kit of either.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

Hmm,
I think then it is a case of what flavor of T2k are you inspired by? Version 1, 2, 2.2 or 2013?

I am a version 1 kind of guy, my stuff is strictly where the 80s never died and the 90s got all the toys that the 80s predicted NATO would have. US soldiers still wear PASGT, and M81 Woodland BDUs, rifles are a mix of M16A2 and A1, but you'll see steel pots and other gear as things go to hell. The Brits have DPM and SA-80, with L1A1 being issued as things go to hell (and the traffic wardens getting more than their fair share) You might even see some fellas wearing the old Mk 3 helmets. As for the Germans, they don't have enough Flecktarn or G11s to go around!

All the NATO vehicles are three tone, and the Soviet stuff is either Green (the majority) or the three tone tan/black/brown. All of the Ivans and most of his Warpac buddies are carrying AK-74, with AK-47 being a relic, and AKM being a slightly younger relic. RPG-7 is still common, but the disposable RPGs are beginning to supplant it.

Even if you're doing 2013, I would make a lot of the gear older than dirt. LBE that dates back to the disco era, rifles that have 1968 production dates...you get the idea....

I'm curious as to how you reconcile having M16A1's and M16A2's together. How does your supply system handle having large volumes of two different ammo types in the same caliber; or do you just use M193 Ball and give the M16A2's reduced range/accuracy? The M16A1 CANNOT use the SS109/M855 Ball round at all. The round's case neck is like 1/1000 of an inch too long. The very edge of the case "fire forms" into the leade (the part of the barrel where the bullet nose seats to the rifling) of the barrel throat, and causes MAJOR reliability issues in the M16A1 (like drive the expended M855 case out of the breech with a dowel rod issues). This is the reason the M16A1 was completely removed from Army service in 1992.

[Anna Elizabeth]

Well, for me - this is 2000, and the soldiers are mainly happy to have any weapon. If you notice, this girl has a M231 Port version propped up on the water can. The Dragon Models M16 set has 2 per box. It also has a couple of weapons that will make good M16EZs.

[Jason Weiser]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I 'm curious as to how you reconcile having M16A1's and M16A2's together. How does your supply system handle having large volumes of two different ammo types in the same caliber; or do you just use M193 Ball and give the M16A2's reduced range/accuracy? The M16A1 CANNOT use the SS109/M855 Ball round at all. The round's case neck is like 1/1000 of an inch too long. The very edge of the case "fire forms" into the leade (the part of the barrel where the bullet nose seats to the rifling) of the barrel throat, and causes MAJOR reliability issues in the M16A1 (like drive the expended M855 case out of the breech with a dowel rod issues). This is the reason the M16A1 was completely removed from Army service in 1992.

I figure there's mountains of M193 left, and a lot of the 855 has been shot off. Yes, wartime production, but the supply chain has gone to snot, so in many cases troops feel lucky to have ammo.

[ArmySGT.]

http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dark-futures

[Anna Elizabeth]

I still haven't seen one of those sets in person. I bought WF's British Firing Line from the Anglo-Zulu War and those minis are kind of lack-luster. The other problem in 1/56th/28mm is tanks and such are expensive and not all that nice.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I'm curious as to how you reconcile having M16A1's and M16A2's together. How does your supply system handle having large volumes of two different ammo types in the same caliber; or do you just use M193 Ball and give the M16A2's reduced range/accuracy? The M16A1 CANNOT use the SS109/M855 Ball round at all. The round's case neck is like 1/1000 of an inch too long. The very edge of the case "fire forms" into the leade (the part of the barrel where the bullet nose seats to the rifling) of the barrel throat, and causes MAJOR reliability issues in the M16A1 (like drive the expended M855 case out of the breech with a dowel rod issues). This is the reason the M16A1 was completely removed from Army service in 1992.

Th USAF and foreign aid meant Lake City cranked out M193 even to this day.
M193 and M80 ball are what employees can buy cheap for personal use once a year.

[Anna Elizabeth]

A question for Y'all: I was reading Raellus' excellent thread about supply, morale, and communications, and I was wondering if a recon unit, with motorbikes and horses would be a good choice to have a radio?

My Dragon "Light Infantry" kit looks like roughly Panama-era stuffs, and has a rack and a radio on the motorbike. I like Raellus' idea that you'd be lucky if 1-in-3 radios were still operable, so - would a motorbike unit keep it, or would they rely on their mobility to get reports back and save the radios for the CO?

