Improvised Armor in T2K

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Title: The Inland Waterway: Supplemental Material for Red Star/Lone Star
Author: William H. Keith, Jr
Challenge Issue No27, pages 6 to 8 then continued on page 22.
Published: sometime around the end of 1986.

It would be a bit of luck to find a printed copy these days but if you have the spare dollars, Far Future Enterprises has PDF copies for purchase either individually through places like DrivethruRPG (and the price is discounted at the moment)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...Magazine-No-27
or on the 1st edition or 2nd edition CD-ROMs of T2k. FFE also offer a CD-ROM of all the Challenge mags.
http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html
The T2k disks cost US$35 each, the Challenge disk cost US$45

the pdf versions are very good ones - good scan quality

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's good news. In the early days, the scans on the disks had some problems, bad sizing, poor colour reproduction or just blanked out. To be clear, this mostly affected the Challenge articles and not the majority of the game books.
I don't think it was a problem with the actual scanning, I think it was from the digital transfer when burning to disk as at the time it was very much a case of FFE burning new CD-ROMS when they received orders (rather than having a bunch of them made and then sitting around waiting to be sold).

Both my T2k disks have this problem but I didn't really care too much about it as I have all the Challenge mags in dead tree format and I wanted to support FFE, not hassle them for refunds etc. etc.
However it would've been a real pain in the arse for anyone who wanted those articles because they didn't have the magazines. As it is now, I believe the problems are fixed on any disks sold by FFE but it's still good to hear from people who have bought the pdf versions.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

...if you have the spare dollars, Far Future Enterprises has PDF copies for purchase either individually through places like DrivethruRPG (and the price is discounted at the moment)

Also available by less...reputable means.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

That's good news. In the early days, the scans on the disks had some problems, bad sizing, poor colour reproduction or just blanked out. To be clear, this mostly affected the Challenge articles and not the majority of the game books.
I don't think it was a problem with the actual scanning, I think it was from the digital transfer when burning to disk as at the time it was very much a case of FFE burning new CD-ROMS when they received orders (rather than having a bunch of them made and then sitting around waiting to be sold).

Both my T2k disks have this problem but I didn't really care too much about it as I have all the Challenge mags in dead tree format and I wanted to support FFE, not hassle them for refunds etc. etc.
However it would've been a real pain in the arse for anyone who wanted those articles because they didn't have the magazines. As it is now, I believe the problems are fixed on any disks sold by FFE but it's still good to hear from people who have bought the pdf versions.

I have seen some stuff that was posted for free on various share sites that had very bad scan quality - the point you couldnt make out details on the maps, crooked pages, missing pages, you name it

so far from what I am seeing both FFE and the pdf's that you pay for dont have those issues -

and I am always suspicious that a "free" download may have a fun virus along for the ride

[Legbreaker]

So you've never heard of people sharing the PDFs they've bought then? Like anything digital, they're easy to copy and paste....

[Olefin]

Oh I have heard of that - I am talking about ones that were on free sites that look like older scans - the ones for sale and on the disks are very good ones and nice to be able to see the colors correctly for instance on the maps and the vehicle plates

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Sounds like FFE fixed those earlier problems then. I bought my T2k disks from FFE very soon after they announced them for sale (I got them probably 4-6 months after they went on sale).
I don't recall if the Dark Conspiracy CD-ROMs I bought from FFE have the same problem but that fact that I can't recall any leads me to believe that there probably weren't as many (or any at all).

[rcaf_777]

Mythbuster made phone book Armour

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Keep It Legal

We do not tolerate piracy or copyright infringement here. Do not post links to bit-torrents or other illegal content-sharing sites.

This conversation is veering into some pretty murky legal waters. Let's get back on topic.

[Sanjuro]

But at least it's veering into good-tempered murky legal waters! Actually FFE were great, I need to choose the next 4 discs to buy...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

But at least it's veering into good-tempered murky legal waters!

LOL. True, but still.

