YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[Raellus]

I was just trying to make a case for the U.S.A. using conventional means to temporarily cripple Mexico's oil industry. I envision great American reluctance to use nukes vs. their southern neighbor, primarily because predominant weather patterns pretty much guarantee that much of the fallout will cross the border and further contaminate the U.S. If the Soviets do the nuking, it makes a bit more sense.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I was just trying to make a case for the U.S.A. using conventional means to temporarily cripple Mexico's oil industry. I envision great American reluctance to use nukes vs. their southern neighbor, primarily because predominant weather patterns pretty much guarantee that much of the fallout will cross the border and further contaminate the U.S. If the Soviets do the nuking, it makes a bit more sense.

Yeah it never made sense to me.

If I was the USSR, as far as nuking refineries, after European and Middle East Neutrals, Mexico would be first on my list. But if the Soviets nuked Mexico why would they work with Division Cuba.

This has bothered me for over 30 years now.

[Jason Weiser]

Ok,
I am one of those who thinks the Mexican invasion makes little sense, but if you want to use it..here is a way to do it that is 1.0 compatible?

Mexico in 1995 was a nation on the brink. One way led to a moderately successful future with a moderate-left PRI government that had done much to roll back some of the more costly social programs and diversify the economy, as well as make some very public arrests of both corrupt officials and some Narcotrafficantes.

But Mexico's other way led to ruin, as her economy was still for the most part, based on the petrochemical riches she drew for the main basis of her economy. She was a victim of world-wide commodity prices, and in early 1996, with OPEC deciding it would not institute any price caps for oil production that year (this was a backhanded attempt to help China hold off the Soviets, and contributed to a worldwide drop in oil prices), Mexico's economy simply cratered. The price of tortillas, which was always a guide to how healthy the Mexican economy was, tripled in a space of 6 months, with other staples rising accordingly, as imports paid for by increasingly depressed Pesos became harder to come by (the war expanding to a world war in November made this even harder, as most of Mexico's trading partners were now belligerents). By January 1997, Mexico was on the verge of revolution.

On the night of February 19th, 1997, a strange mixture of Marxist PPS politicians, military officers, and students (who provided most of the muscle) overthrew the PRI government and instituted a "Government of National Salvation." While the government instituted a number of Marxist policies, not the least of which was a doubling down of government subsidization of the economy it could not afford (and increasing the inflation of the Peso to near worthlessness), it studiously avoided any outward alliance with the Soviet Union and instead, formed a quiet alliance with neutral Cuba, bringing in Cuban medical and technical teams in an effort to help stave off the oncoming economic ruin. This allowed Mexico to embrace Marxism, while avoiding being in the crosshairs of the United States, at least, until 1998.

Most of the Mexican oil industry was hit by Soviet nuclear weapons for two reasons, first was the fear the US might seize the facilities for themselves (the US had no such means left to do so, but the Soviets didn't believe that) and two, as a backhanded way of punishing Mexico for not joining the "internationalist cause". (To be fair, the PPS at the time were more euro-communist in outlook, than doctrinaire Marxist-Leninist, and some were even more in favor of the Chinese Communists, and as such detested the Soviets for their actions in China).

Mexico, barely under control domestically with the strains of an economy held together with baling wire and good intentions, snapped under the strain. 8 revolutions took place before a radical faction of the PPS (which was more nationalistic to the point of chauvinistic in it's views) took control. Fearing they would be the victims of a 9th revolution, and looking for a means to unify the country, they did what shaky radical regimes have done throughout history, they looked for a short, victorious war. And the actions of the United States, vis a vis Mexican refugees, gave them the perfect excuse. And with the arrival of Division Cuba, it seemed the Mexicans could not lose...at least that's what the politicians in Mexico City thought at the time.

[Raellus]

So, I noticed something curious, and more than a little illogical, but it gave me an epiphany.

Canon (Howling Wilderness AND the BYOB, v.2.2) has oil refineries in El Paso hit by a .25MT nuclear warhead. AFAIK, no date for the strike is given, but one assumes it took place sometime in 1997.