I can see both sides of that, so guidance and opinions would be welcome.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I have contemplated jumping back in to build a 1/72 LAV-75 again and I think, should I decide to, I would buy an M113 (there was chassis commonality, one of the advantages pitched) and extensively use parts from it; but for the main hull I would likely carve something out of balsawood. It's a basic wedge shape, so work up from there, reusing the M113's roadwheels, rollers, tracks, cupola, commander's MG, the upper deck plating on the bow of the LAV, etc. A total kitbash. For the main gun I'd have to do some serious scratch-building but it's conceivable.

[Olefin]

was there ever a LAV-75 kit? thought I remember someone mentioning that there had been either a kit or a miniature that was made back in the 80's specifically because of the Twilight 2000's mention of it

[.45cultist]

I only remember 1/72 kits might have had something.

[Anna Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I have contemplated jumping back in to build a 1/72 LAV-75 again and I think, should I decide to, I would buy an M113 (there was chassis commonality, one of the advantages pitched) and extensively use parts from it; but for the main hull I would likely carve something out of balsawood. It's a basic wedge shape, so work up from there, reusing the M113's roadwheels, rollers, tracks, cupola, commander's MG, the upper deck plating on the bow of the LAV, etc. A total kitbash. For the main gun I'd have to do some serious scratch-building but it's conceivable.

That's a cool idea, and that wedge-shape wouldn't be too difficult to carve.

[kato13]

Scotia (medium quality 6mm) makes a LAV-75.

I have a full 39 unit battalion

Ive also swapped out a couple of extra guns I got from the new LAVIII mobile gun system to make our theoretical LAV-105.


I only buy from scotia if nobody else makes it, but here is the link to their main website.

http://www.scotiagrendel.com

[Adm.Lee]

I had no idea there were enough people kits available in 1/35 scale to consider wargaming with them. I used to build and paint Tamiya vehicles back in the day, and there were a few Vietnam-era mechanized infantry, I remember a set of 4 figures, none in combat poses?

I have a moderate collection of 20mm, some of the T2k metal figures, but mostly plastics from boxes. I use these for RPG sessions, but I have a desire to take on a skirmish game sometime soon.

Pardon if I missed this: what rules will you use? I'm still in love with the Stargrunt II rules from the 90s, and want to play them again.

[Anna Elizabeth]

Hey there, Adm. Lee. Oh, there are just loads of modern figures available in 1/35th now. Tamiya, Dragon, Trumpeter, and Masterbox in plastic, and Black Dog, Verlinden, Legend, and tons more in resin.

Y'know, I'm not sure yet which rules I'll use. I have Force on Force, which were designed for modern, but I might modify something from Bolt Action or one of the Two Fat Lardies systems.

I'm not certain how often I'll get to play in 1/35th, but just imagine how spectacular it would look at a convention.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Anna Elizabeth

A question for Y'all: I was reading Raellus' excellent thread about supply, morale, and communications, and I was wondering if a recon unit, with motorbikes and horses would be a good choice to have a radio?

My Dragon "Light Infantry" kit looks like roughly Panama-era stuffs, and has a rack and a radio on the motorbike. I like Raellus' idea that you'd be lucky if 1-in-3 radios were still operable, so - would a motorbike unit keep it, or would they rely on their mobility to get reports back and save the radios for the CO?

I can see both sides of that, so guidance and opinions would be welcome.

I think this is the kind of question that your local HQ is probably going to answer on a case by case but also day by day basis.

So we know a motorcycle/horse unit has superior range to anyone on foot and obviously this would increase the distance and thereby the time taken to deliver any info they find. How far do they have to deliver the info, is the intel gathered important enough that it needs to be delivered immediately, is their AO through rough terrain that will slow down a dispatch rider, is the dispatch rider going to take away more members of the recce unit to protect them on the trip back? But also, does the enemy have the ability to intercept radio comms, do you have codes to foil any listening attempts, would the loss of a radio potentially compromise security (short term and long term security), in the T2k world you have to also ask is the enemy operating the same radio sets as you? Are you doing reconnaissance in force or by stealth because stealthy units typically have drastically fewer members per unit and thus less firepower for protection?
These sorts of questions would need to be considered by the commanders so they can make a decision on the issue/non-issue of radios.

Personally, having first joined a recce unit when I was in the Aussie Army Reserve, I strongly believe that any recce unit should have a radio. My argument is that late information can be as bad as bad information. And that can get your troops killed.
Generally, recce units are considered to have a short lifespan because of the potential trouble they can get into - fast delivery of any info they gather might be necessary simply based on the fact that they may not survive long enough to deliver it in person.
Plus the near-real time delivery of info through radio comms means the commanders can re-task the recce unit or send assistance should the situation change or should the recce unit get into something they need help with.

