Lists

[cosmicfish]

Does anyone have (or know of) canonical lists of teams, team types, and/or facilities for the Project?

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Does anyone have (or know of) canonical lists of teams, team types, and/or facilities for the Project?

I created this awhile ago (started in 1997); I believe it is correct

Added updated list a few replies below.

[ArmySGT.]

The Commo base from American Outback is missing from the list of bases.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The Commo base from American Outback is missing from the list of bases.

Thank you, I'll look thru the last couple of modules and see what I need to update it with.

[cosmicfish]

@nuke11, that is a great list, you saved me a lot of legwork (and perhaps the purchase of a book or two!). Now that we have that, let me expand the request a little:

Now that we have the canon list, are there any suggestions for teams or facilities that should be added or removed?

For example,

Power and water stations seem (to me) a bit of a waste. The Project needs to remain flexible, and putting power and water at fixed locations when you don't know where the populace will be and when Project assets already come with both seems like a big gamble. IIRC, TN-7 was in a ghost town... what are the odds that you have a significant refugee population in the desert?

Likewise, the psychological teams also seem like they would be a relatively low priority considering that years will have passed before you are able to help anyone. Considering that you have limited resources, do you really create teams for pysch help when they have more urgent need for water and food?

Conversely, small factories and machine shops would be HUGELY helpful. Above and beyond storehouses, the ability to go to a CNC mill and knock off replacement parts (perhaps for things not even in the Morrow inventory) would be very useful.

And Recon could use some genuine intelligence assets - perhaps the remains of the significant intel operation that must have existed prior to the war, trained specifically for those situations where you do not want to advertise yourselves as Morrow.

Any thoughts?

I am asking because I am trying to rebuild my idea of TMP, since my last version died unexpectedly with my hard drive earlier this year. As a GM I want a full view of the Project so that I can ensure that everything makes sense and so that I can improvise more easily. I am building a structure of the Project and want to make sure that I include everything that should (to me) be there and alter a few things that (again, to me) should not.

[cosmicfish]

Another example of "to be added": MARS EOD. There would have to be expectations of unexploded ordnance, abandoned mines, and improvised explosives, not to mention the unlikely but hugely serious issue of an unexploded nuke. It would make sense to have at least some teams trained and equipped to deal with them.

[nuke11]

Updated list with Fall Back and American Outback added.

Teams

K-98 (MARS: SK-5 Hover Craft)
K-97 (Science: Science 1)
G-23B (Recon: V-150 w/ 20mm)
UC-1C (C&C: Ranger MCP)
S-6 (Science: Science 1)
P-6C (Recon: Ranger APC)
P-7C (Recon: Ranger APC, 2 XR311)
P-10C (Recon: V-150 w/ 20mm)
L-1 (MARS: V-150 w/ TOW)
L-2 (MARS: SK-5 Hover Craft)
VB-1 (Special; Medical)
TP-9 (Special; Power Reception: Ranger APC)
FW-31 (Special; Frozen Watch: None)
FW-11(S) (Special; Frozen Watch Special: None)
D-5 (Special; Engineering: V-150 ARV)
LF-2 (Special; Engineering: V-150 ARV)
LF-3 (Special; Agricultural: Ranger APC)
QP-11 (Special; Psychological: None)
QD-40 (Special; Decontamination: Ranger APC)
F-17 (Recon: V-150 w/ 20mm)
G-9 (Recon: Commando Scout)
G-5 (Recon: V-150 APC)
G-12C (Recon: Ranger APC)
V-3 (Recon: Ranger APC)
H-9 (Recon: V-150 Mortar)
C-13 (MARS: V-150 w/ 20mm)
A-60 (Special; Agricultural: Ranger APC)

CT-13 Combined Team 'A'
A-1 (Science: Quequod Flying Science Laboratory)
A-2 (MARS: Albatroos Light Recon & Flying Dutchman MARS ACV)

Combined Group 'N'
N-1 (MARS: V-150 w/ 20mm)
N-2 (Recon: V-150 w/ TOW
N-3 (Science/ Service & Support: 2 Ranger APC)
N-4 (MARS: 4 FAVs)

Bases

Prime Base
Communications Base Kilo Alpha (Unmanned)
Communications Base Kilo Echo (Manned)
Medical Facility VF-1C
Delta Base (Unmanned Resupply Base)
Isle Royale (Manned Resupply Base)
Power Station TN-7
Water Station TN-6
Agriculture Base TA-14
 
Other

Landsat 01
Morrow Radio Net: 26 Repeater stations within the Morrow Radio Net, not including Prime Base. 8 are manned primary bases (Kilo Echo type), 4 unmanned stations attached to an MP facility and 1 is part of a power generation station. 13 stations are remote unmanned Kilo Alpha type stations.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Another example of "to be added": MARS EOD. There would have to be expectations of unexploded ordnance, abandoned mines, and improvised explosives, not to mention the unlikely but hugely serious issue of an unexploded nuke. It would make sense to have at least some teams trained and equipped to deal with them.