The Mexicans invade the U.S.A. in 1998.

Canon has the School Brigade located at Ft. Bliss, in El Paso, when the invasion begins.

Why would the SB stay in El Paso after it had been hit by a nuclear warhead? Ft. Bliss is only about 3 miles from the only refineries in El Paso. Using NUKEMAP, Ft. Bliss would be within the thermal radiation radius of a 25MT device detonating on the refinery. It doesn't make much sense, unless...

What if the refineries in El Paso were the target, but ground zero was actually in Ciudad Juarez, just on the other side of the border? Some Soviet nukes were notoriously inaccurate. CJ is very close to El Paso- the two cities basically one contiguous city straddling the border. But, a strike in S. Ciudad Juarez would be far enough away that Ft. Bliss wouldn't be damaged.

So, Mexican refugees flood across the border and the U.S., fearful of Soviet infiltrators among the throngs, takes a heavy hand. Mexico, blaming the U.S. for the nuclear destruction of part of Ciudad Juarez (even knowing that the Soviets were responsible- the reasoning would be, "if you weren't standing so close to me, I might not have been shot"), and alarmed at the harsh treatment of its citizens crossing the border, Mexico prepares to invade the U.S.A.

It ain't perfect, but it makes sense to me. Thoughts?

[Olefin]

The Soviets didnt even have a 25MT warhead - and why would you use a 25MT warhead to take out just a refinery - plus I think the use of such big warheads would have been way beyond what was considered a limited strike - a 25 MT warhead would have destroyed most of the city and the base

I am thinking we are looking more at a 250kt weapon and not 25MT - that could explain the survival of the base- along with the nuke detonating to the south of the refinery where it still takes it out but not the base along with it

[.45cultist]

I grafted the T2013 section here, The U.S. invading for Mexico's Industry and oil makes more sense. Even Division Cuba couldn't elevate a third tier internal defense structured army. I even threw in covert support from China.

[swaghauler]

As is typical for me, I completely changed the US-Mexican relationship by making Mexico become a Narco-Puppet state in 1995. The Cartels took over the country (through rigged elections) and then began buying loads of Russian tech in exchange for drug money (Russia DESPERATELY needed hard currency and the Cartels need weapons) to keep US backed rebels at bay. Russia then sends "Division Cuba" to train the Cartel's "Mexican Army" in order to stand up to the US. After war breaks out, the US takes control of several Mexican oil platforms, triggering the Second US-Mexican War. As things begin to deteriorate, the US nukes Mexico to keep her resources out of her Russian "benefactor's" hands. This how I justify the war.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

I grafted the T2013 section here, The U.S. invading for Mexico's Industry and oil makes more sense. Even Division Cuba couldn't elevate a third tier internal defense structured army. I even threw in covert support from China.

Invading for Mexico's oil would have problems. In the 90s, half of their production came from the Cantarell field in the Gulf of Mexico off Campeche (the southwestern part of the Yucatan). The next most important field is the Golden Lane, across the Gulf of Mexico from the Yucatan. The largest reserves are in Chicontepec, but they're technically unfeasible to exploit (even now). That's near Mexico City. The oil fields are pretty much all in the south of Mexico, either on land or in the coastal waters, so an invasion from the north will have to drive through the entire country to reach the fields.

Industry I know less about, other than that (in our timeline) it spiked from the mid-90s (when American demand increased) until around 2000 (when China undercut Mexican labor costs). I don't know if the same spike would have happened in the T2K timeline.