[Legbreaker]

Nobody will be posting any links to torrents here, but ignoring the fact they exist and are easy to find doesn't make them go away either.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Nobody will be posting any links to torrents here, but ignoring the fact they exist and are easy to find doesn't make them go away either.

Steering people in the direction of illegal bootlegs is not a whole lot better than downloading them and sharing them yourself. It's like, "I'm not dealing crack, I'm just telling people where to look for it." I guess there's no crime in that, but it's pretty darn shady nonetheless.

Please follow the spirit of the law, instead of parsing its letter.

[Tegyrius]

I'll put it more simply. Don't be a dick, and don't sanction or aid dickery. Discussions like this one make me want to stop writing for publication.

- C.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I'll put it more simply. Don't be a dick, and don't sanction or aid dickery. Discussions like this one make me want to stop writing for publication.

- C.

Your post, while understandably direct, is Offensive in nature and a direct personal attack to a member here.
Perhaps that is just my take.
I too have had more than one episode of copyright infringement, I am sure not so prevalent as yours, I have run a pewter casting company and made pewter products and reproductions up until five years ago and my work is easy to copy with the right tools I see it (the copies) for sale on E-bay and would love to discuss the matter with those listing the items.
Your work is much easier to duplicate now and a real problem to seek redress, I do not think that is justification to call anyone a dick head or other demeaning names on this site.
Before you reply that you did not direct that post towards anyone person in particular I would like to point out it seems that way to me and I am sure to a number of others as well.
I would have done this in the personal area but your post is public I therefore think it should be a public discussion.
Harry O

[Tegyrius]

Here, have some context:

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2531&page=2

Relevant discussion begins with post 38. You may wish to reference my brief analysis in post 60.

- C.

[LT. Ox]

Absolutely no argument with your position, nor do I think that supporting theft is acceptable and it is pure and simple theft to use copyrighted material without permission obtained by the rightful holder of that copyright.

As I said earlier I have lost a lot of revenue to people that cannot or will not have enough integrity to purchase material or ask to obtain it in a legal and respectful manner.
My Company was also me, myself and I, I researched historic items I carved and engraved masters, made models and molds and then cast cleaned and polished the products.
The most time consuming part is the research and model making as much as three hundred hours went into a piece. Then someone takes my work and puts it into a machine and two hours later is producing the item. Then sells it for fifty cents less. Yep it upsets me.
That is not the point Sir. What I object to is name calling on a site and where it can go.
I am sure your use of the Term, Dick, has a different meaning then it does to me, Generational for sure. If you referred to me with that term face to face I would be prone to punch you in the nose. (Not really I have grown out of that just last year.)
I hope you see my point. If not I am sorry if I have upset you or added to a touch situation.

[Legbreaker]

As I said, ignoring the existence of internet piracy and insulting people does not make the issue or files go away. They are a fact of life whether we like it or not and sticking ones head in the sand does nobody any good.
Those that pay for material, good on them. Those that don't, well, what can really be done about it in a practical sense? The internet and international law is complex and it would seem there are many, many skilled people more than willing to "break" any protections placed on written work (and all other forms of digital media).
Morally it may not be right (depending on culture), but it happens and will continue to happen for as long as humans exist.

It may be harsh, and I intend no insult, but "deal with it" seems to be about the only advice that can be given to authors and other creators, short of expensive and probably futile legal action (like I said, the internet is big, and international laws complex and incomplete).

Any author under the current situation really only has two choices - publish and risk being ripped off, or don't.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Hey fellas, how about we stop talking about this in this particular thread?
There's already been enough derailing (and yes I was one of the culprits).
If people want to discuss it, there's always PMs or an Off-Topic thread that can be started yeah?

Cheers

[LT. Ox]

Roger

[rcaf_777]

Here's a novel idea lets get back on the topic of the thread which is improvised armour

How about making armour using other items

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Here's a novel idea lets get back on the topic of the thread which is improvised armour

How about making armour using other items

Seems your bluntness didn't do the trick

This particular form of alternate armour has been mentioned before, it was seen on vehicles in the break up of Yugoslavia - thick rubber matting like that seen on conveyor belts. In fact conveyor belts are superior because they generally have fibre or metallic strands braided through the material for extra strength.