I don't think EOD needs to be a MARS team, just a specialty team, maybe with a V150 APC or Ranger APC.

I have been researching equipment for mine detecting recently for inclusion in an upcoming equipment list I'll post.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

@nuke11, that is a great list, you saved me a lot of legwork (and perhaps the purchase of a book or two!). Now that we have that, let me expand the request a little:

Now that we have the canon list, are there any suggestions for teams or facilities that should be added or removed?

For example,

Power and water stations seem (to me) a bit of a waste. The Project needs to remain flexible, and putting power and water at fixed locations when you don't know where the populace will be and when Project assets already come with both seems like a big gamble. IIRC, TN-7 was in a ghost town... what are the odds that you have a significant refugee population in the desert?

Likewise, the psychological teams also seem like they would be a relatively low priority considering that years will have passed before you are able to help anyone. Considering that you have limited resources, do you really create teams for pysch help when they have more urgent need for water and food?

Conversely, small factories and machine shops would be HUGELY helpful. Above and beyond storehouses, the ability to go to a CNC mill and knock off replacement parts (perhaps for things not even in the Morrow inventory) would be very useful.

And Recon could use some genuine intelligence assets - perhaps the remains of the significant intel operation that must have existed prior to the war, trained specifically for those situations where you do not want to advertise yourselves as Morrow.

Any thoughts?

I am asking because I am trying to rebuild my idea of TMP, since my last version died unexpectedly with my hard drive earlier this year. As a GM I want a full view of the Project so that I can ensure that everything makes sense and so that I can improvise more easily. I am building a structure of the Project and want to make sure that I include everything that should (to me) be there and alter a few things that (again, to me) should not.

The power and water stations TN-6/7 are south of Prime Base. It has been a few years since I have read Desert Search, so I'm not certain at this point if they are standalone or are attached to Prime Base thru underground means. Joseph Benedetto would be the best to discuss what his ideas where around there inclusion. He can be reached thru this forum (not sure if he actively watches this) or thru The Morrow Project Facebook page. He always tried to include a number of different support bases and ideas in his modules for TMP.

I never understood the psychological team inclusion. I haven't figure out a use for them at the moment outside of Prime Base or a Manned Resupply Base.

The problem with factories is what kinds of things will it make, where does the raw material come from and where are they placed? Most bases are placed out of the way of potential targets and population centers in the game.

I always thought broadcast power transmission from a source in orbit to ground station or ground base to ground base thru the air was an interesting concept to add. Power transmission thru the ground (think Nicola Tesla) was also an interesting concept to add.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by nuke11

The power and water stations TN-6/7 are south of Prime Base. It has been a few years since I have read Desert Search, so I'm not certain at this point if they are standalone or are attached to Prime Base thru underground means. Joseph Benedetto would be the best to discuss what his ideas where around there inclusion. He can be reached thru this forum (not sure if he actively watches this) or thru The Morrow Project Facebook page. He always tried to include a number of different support bases and ideas in his modules for TMP.

I don't recall any physical connection between the two stations and Prime Base, nor would one make sense. But I am not looking to analyze specific parts of the published modules, I am just looking for a general operating plan for the Project.

Originally Posted by nuke11

The problem with factories is what kinds of things will it make, where does the raw material come from and where are they placed? Most bases are placed out of the way of potential targets and population centers in the game.

Valid points. I would say that they would be initially equipped with raw material and would supplement it with material salvaged from ruined cities - I would imagine them having their own smelter, for example. As to the location, the same is true of everything in the Project. The initial positions will be inconvenient for the pre-war population and are a roll of the dice for the post-war population. But I am not envisioning huge factories churning out mass quantities of items, but rather small factories churning out Project replacement parts and the parts needed for non-Project factories to get started. Trips back and forth would not be tremendously frequent, and with the Project in full swing should not be either onerous or unreasonable.

Originally Posted by nuke11

I always thought broadcast power transmission from a source in orbit to ground station or ground base to ground base thru the air was an interesting concept to add. Power transmission thru the ground (think Nicola Tesla) was also an interesting concept to add.

Its an interesting concept but it has a heck of a lot of problems. If you do it in the RF you need HUGE arrays to make it work, if you do it in the optical the power densities can be absurd. It is interesting as a concept and may have some niche applications, but as a general solution to the power problem it leaves a lot to be desired.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by nuke11

I don't think EOD needs to be a MARS team, just a specialty team, maybe with a V150 APC or Ranger APC.

I have been researching equipment for mine detecting recently for inclusion in an upcoming equipment list I'll post.