[mpipes]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The Soviets didnt even have a 25MT warhead - and why would you use a 25MT warhead to take out just a refinery - plus I think the use of such big warheads would have been way beyond what was considered a limited strike - a 25 MT warhead would have destroyed most of the city and the base

I am thinking we are looking more at a 250kt weapon and not 25MT - that could explain the survival of the base- along with the nuke detonating to the south of the refinery where it still takes it out but not the base along with it

The SS-18 Mod3 carried a single 25Mt RV. We believed it was intended for NORAD HQ at Cheyenne Mountain and other super hardened sites.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Invading for Mexico's oil would have problems. In the 90s, half of their production came from the Cantarell field in the Gulf of Mexico off Campeche (the southwestern part of the Yucatan). The next most important field is the Golden Lane, across the Gulf of Mexico from the Yucatan. The largest reserves are in Chicontepec, but they're technically unfeasible to exploit (even now). That's near Mexico City. The oil fields are pretty much all in the south of Mexico, either on land or in the coastal waters, so an invasion from the north will have to drive through the entire country to reach the fields.

Industry I know less about, other than that (in our timeline) it spiked from the mid-90s (when American demand increased) until around 2000 (when China undercut Mexican labor costs). I don't know if the same spike would have happened in the T2K timeline.

Yes it has problems too, what if one has one of the factions ask for aid, another asks the Soviets and that leads to the invasion?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by mpipes

The SS-18 Mod3 carried a single 25Mt RV. We believed it was intended for NORAD HQ at Cheyenne Mountain and other super hardened sites.

actually I was right - its a .25MT not a 25MT - Raellus had both in his post

but he is right about where it had to hit - the only way that Fort Bliss is spared is if the warhead goes off over Ciudad Juarez and misses to the south, still taking out the refinery with the thermal pulse but leaving Fort Bliss intact

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

actually I was right - its a .25MT not a 25MT - Raellus had both in his post

but he is right about where it had to hit - the only way that Fort Bliss is spared is if the warhead goes off over Ciudad Juarez and misses to the south, still taking out the refinery with the thermal pulse but leaving Fort Bliss intact

Looking at NUKEMAP, a direct hit on the refinery will put the HQ of Fort Bliss on the edge of the radius for broken windows from a 25kT warhead, with a 50 percent chance of first-degree burns up to the middle of the cemetery. Most of Biggs Army Airfield would be outside of all effect radii (a tiny portion of the airfield is within the "slight chance of first-degree burn" radius), as would the vast ranges up to the border and into New Mexico (recall that Fort Bliss has the largest maneuver area of any base, at 992,000 acres, and is the second-largest facility overall, with only the adjacent White Sands being bigger). If it misses by a mile to the east or south, the base would be pretty much completely unscathed, and in any case the ranges will be undamaged.

[Olefin]

FYI the new stuff I am working on is a possible trilogy looking at events in the summer of 2001 in California, Arizona and New Mexico as Milgov forces and the weather changes both begin to take their toll on the Mexican forces in those states - which was never really looked at by the original writers as they stopped the timeline in the US basically in mid-April

I plan to address one of the big issues in the post T2K canon - the idea of the Mexican occupation of areas on CA north of San Diego - which considering basically all the water for those areas comes from the US and from areas under Milgov control would make almost impossible - especially as there is no electricity to run the pumps that move that water over the top of mountains

[Olefin]

One of the big things I saw as completely unrealistic in the 2300AD timeline is Mexico not only keeping Texas for close to a hundred years after the war but also most of the American Southwest as well - even to the point of the US not assisting the California rebels to win their fight against Mexico.

There is no way that the US, by a hundred years plus after the war, isnt rebuilt to where it could easily beat Mexico in a war. Plus to add to that almost the entire area they took in Arizona and California is totally dependent on water from areas the US still has. There is no way you get Mexico keeping Los Angeles and Phoenix going without water from the Colorado or pumped from the north of California - certainly not as cities numbering in the multiple of millions.

That was a serious miss by the writers and one that really needs to be corrected.

Let alone the US allows Mexico to conquer all of Central America and Cuba long after the war? Sorry but not going to happen. Especially not Cuba - by that time the US has long built up again - and you are not going to see them let Mexico conquer Cuba and be able to possibly shut off access to the Gulf of Mexico.

