5th Division locations

[Rockwolf66]

Hey all,

As there is a TW2K game starting on RPOL, I am trying my hand at TW2K fiction. Something to get me into an TEOTWAWKI mindset.

The general idea is to cover the time period between the battle for Berling and the 5th destruction.

I am wondering if anyone has compiled when and where the 5th traveled to various places. I know that there is a battle in Black Madonna and where the division dies. Other than that I cannot find any real data and I've looked over the forum trying to see if i could dig up anything.

[James Langham2]

I am working (very slowly) on the 5th Division and here are some bits that may help:

1997
On 20th April, the German Third Army recrossed the Polish border in the Gorlitz area with the objective of taking Silesia and securing the southern flank of the attack. They encircled the Soviet 3rd Guards Motor Rifle Division just north-west of Wroclaw. The newly arrived Category II division was almost completely destroyed by the German Leopards of the 29th Panzer Division. The 3rd was only rescued by a quick counter-attack by the 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division. By May 11th Wroclaw had fallen, the Soviet 35th Guards Motor Rifle Division counter attack failed when it was encircled and virtually destroyed by the US 5th Infantry Division. The battered Polish 2nd Motor Rifle Division and 12th Tank Division already battered during the fighting in Germany tried to stem the tide. The 12th held Opole while the 2nd fell back to Gliwice.

2000
The 8th Division (Mechanised) was ordered to pursue fleeing Polish units and to undertake deep penetration raids. An overworked and overoptimistic staff officer at the 8th misread the map co-ordinates and added extra information that would give the 8th the ultimate aim of Kaliningrad to link up with the Free Latvian Army. This was the origin of the infamous “left turn at Albuquerque” legend where a navigational error by a junior officer was blamed for a 200km plus navigational error.

The 5th Division aimed further south towards Lodz initially making good progress against scattered opposition.

The last of the Polish army counter attacked and the remnants of four Soviet Armies turned towards the Third Army. IInd Corps was shattered by what was probably the last Soviet armoured units in Europe, lead by two armies that surprised all intelligence estimates with the strategic speed of their movements. Even the last remnants of NATO's aviation fuel and advanced munitions were used to launch a final series of airstrikes on rear areas that failed to halt the advance. The 4th Guards Tank Army and 22nd Cavalry rolled into the 5th Division with over 100 modern tanks near Kalisz, 100km short of the objective of Lodz. The 5th was over-run and the last recorded message from its commander General Taylor was “you're on your own, good luck.” The 8th Division which was making good progress was cut off and contact was quickly lost, their fate was unknown. Of the US IInd Corps, only the 2nd Marine Division was in a position to retreat successfully with assistance from the 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group.

2012
The book “Lies and Deceits: The secret history of the war” was published in the United States. It's author Morgan Pattison argued that many irrational events have a rational explanation. Both US Governments denied the stories in the book but many gained public acceptance as evidence was hard come by. When Lt Col Bernard McGough late of the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanised) claimed that as per Pattison the unit was sacrificed to cover a secret mission his claims were given credence. Gradually these claims became more mainstream despite government denials until by 2018 the story started to appear in mainstream histories as a possibility. No evidence of this however has ever been found.

I've skipped the bits from the Black Madonna as you obviously have these. I assume you have seen the changes of Corps in the US Vehicle Guide.

You might also want to look at my article Marauder Companies as there are a few references there.

[Olefin]

"Of the US IInd Corps, only the 2nd Marine Division was in a position to retreat successfully with assistance from the 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group."

Will you be adding the Cav and the 50th as well into this?

[James Langham2]

Originally Posted by Olefin

"Of the US IInd Corps, only the 2nd Marine Division was in a position to retreat successfully with assistance from the 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group."

Will you be adding the Cav and the 50th as well into this?

I'm sure that was a quote, I just wish I knew where from!

[Silent Hunter UK]

Which game is this? I might be up for joining it.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by James Langham2

I'm sure that was a quote, I just wish I knew where from!

I quoted it from what you posted - just put the one section in quotes instead of the usual quoting the entire post thing

[Adm.Lee]

I wrote some backstory for the PCs in my convention games. I posit that the 5th spent most of 1999 in southern Germany, but I've been vague as to exactly where. I did this so I could link some of the characters to an campaign of skirmishing with some Italian Alpini patrols in the mountains.