I put them under MARS because it seems the military and police give them extra combat training over that of line troops and beat cops. I think the assumption is that some significant portion of the time they are going to be at risk of being attacked by whoever planted or controls the explosives.

Plus, I see this as an area where they are much more likely to have been recruited with the skills rather than trained by TMP, so if they are already going to have that military/police background you might as well acknowledge it and ensure that they can serve in a more general MARS role when there are no explosives to deal with.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Valid points. I would say that they would be initially equipped with raw material and would supplement it with material salvaged from ruined cities - I would imagine them having their own smelter, for example. As to the location, the same is true of everything in the Project. The initial positions will be inconvenient for the pre-war population and are a roll of the dice for the post-war population. But I am not envisioning huge factories churning out mass quantities of items, but rather small factories churning out Project replacement parts and the parts needed for non-Project factories to get started. Trips back and forth would not be tremendously frequent, and with the Project in full swing should not be either onerous or unreasonable.

Using salvaged materials 5 years after WWIII could be a problem as they will most likely be radioactive, but I guess that would really depend on which version of the game 3rd or 4th.

But this does seem to be a big missed thing in all versions of the game. They seem to be planning for 5 years but actually thinking 150 years when writing. 5 years on most things will be radioactive, materials, vehicles, soil, etc.

Delta Base in R-005 Starnaman Incident is to have most things that would be required by the project in that area, so I'm not thinking they will be making things they need to replace stuff in the project. Definitely making parts for machinery that is currently not working, to help the locals get going for sure.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I put them under MARS because it seems the military and police give them extra combat training over that of line troops and beat cops. I think the assumption is that some significant portion of the time they are going to be at risk of being attacked by whoever planted or controls the explosives.

Plus, I see this as an area where they are much more likely to have been recruited with the skills rather than trained by TMP, so if they are already going to have that military/police background you might as well acknowledge it and ensure that they can serve in a more general MARS role when there are no explosives to deal with.

When you put it that way, I can see MARS for EOD.

[Matt W]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I am asking because I am trying to rebuild my idea of TMP, since my last version died unexpectedly with my hard drive earlier this year. As a GM I want a full view of the Project so that I can ensure that everything makes sense and so that I can improvise more easily. I am building a structure of the Project and want to make sure that I include everything that should (to me) be there and alter a few things that (again, to me) should not.

It all depends what you're designing the Project FOR. If it wants to quickly rebuild a large area (rather than "survive" at Prime Base and expand in a generation or two) then you need more aircraft and possibly more boats/ships.

IMHO, the value of aircraft seems completely underestimated in Project planning. It's a bad idea to look for survivors by wandering around on the ground. It would seem far more efficient to have Recon overflights and then direct the Recon teams towards areas that appear to have some sort of functional government (and away from areas that glow in the dark).

There should be more airbases. Nothing huge. A couple of Shorts Skyvans, a few "utility" light planes and some helicopters would be adequate for each Region. If the Project needs to transport something bigger, they could use the C-130 at Prime Base

IMHO, the value of an expert is greatly enhanced if you can QUICKLY transport him/her to the area needed. Flying for a few hours is better than driving for a few days

We have a supply base at Isle Royale. Which is a nice idea. BUT...Where are the ships? And where are they going to dock and unload?

There should be teams that can set up Ports (inland or coastal)

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Using salvaged materials 5 years after WWIII could be a problem as they will most likely be radioactive, but I guess that would really depend on which version of the game 3rd or 4th.

But this does seem to be a big missed thing in all versions of the game. They seem to be planning for 5 years but actually thinking 150 years when writing. 5 years on most things will be radioactive, materials, vehicles, soil, etc.

I agree that there will be a lot of contaminated materials, but I still think that 5 years post-war there would be as much or more that is recoverable. Using the old rule of thumb that the radiation after a nuclear strike decays with a factor of ten as time increases with a factor of 7 (so at 7hrs you have 10% of the radiation as you did at 1hr), after 5 years you have less than 1/100,000 the radiation of the initial blast. I think the outskirts would have a lot that could be recovered.

Originally Posted by nuke11

Delta Base in R-005 Starnaman Incident is to have most things that would be required by the project in that area, so I'm not thinking they will be making things they need to replace stuff in the project. Definitely making parts for machinery that is currently not working, to help the locals get going for sure.

Delta Base has to have a finite quantity of stores, and it is not possible to accurately predict what you will need and in what quantity. They may well find (for example) that they need a lot more replacement wheels than they ever laid down in stores!

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Matt W

It all depends what you're designing the Project FOR. If it wants to quickly rebuild a large area (rather than "survive" at Prime Base and expand in a generation or two) then you need more aircraft and possibly more boats/ships.

IMHO, the value of aircraft seems completely underestimated in Project planning. It's a bad idea to look for survivors by wandering around on the ground. It would seem far more efficient to have Recon overflights and then direct the Recon teams towards areas that appear to have some sort of functional government (and away from areas that glow in the dark).