And by then in the timeline the US was back in space as well - showing they are not some weakling of a country that Mexico could push around with ease.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

One of the big things I saw as completely unrealistic in the 2300AD timeline is Mexico not only keeping Texas for close to a hundred years after the war but also most of the American Southwest as well - even to the point of the US not assisting the California rebels to win their fight against Mexico.

There is no way that the US, by a hundred years plus after the war, isnt rebuilt to where it could easily beat Mexico in a war. Plus to add to that almost the entire area they took in Arizona and California is totally dependent on water from areas the US still has. There is no way you get Mexico keeping Los Angeles and Phoenix going without water from the Colorado or pumped from the north of California - certainly not as cities numbering in the multiple of millions.

That was a serious miss by the writers and one that really needs to be corrected.

Let alone the US allows Mexico to conquer all of Central America and Cuba long after the war? Sorry but not going to happen. Especially not Cuba - by that time the US has long built up again - and you are not going to see them let Mexico conquer Cuba and be able to possibly shut off access to the Gulf of Mexico.

And by then in the timeline the US was back in space as well - showing they are not some weakling of a country that Mexico could push around with ease.

The Mexican invasion of the American southwest was I think one of the great escapes from realties in the Twilight War. I can see why GDW included it and the Mexicans could pull of an invasion in the scenario were the US is heavily damaged from nuclear attack. But invading the entire southwest and then holding and keeping it are two completely different things. Once US regular forces turn up after the Mexican invasion then its game over. The Mexicans are not well equipped enough to take on veteran US forces even with the Soviet Cuba Division helping them. Also the US civil population is as well armed as your average Mexican soldier.

Even if this was not the case once the rest of the US gets back on its feet then they are going to want their territory back, and without outside help (aka the French) the Mexicans wont be able to hold the southwest for long.

There are some alternative versions of 2300AD which place Cuba outside of Mexican control. Ben Levy's site even has Cuba as a US state. I think Puerto Rico is also now a US state in some versions. I've seen another scenario which has America retaking control of the southwest fairly quickly after Texas wins its independence from Mexico, and then invading and incorporating the whole of Baja California into the US.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

The Mexican invasion of the American southwest was I think one of the great escapes from realties in the Twilight War. I can see why GDW included it and the Mexicans could pull of an invasion in the scenario were the US is heavily damaged from nuclear attack. But invading the entire southwest and then holding and keeping it are two completely different things. Once US regular forces turn up after the Mexican invasion then its game over. The Mexicans are not well equipped enough to take on veteran US forces even with the Soviet Cuba Division helping them. Also the US civil population is as well armed as your average Mexican soldier.

Even if this was not the case once the rest of the US gets back on its feet then they are going to want their territory back, and without outside help (aka the French) the Mexicans wont be able to hold the southwest for long.

There are some alternative versions of 2300AD which place Cuba outside of Mexican control. Ben Levy's site even has Cuba as a US state. I think Puerto Rico is also now a US state in some versions. I've seen another scenario which has America retaking control of the southwest fairly quickly after Texas wins its independence from Mexico, and then invading and incorporating the whole of Baja California into the US.

Just the fact that most of the water going to Southern CA comes from water pumped over the mountains from areas under US control means Mexico could never hold that whole area. If you really want to stretch it if they can keep control of the Yuma area they could keep the water flowing (it moves by gravity) to San Diego and the Imperial Valley. Other than that once the US cuts off the water thats the end of the Mexican occupation of any sizeable area.

And I dont see France supporting a country occupying parts of the US no matter what - thats pretty much an act of war that the US would not have forgotten. No way does the US help the French at all in the Kafer War. They would have let the French spin in the wind after that.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Just the fact that most of the water going to Southern CA comes from water pumped over the mountains from areas under US control means Mexico could never hold that whole area. If you really want to stretch it if they can keep control of the Yuma area they could keep the water flowing (it moves by gravity) to San Diego and the Imperial Valley. Other than that once the US cuts off the water thats the end of the Mexican occupation of any sizeable area.

