Favorite Infantry-Portable Fire Support Weapon

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Need to move to the US - amazing what you can legally get your hands on in this country

But then I'd have to put up with *shudder* Americans!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But then I'd have to put up with *shudder* Americans!

Anyone up for a visit to Tasmania? Seems they need someone to deliver "Freedom" to their door step.

We are gonna free the shit out of you!

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Anyone up for a visit to Tasmania? Seems they need someone to deliver "Freedom" to their door step.

We are gonna free the shit out of you!

very silent giggle from an old man. erp oh crap and I farted too.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

very silent giggle from an old man. erp oh crap and I farted too.

Sure that was just a fart?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

very silent giggle from an old man. erp oh crap and I farted too.

The question is, how much clean underwear is in your dresser at this moment?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Anyone up for a visit to Tasmania? Seems they need someone to deliver "Freedom" to their door step.

We are gonna free the shit out of you!

I'm in...just let me dig out my old "Let me convert your mind or I'll burn your house down button."

[kcdusk]

Could an anti-air missile (Javelin) be used to shoot at a tank for example?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Could an anti-air missile (Javelin) be used to shoot at a tank for example?

Javelin is an ATGM. It can be used against low, slow-flying helicopters, at least in theory. Did you mean Blowpipe?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Javelin is an ATGM. It can be used against low, slow-flying helicopters, at least in theory. Did you mean Blowpipe?

I think he means the British Javelin AA guided missile from the 1980's.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Could an anti-air missile (Javelin) be used to shoot at a tank for example?

The British Blowpipe AA Missile uses a Manual Command Line of Sight targeting system (hereafter MCLOS) where the pilot "flys" the missile to a target using a "thumbstick control" (exactly like the old radio controlled cars & airplanes). This system COULD hit a tank if the operator can get his sight on it.

The British Javelin AA Missile uses a Semi-Automatic Command Line of Sight (hereafter SACLOS) guidance system where the operator just has to keep the target in his sights and the guidance computer will fly the missile to the target. This system would probably have the same chance of hitting a ground target as the MCLOS system because the computer can get "confused" by what it is "seeing" when the target is too close to the ground.

The British StarStreak AA Missile uses a SACLOS system that is a laser guided "beam-rider." The operator puts his sights on the target and designates it with a laser. The missile just follows the beam to the target.
This system WAS DESIGNED FROM THE START to be able to hit a ground target and it has proven that it can do just that.

I would make hitting a helicopter at NOE (nap-of-earth) ONE LEVEL HARDER than an AA target and a ground target TWO LEVELS harder from a dedicated MCLOS or SACLOS AA launcher. For the record, my hit probabilities With these three weapon systems are:

Blowpipe MCLOS: Difficult (0.5 X skill) for a snap shot.
Javelin SACLOS: Average (1 X skill) for a snap shot.
StarStreak SACLOS: Routine (1.5 X skill) for a snap shot.

[kcdusk]

Mmmm, i saw Javelin listed in the infantry heavy weapons guide as anti-air.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

At the time the book was written the only "Javelin" going by that name was, as mentioned by swaghauler, the British ManPADS (i.e. Man Portable Air Defence System). Since the 2000s, there is also the US ATGM known as Javelin but when GDW were writing the books, this system wasn't even a gleam in some weapon designer's eye, the nearest thing to it was the Tankbreaker.

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Mmmm, i saw Javelin listed in the infantry heavy weapons guide as anti-air.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

At the time the book was written the only "Javelin" going by that name was, as mentioned by swaghauler, the British ManPADS (i.e. Man Portable Air Defence System). Since the 2000s, there is also the US ATGM known as Javelin but when GDW were writing the books, this system wasn't even a gleam in some weapon designer's eye, the nearest thing to it was the Tankbreaker.

This. The FM-148 Javelin actually came out of the Tank Breaker program and was adopted in 1996. In a strange twist of fate, its competitor the SRAW was adopted by the Marine Corps in the 21st Century (2003?). Thus, both weapon systems were eventually adopted. The British Javelin AA Missile was adopted in the mid 1980's. I think it is unusual that the British continued to use "actively guided" SAMs after both the majority of NATO and The Warsaw Pact had adopted IR Guided "Fire-&-forget" man-portable SAMs like the SA-7 and the Stinger.

A good book on the subject is The Encyclopedia of World Military Weapons by Cresent Publishing (1988, ISBN 0-517-65341-9). It lists virtually all of the weapons in the Heavy Weapons Handbook along with their characteristics.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Cheers for the additional information swaghauler
In regards to the British going for active guidance rather than IR, I have a vague recollection that at the time of development, early generation IR guidance was still a little "generous" in what it considered a viable heat source. That is to say, I think the British considered that IR wasn't sufficiently reliable particularly with the use of IR decoy flares as a countermeasure so they preferred to use another method.
Keep in mind I'm going from memory here so I'm sorry to say, I can't recall much more than that at the moment

[swaghauler]

I think it would be cool to see the Forum's take on rules for guided missiles that use MCLOS (Manual Command Line of Sight) guidance where the user "flies" the missile with a controller, versus SACLOS (Semi-Automatic Command Line of Sight) where the user just keeps his sights on the target and the guidance computer makes all the corrections (reducing "human error") in the missile's flight path.