Infantry units can and did operate without having radios at every level of command. In the 1940s & 1950s you'd be lucky to see radios distributed below Company level in Western forces let alone Eastern European forces.
I think it was the 1960s when radios started to filter down to Platoon level and it was the 1980s-90s where you started getting radios at Section/Squad level. Specific circumstances can change the need for radios at lower levels of Infantry command such as operating in close terrain (think Vietnam jungle and the way units were forced by terrain to operate without visual contact) but again that comes down to a case by case basis - if a large Infantry unit is operating in the wide open spaces of say Texas, visual comms can be just as effective as radio comms.
And without radio comms at every single level there's the plus that you stop the Donald Rumsfelds of the world micromanaging... sorry, that really should be "interfering with"... troops down to the Fire Team level.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I'm curious as to how you reconcile having M16A1's and M16A2's together. How does your supply system handle having large volumes of two different ammo types in the same caliber; or do you just use M193 Ball and give the M16A2's reduced range/accuracy? The M16A1 CANNOT use the SS109/M855 Ball round at all. The round's case neck is like 1/1000 of an inch too long. The very edge of the case "fire forms" into the leade (the part of the barrel where the bullet nose seats to the rifling) of the barrel throat, and causes MAJOR reliability issues in the M16A1 (like drive the expended M855 case out of the breech with a dowel rod issues). This is the reason the M16A1 was completely removed from Army service in 1992.

Um....... I was still issued and using an M16A1 in 1993 at White Sands Missile Range.

Also..... someone (cough cough S3) ordered M193 ball for an M4 range in 2005. I had to explain to some SFCs why not a single person was going to get expert and overall scores were going to drop for the company if we just "Shoot it anyway".

Fucking study guide promotion system.

[Anna Elizabeth]

Cynic, thank you. I think I will mount the radio on that motorbike.

I love the idea of 49th Armored's scouts using signal flags in TX and OK, I will have to show that.

Got 2 more figures primed today, I'll start painting tomorrow, hopefully.

[Ancestor]

Thank you, AE/BW, as I've been waiting for this thread since I bought "The US Army Vehicle Guide" at Clint's Comics, located at the famously (now post apocalyptic) dead mall Metcalf South in OP, KS, summer 1986!

I loved the section in the back of the guide about detailing and miniatures but none of my friends were into that so we kept the game pencil, paper, and dice. I instead applied the modeling skills for a huge school district competition in 8th grade. The topic "WW III". I basically ripped off both T2K and Sir General John Hackett's "The Third World War." Won the Grand Award!

Fast forward to 2015. I've successfully indoctrinated my sons to Version 4 D&D. They are very into video games (had them playing Civilization at age 8) and tabletop games such as Axis and Allies, etc., and thus visual. Plus, we shoot, camp, fish, watch Jericho, the Last Ship, and the Leftovers, and play one on one COD death matches. Thus, they are really interested in T2K (or, in our timeline, 2K30). BUT, the large map and miniatures are a requirement! So, any discussion of such things is most welcomed.

Plus, painting them puts me in touch with my inner 14 year old self...

[Ancestor]

[QUOTE=Anna Elizabeth;65436]

And so it begins, I've finished the first 1/35th conversion for my plan of T2K Skirmish Gaming. I know it sounds crazy, but 1/35 is a good compromise between availability, cost, and visual appeal for Cold War and modern wargaming. I recently saw photos a friend shared of a 1/35 convention game set in "Saving Private Ryan" and knew that I'd have to do what I have been wanting to do.

I've got a zillion ideas, a decent collection of kits and figures, and I'd welcome any input or inspiration from Y'all.

While your painting is awesome, I'm more intrigued by the following question...

"So, what's her story...?"

[Anna Elizabeth]

Thank you, Ancestor.

I've got two things in mind with her. The first idea, is she's a Texan, going into the Guard after the war started, trained to operate AFVs, and wearing "liberated" Soviet headgear because she drives a captured BMP, like in the Soviet Vehicle Guide.

The other, is that she's Polish, and has hooked up with a NATO unit after the 5th Infantry disintegrated.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Anna Elizabeth

A question for Y'all: I was reading Raellus' excellent thread about supply, morale, and communications, <snip>
I like Raellus' idea that you'd be lucky if 1-in-3 radios were still operable,

Hey Anna do you recall what thread this post was in? I can't remember it and it doesn't even sound vaguely familiar. I'm curious to read it because I tend to think that the odds of a working radio would be directly related to how it was employed.
For example, radios in armoured vehicles have a better chance of surviving (if the vehicle isn't destroyed) due to all the protection afforded by the vehicle. Infantry radios are likely to suffer a much higher attrition rate but given that some vehicle radios are basically infantry radios with some bits to adapt them to vehicles rather than something built into the vehicle, there's still the possibility that your odds could be better than 1-in-3 for infantry to have some radios.