And I dont see France supporting a country occupying parts of the US no matter what - thats pretty much an act of war that the US would not have forgotten. No way does the US help the French at all in the Kafer War. They would have let the French spin in the wind after that.

The French didn't, but the only way that Mexico could keep control of the American southwest after the Twilight War would be if they did support Mexico.

[Olefin]

Its one of the things I am writing new modules about - to correct the situation in the Southwest and California to show a more realistic summer to early fall of 2001 that shows the US taking back some territory and the Mexicans having to fall back due to logistics and drought conditions taking their toll on their ability to hold ground - as well as having the Civil War sap any chance they have of reinforcing their people on the ground

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Before people get much hotter under the collar and hopefully to curtail further claims that the GDW writers missed the mark/didn't know what they were talking about/screwed up/etc. etc. about certain aspects, it's well worth remembering that the entire Twilight history was a backstory to the history they created for 2300AD. Specifically the "Great Game" that they played out to decide how the 2300AD world came about. The Twilight:2000 game grew from that backstory.

If it appears that they missed the mark on something it's more likely to be because they were writing in the details that they created from the Great Game and less likely that they were trying to create a real world flow of events for WW3.
I'm not saying that their events list is "right" and I'm not even saying it's "good" but it is a product of it being retroactively created to make a second game from an existing game.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Before people get much hotter under the collar and hopefully to curtail further claims that the GDW writers missed the mark/didn't know what they were talking about/screwed up/etc. etc. about certain aspects, it's well worth remembering that the entire Twilight history was a backstory to the history they created for 2300AD. Specifically the "Great Game" that they played out to decide how the 2300AD world came about. The Twilight:2000 game grew from that backstory.

If it appears that they missed the mark on something it's more likely to be because they were writing in the details that they created from the Great Game and less likely that they were trying to create a real world flow of events for WW3.
I'm not saying that their events list is "right" and I'm not even saying it's "good" but it is a product of it being retroactively created to make a second game from an existing game.

There have been similar questions/criticism's of the backstory history made on the 2300AD forums.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by RN7

There have been similar questions/criticism's of the backstory history made on the 2300AD forums.

Yeah, I've seen some of the critiques and for what it's worth, I do not disagree. I just find it a little irritating that the game designers get slagged off for getting something "wrong" when it's entirely likely they were not actually intending to get it "right" in any real world sense, in the first place. That seems to get forgotten in the rush to "correct" their "mistakes".

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Yeah, I've seen some of the critiques and for what it's worth, I do not disagree. I just find it a little irritating that the game designers get slagged off for getting something "wrong" when it's entirely likely they were not actually intending to get it "right" in any real world sense, in the first place. That seems to get forgotten in the rush to "correct" their "mistakes".

Wrong is a VERY loaded term that I don't think I have ever used in this context and I would discourage others from using it as well.

For me objections to the T2k canon can be based on real world facts far more than other games as it is actually based on the real world. If the Greyhawk backstory had a reference to a river's flow being reversed by an actual God it is hard to say it is wrong. If T2k said a nuclear strike made the Mississippi River flow north we can ask with much more vigor , "How?". And attempt to look deeper.

I have been thinking about this game for 33 years. I try really hard to make canon work. The equipment for the 8th Mech from the Eastern Europe sourcebook is REALLY stretching logic for 1000 people to handle (Given they now have to cover every element of logistics). So i make the back story they had 4000 but lost over 2500 to both combat and the flu (possibly bioweapon). This paralyzes them with more equipment than they could possibly move. This is nowhere in canon but it works for me. Others could strip equipment or add more men or simply ignore the logical problems with such a small group having so much. There is no "right" answer.

Even with the original design team and our group's followup thought and effort, I am sure everyone of us comes across some facts from the backstory where we go. "Hold on a second, what happened???" For some it is 1% for others it is maybe 25% plus.

Most often the biggest objections come from our own personal areas of knowledge and expertise (One of the reasons i replace RESET in Krakow). That is why I encourage discussion here, I know a lot about many things, but no one person knows everything and some people have details or opinion I would have never thought of or been able to research.