You could probably form a decent composite from steel plate, conveyor belt, hard wood planks and another layer of steel plate. The conveyor belt would give it a little bit of resistance in the same manner as ballistic fibres (as in they stretch somewhat to absorb some of the energy).

Even conveyor belt hanging as a skirt might have some value against solid projectiles and possibly even light anti-armour rockets. Being unsecured on one or more sides means the belt would flex wildly when struck and likely change the trajectory of the round along with reducing its energy.

[rcaf_777]

In the TV Show Mythbusters, they used phone books to amour up at car, while it did protection againsit some of the smaller rounds it was unable to deal with large caliber stuff and the weight made the car very slow

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Another thing I've seen done is a composite of ceramic tiles like those you use for tiling a bathroom, sheet steel, fibreglass cloth and rolls of duct-tape.

Bond the tiles to the sheet steel, add another layer of tiles to cover the gaps in the first layer, cover each side in a few layers of fibreglass cloth then bond it with fibreglass resin then wrap the whole thing in metres of duct-tape.

It's labour & resource intensive to make vehicle sized plates but a 1-2cm plate stops common pistol rounds and buckshot and severely slows down mid-calibre rifle rounds.

[aspqrz]

Sounds like all of this would be about as successful as the Soviet attempts to use improvised armour (not tanks) against the Finns at the beginning of the Winter War ... not very, in other words.

Counterproductive time wasting in fact - they would have been better off figuring out better tactics or deployments and not ordering human wave attacks!

Now, welding track links or stuff to MBT hulls or even scrap metal to Hummers is not quite as bad ... but, if you think about it, smacks of the same sort of sloppy thinking.

It's like what I remember reading about an assessment of US Army 'recon' in WW2 vs what everyone else did. Everyone else snuck around and actually sent people in on the sly (or tried to) to see what was in that copse of trees over thar yonder ... the US simply called in a divisional level artillery barrage and, voila, no trees (and no occupants, if any were there in the first place).

Or those officers (mostly) who act like anything with a track and a machinegun is a tank ... and find out sharpish that they aren't ... or who think that a Tank can make an unsupported cavalry charge, and find out that infantry support is a much better idea, usually too late for the tank crew (or the rest of the tank crew if they were the track commander).

If you're improvising armour then you're probably doing something wrong in the first place ... probably ...

Phil

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Another thing I've seen done is a composite of ceramic tiles like those you use for tiling a bathroom, sheet steel, fibreglass cloth and rolls of duct-tape.

Roof titles might work better

[rcaf_777]

Found this too

http://www.fortisarmour.com/products...armour_covert/

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Olefin

If you want to see improvised armor have you seen what Mexican druglords are doing in Mexico now as to making improvised "narco" tanks? Definitely something that someone could come up with in T2KU.

Brief articles on Mexican narco tanks. Low on detail, but the pictures are good. I suspect that like bank armored cars, the armor is helpful against small arms only.

Second article with a few notes. Most of the added detail you will have guessed from the first pictures. 2-in steel sides especially angled, would up the defensive value to something more like 6 or 7 - again, good vs small arms & LMGs.

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by unkated

Brief articles on Mexican narco tanks. Low on detail, but the pictures are good. I suspect that like bank armored cars, the armor is helpful against small arms only.

Second article with a few notes. Most of the added detail you will have guessed from the first pictures. 2-in steel sides especially angled, would up the defensive value to something more like 6 or 7 - again, good vs small arms & LMGs.

Uncle Ted

2 inch thick armor?! - hell thats better than the armor on most of equipment the Mexican Army uses - and your typical cop or narc agent isnt carrying around an RPG

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Olefin

2 inch thick armor?! - hell thats better than the armor on most of equipment the Mexican Army uses - and your typical cop or narc agent isnt carrying around an RPG

Well someone has used an RPG on one of the Narco-tanks. On page 70 there is an Image of what happens when a RPG hits the cab of one of these things.

Narco Armor PDF