I know MCLOS has the following traits:

- They are usually wire or radio controlled (Pact uses radio control a great deal). The radio controlled versions can be jammed (ask the Israelis).
- They are VERY SLOW (about 100m per second) to allow for human reflexes to correct their flight.

- The missile launcher is connected to a separate CLU (Command-Launch Unit) by a cable and multiple missiles can be connected to one CLU BUT ONLY ONE CAN BE LAUNCHED AT A TIME.

- The Operator is more difficult to detect (Ave:Obs) because the missile can be separated by the up to 120 meters from the CLU (the actual distance varies from system to system). The only reason there is an Ave:Obs roll is because the missile will "juke" or make an obvious movement in order to be "gathered" by the CLU's optical sight. This can give away the CLU's location.

- The setup on these missiles preclude man-portable systems being used in the attack. They take too long to emplace. Vehicle mounts do not have this issue. MCLOS systems must be fired while stationary as movement will often throw off the gunner's aim.

- The operator is keeping track of the missile via a flare in the tail of the unit. Anything that blocks his vision will decrease his chance to hit.

MCLOS systems have been out of service since the 1970's in both the Warsaw Pact and NATO but do appear in a large number of third world armies.

SACLOS systems have the following traits:

- They can be Radio-guided, Wire-guided (including Fiber Optics), Laser-guided, and Radar-guided.

- Their speed varies by the guidance system and generation but generally conform to the speeds listed below.
wire guided: 200 to 250 meters per second.
fiber optic wire guided: 300 to 400 meters per second.
radio guided (AT): 300 meters per second.
radio guided: (AA): 400 meters per second to Mach 3.
laser guided: (AT): 400 to 600 meters per second.
laser guided (AA): Mach 1.5 to Mach 4+ (StarStreak)
radar guided (normally AA): Mach 1.5+

- The CLU is very close to the launcher (if not attached) because the computer makes corrections to the missile by comparing the difference between the CLU and the missile's current flight path. Except for select computerized AA fire controls, you may only fire ONE missile at a time from a SACLOS system.

- The SACLOS system is an Easy:Obs to detect because the CLU is NEVER far from the launcher (see above).

- These systems are fairly man-portable and can be used in an assault. Early generation radio-guided and wire-guided missiles must be fired while stationary. Any movement of the launcher can "confuse" the guidance computer which may result in a miss. Later generations of weapons (especially the laser-guided missiles) can be fired WHILE MOVING.

- Radio and radar-guided systems can be jammed. Most "optically tracked" SACLOS systems use IR tracking (with an IR tracking flare in the missile's tail) and are not affected by normal smoke. The Shorta system, Dual Spectrum Smoke (in common use since 1995) and WP WILL block the computer's ability to track the missile. IR systems can also be affected by IR jammers like the Air Force ALQ-157. Laser guided missiles Will also be affected by these but can also set off any warning devices on AFVs that detect laser rangers.

- Wire guided missiles can be affected by terrain, due to that terrain "snagging the control wire." I give light woods, and rubble a One Difficulty Level shift and heavy woods and rubble a Two Difficulty Level shift. I rule that The base Chance To Hit includes the chance of a bush or other object "snagging the wire" during firing (the Aim Action to double To Hit Difficulty is the operator basically taking any objects in the missile's flight path into account and adjusting for them). Laser-guided missiles experience a One Difficulty Level shift in heavy woods and heavy rubble (due to "interference" with the laser guidance beam).


SACLOS missiles are the most common battlefield missile.


I set my To Hit Difficulty Levels (for a snap shot) for missile systems based on generation and guidance type.

MCLOS Systems: DIFFICULT (0.5 X Skill)
Early Radio and Wire guided: AVERAGE (1 X Skill)
Advanced Radio and Wire (Fiber Optic) guided: ROUTINE (1.5 X Skill)
Basic Laser and Radar guided: ROUTINE (1.5 X Skill)
Multi-Spectrum Laser and Advanced Radar guided: EASY (2 X Skill)

Disclaimer: I have seen only ONE guided missile in real world action. A Copperhead 155mm Laser Guided AT Missile. The rest of this info comes from various reference sources. If anyone has anything else to add (or sees a flaw in my info) please feel free to jump in.

Swag;

[Raellus]

Based on the new responses on the Favorite APC/IFV thread, I thought a bit of thread necromancy might be in order.