Of my tweaks to my timeline and my adjustments to canon probably over 75% came from others sharing. Often an idea I had for 20 years gets replaced with something I read here (or other T2k sources) that simply makes more sense to me. Doesn't make canon wrong, or my prior thoughts wrong, just shows things can evolve. Especially as more information and opinions come to light.

As always I am worried about canon wars here so I feel the need to drop in once in a while and try to keep things cool.

I personally still like the idea of canon 1.5 for all new stuff based on updating V 1.0 with new information. It was suggested for the DC group stuff but things got so bitter then it never really took of.

People seem to respect "oh you are V2? I do V1 as my players like the cold war aspect, but hey the game is still 85% the same and maybe 5000 people still play so lets be bros". I really hoped that 1.5 could have been the same but Arch Duke Ferdinand was already long dead and the trenches were already dug.

Perhaps in any movement forward words like "not canon", "wrong", "incorrect" and "replace" would be lessened and "different version", "alternate", "updated" and "enhanced" used. This small change might make any Us vs. Them mentality a little less strong.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And I pretty much agree with all you've said here Kato, I am complete agreement that canon material suffers from problems, misunderstandings, lack of knowledge and contradictions, some minor, some glaringly bad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in having your own opinion on how the game history could, would or should have gone down and there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to change it to make it more suited to your game group or to your own tastes or to your own beliefs.
As mentioned, I just get a little irked when the efforts of the original designers are belittled by people who have their own opinions about how it would really have happened when it seems they never stop to consider what the original design goals were.

The original designers were not striving for a perfect simulation of WW3, they were retroactively creating the history from the basis of another game. They did this so that they could create a military style game without constraining the PCs to total military control, they were trying to make a game where the PC group could go off on adventures like other RPGs and were also trying to make a game world that would still have the opportunities for adventure once the PCs left Europe for North America.
They weren't trying to create a game where the players play out the Cold War of NATO versus WTO in a fight to the death. They already had boardgames for that.
Given those three known concepts, I find criticizing the lack of realism misses the point of what they were creating.

I do not particularly advocate for changing people's use of words to convey their beliefs however. If someone feels that a particular aspect is bad or even wrong, there is nothing wrong or incorrect in that, I just find the statements that the GDW designers dropped the ball misses the point of what they were trying to achieve and by inference even feels like a bit of an insult towards them.

[Olefin]

And now we have a chance to finally correct that canon with the ability to issue new modules and sourcebooks. And we can correct many of the mistakes that were made not by wholesale changes but by making tweaks here and there.

And frankly correcting the 2300AD timeline as it pertains to the US and Mexico isnt going to disrupt that timeline in any huge way. Mexico is a VERY MINOR player in that timeline - and I suspect that moving the border between then two back to a more realistic location would in no way suddenly disrupt the game to the point that players throw their hands up and never play it again.

GDW's original authors made a lot of mistakes - that's pretty obvious (i.e having the Corpus Christi sink the freighter bringing the Cubans home in Gateway to the Spanish Main when other modules clearly have that sub in the hands of the UBF by that time jumps right up in my mind). And one of the biggest is the US leaving the Southwest , half of CA and Texas in Mexican hands - with dates saying that they annexed those areas long after the T2K war dates - and then saying that they would not have supported the rebels in CA when they rose against the Mexicans?

Sorry but no way in heck - and that needs to be fixed. Not explained away as "well no one expects a perfect game". No but a game needs to be believable as well - and there is no way the US goes out to conquer the stars and leaves a huge amount of its country under Mexican rule for THREE CENTURIES

that is one thing I will be working on with my new modules by the way - to enhance and in some ways correct canon - just as I did in the East African Sourcebook with the 2nd Armored Division - and I am thinking of looking at what happened to the units that came home after Omega as well

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

Perhaps in any movement forward words like "not canon", "wrong", "incorrect" and "replace" would be lessened and "different version", "alternate", "updated" and "enhanced" used. This small change might make any Us vs. Them mentality a little less strong.