There should be more airbases. Nothing huge. A couple of Shorts Skyvans, a few "utility" light planes and some helicopters would be adequate for each Region. If the Project needs to transport something bigger, they could use the C-130 at Prime Base

IMHO, the value of an expert is greatly enhanced if you can QUICKLY transport him/her to the area needed. Flying for a few hours is better than driving for a few days

We have a supply base at Isle Royale. Which is a nice idea. BUT...Where are the ships? And where are they going to dock and unload?

There should be teams that can set up Ports (inland or coastal)

I agree wholeheartedly.

I break down the structure of the Project (roughly) as follows: 1 National command, with 7 Regional commands, each with 6 Area commands, each with 5 Groups. Groups are mobile, with no fixed facilities, Areas and up have permanent bases. I have already allotted a sea base to each Region (no National sea base) and permanent air bases at the Region and National levels.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by Matt W

We have a supply base at Isle Royale. Which is a nice idea. BUT...Where are the ships? And where are they going to dock and unload?

There should be teams that can set up Ports (inland or coastal)

I have drawn up a littoral support ship that my Project uses in small numbers around the CONUS. They are small, but are designed in such a way to provide water transportation, a mobile machine shop, a communications hub, a small medical facility and construction support with it's deck crane. It has a draft of only 6m, so it does not need large docking facilities and has a launch that has a draft of only 1.5m that can carry a single fully loaded 40' shipping container, a V-150 or similar sized cargo. The ship has a crew of 15 and bunks for 18 additional personnel. In an emergency, about 75 cots can be set up on the machine shop/cargo deck. Between containers on deck and items in the hold, it can carry about 2000 tons of cargo.

This ship is small enough to easily go through all the locks in the Great Lakes and St Lawrence Seaway system. It should also be able to navigate most of the major rivers in the US, allowing it to reach a great number of pre-war metropolitan areas. It's max speed is 22kt/40KPH, making it capable of sailing from San Diego, CA to Honolulu, HI in about 4.5 days. New York City to San Diego via the Panama Canal would take 9.5 days assuming the Canal is navigable, 14 day if they need to travel around Cape Horn.

This type of ship gives the Project the ability to move large amounts of cargo to most areas of the CONUS very quickly. Logically, there needs to be this kind of ship.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I have drawn up a littoral support ship

How do you store it for the 5 year plan were this can be launched and is not destroyed by salt water corrosion?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

How do you store it for the 5 year plan were this can be launched and is not destroyed by salt water corrosion?

I have a special dry dock in mind that I am still working on some logistics. Basically a special purpose bolt hole with lot of explosives to dig a short canal and a lock to raise the ship.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

How do you store it for the 5 year plan were this can be launched and is not destroyed by salt water corrosion?

This has been my biggest issue with ships. I was planning to keep the boats small enough to be handled by a small team with heavy equipment. But I would love to see a way to make mmartin798's plan work!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I have a special dry dock in mind that I am still working on some logistics. Basically a special purpose bolt hole with lot of explosives to dig a short canal and a lock to raise the ship.

OK..... Hmm the U.S. has a lot of inland canals and artificial lakes.......... So lets say the Council of Tomorrow (CoT) takes the long view and commissions some canals. Ones with a "plan" to create economic prosperity with ships not trains. This plan then "fails" because trains and the network of rail is more established and convenient. That is what the press release says.

Now in the process of canals, locks, dams, and reservoirs a few drydocks are constructed. These were all made to a largeish size before a ship design is finalized due to future technologies. An artificial bluff with some CoT building is constructed above the drydock. These drydocks are camouflaged with a rockface that is removed with explosives.... The positions and wires are installed, but the explosives and detonators will have to be removed from long term storage and assembled for this task. Once the rock face is fractured by explosives it will slough off into the reservoir in a void large enough to contain it. Doors are still in place and the dry dock is flooded in a controlled manner by the crew once the ship is ready. Hanging copper plates in the interior of the drydock space have a low voltage positive charge which attracts the negatively charged salt ions as one method of preventing salt corrosion.

The drydock can then be reused for any ships able to fit and worker can be housed in dormitories that can be constructed from stored materials on the bluff above and travel down to the drydock by stairs or elevator. These drydocks are reminiscent of hardened submarine pens.

[nuke11]

If you want boats for river, lake and inland sea operations, you might want to look at Gibbs Technology High Speed Amphibians: http://www.gibbssports.com/

They teamed up with Lockheed Martin to develop a concept amphibious combat craft. But it did not make it past the first phase of trials.

Interesting ideas that really has an interesting place in TMP.

If you want traditional boats the best is still truck and trailer to get them to and from a river / lake. Also are multi-wheeled flatbed haulers, TTS make a few of these as well and are used in Asian ship yards.