SSC, I share many of your sentiments. Kato, I agree with you on all counts. We're really quite spoiled, compared to the original T2K writers, with our easy access to information on the interwebs. We also have the luxury of time. Many of use have had 30+ to parse the published materials- plenty of time to find "mistakes" and mull over potential "fixes". The original authors had neither the web, nor a tiny fraction of that time (in fact, they were under deadline pressures), while they were creating their modules and sourcebooks.

Anyway, I really do think we should cut the creators some more slack. They did the best they could with the resources they had and they still managed to create something great (if they didn't, we wouldn't still be talking about it).

Olefin, has Marc Miller explicitly assented to "corrections" of material published in T2K canon? Is your approach a RETCON of HW or creating events by which HW can be reversed? In my mind, the former would create a dangerous precedent, whereas the latter gives ref's/players a powerful way to influence events in the game world.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

We're really quite spoiled, compared to the original T2K writers, with our easy access to information on the interwebs.

At least once a month I try to do something the old ways. With paper and books and legwork.

Like yesterday my sister wanted to know how far away her sister in law's family was from the California Wild fires. I listened to the nightly news for reports on where the fires were and mapped them out on a road atlas and figured she was about 60 miles from the nearest fire. Had to wait for information and draw on acetate sheets and use a ruler, but I got it done.

Post North Korean EMP attack I will still be able to function for odd research projects

I probably Could have done the same on the internet in about 45 seconds, but once in a while it is good to see just how far we have come.

[Olefin]

"Olefin, has Marc Miller explicitly assented to "corrections" of material published in T2K canon? Is your approach a RETCON of HW or creating events by which HW can be reversed? In my mind, the former would create a dangerous precedent, whereas the latter gives ref's/players a powerful way to influence events in the game world."

To answer you Raellus the answer is yes - but those corrections have to be run past him and approved. Can you or I or any other potential author just rewrite things whole hog - no. He made that clear to me when I proposed a rewrite of City of Angels and the UK Survival Guide to make them more realistic (i.e. actual gangs that were in LA instead of the cartoon figures that are in City of Angels for instance)

So for instance moving the 2nd Armored Division to Kenya as I did in the East Africa Sourcebook was run past him and is now canon - i.e. that is where they went after Omega in the canon- which he approved. Same with the nuclear attacks that happened in Africa as I depicted.

As he told me the canon was is open to interpretation and in some ways correction - but again as he said "in some ways". Thus HW as it stands to late April of 2001 is pretty much set in stone. However he is open to re-interpretation of events after that date.

And he has stated elsewhere that changes to the 2300AD timeline, as long as they dont change it too much, are possible as well. And if I remember right with the various changes to the 2300AD timeline I am not sure if it is still linked to the Twilight 2000 game per se - i.e. V1 was directly linked to 2300AD - but now I am not so sure

[.45cultist]

An ill-advised Mexican invasion, a U.S. counter offensive pushing into north Mexico and a broad swath of the SW in chaos, City of Angels Mexican army forces are a multinational brigand force. Division Cuba are actually Cubans from Africa or Middle East with Venezuelan and Chinese mixed in. The Oakland Flu stops most military action like the Spanish Flu of WWI. A mish-mash of V1/2 and T2013 items shoe horned together. Any incorrect things or imperfections add to the impression of fevered rumors and lack of fact
s, news.

[Olefin]

I am actually coming up with a very logical explanation that details how the Mexicans got Russian equipment in City of Angels and also explains what the heck a Russian task force was doing in the Gulf of California for the the USS Virginia task force to run into. Hopefully you guys will like it

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I am actually coming up with a very logical explanation that details how the Mexicans got Russian equipment in City of Angels and also explains what the heck a Russian task force was doing in the Gulf of California for the the USS Virginia task force to run into. Hopefully you guys will like it

Cool! I'm not planning on publishing so anything more plausible than canon is fine by me.