My conception of things is that the US deployed 2 armies in Germany, and we see in Kalisz and Going Home that nearly all of the US ground forces aren't facing east. I'm thinking one is facing west and one south, both in the western-southwestern parts of Germany, not far from their peacetime garrison positions. When the 2000 plan rolled around, XI Corps was detached and sent northeast, with whatever fuel reserves had been built up over the previous fall and winter.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I quoted it from what you posted - just put the one section in quotes instead of the usual quoting the entire post thing

I meant I had taken that from somewhere but I'm not sure where.

[James Langham]

This is what I have so far regarding history - does anyone have any CANON references I have missed (there is some non-canon material in there already before anyone asks where certain bits came from).

A pre-war regular army division with two active brigades stationed at Fort Polk, Louisiana and under command of the III US Corps. The division was put on alert in October of 1996 and brought up to strength by the addition of the 256th Mechanized Brigade (Louisiana National Guard).

The division was deployed to Germany by air and sea in December of 1996. Most of the troops deployed by air linking up with the POMCUS material site six in the Netherlands (plus ammunition at Coevarden). A decision was made however to deploy a number of sub units by sea (in particular elements of the 256th Mechanised Brigade). This decision appears to be due to casualties in the airlift command – predominantly due to crashes due to fatigue but some from enemy action). Upon arrival the division entered combat still under III US Corps. At this point it temporarily took under command the German 81st Heimatschutz Regiment to replace the 256th. Initially it moved to Koln as the Corps reserve.

By March the division had

In April of 1997 the division was transferred to 3rd German Army where it came under command of Panzergruppe Oberdorf. This coincided with the launching of Operation Advent Crown on the 2nd April with the 5th launching off from Gorlitz. The division fought through southern Poland until bad weather (the spring rains) briefly halted the advance. The planned strike towards Czestochowa on the 20th was postponed for four days. Unfortunately security was compromised and the Pact forces had time to react. There were brief skirmishes at Namyslow and just south of Olensow where the 5th which was following the 116th Armoured Cavalry Rgt pushed through it to attacke the Polish 12th Tank Division pushing it toward Gliwice. On the 3rd June the 5th started to participate in the Battle of Czestochowa (although many sources date the battle May 24th to June 17th).

The opening barrage used the 5th’s full artillery power to hit the city (supported by the 21st Panzerartillerie Rgt) with the barrage starting at 18:45. At 0500 the following morning the barrage lifted and the 1st Brigade began it’s attack to the south. By 1200 the first troops had crossed the Warta (having far more success than the German 361st to the north). Digging in on the east bank, the 1st brigade was involved with heavy fighting with the 16th Parachute Rgt. Many observers note that if the Poles had better artillery support the bridges of the 7th and 769th Engineers would not have held and the 1st Brigade would have been cut off. By sunset of the 6th, the 256th Mechanised Brigade had pushed over the river and were now reaching the base of the Jasna Gora. Casualties were horrific with General Obersdorf being reminded of his grandfather’s description of Stalingrad. Probing attacks turned into a full scale assault with what some later regarded as the worst of the war. By 0430 on the 7th the 2-256th had reached the summit.

Six weeks later in mid-August the 3rd German Army withdrew from Silesia with the 5th acting as the rear guard leaving a 10kt nuclear demolition charge behind.

In early August 1997 the division withdrew from Czestochowa under orders from the German commander of the Panzergruppe and retired to Germany. In Germany the division received drafts of replacements and the 3-70th Armor were issued the M1A2. A detachment of 150 students from the division were enrolled in the Marauder training programme at Bad Tolz (of these 130 graduated in October) and the division formed P (Marauder) Company M&I Battalion.

In October 1997 the division was shifted north and came under command of XI US Corps, recently activated in-theatre.

In the June 1998 Pact Offensive in Silesia, the division was ordered to stand by for a transfer back to the south but the orders were cancelled at the last minute and it remained part of XI US Corps.

1999 was a quiet period, mainly due to logistics issues in the aftermath of two years of fighting and the nuclear exchanges.

In the autumn of 1999 the division moved into cantonment area and began a process of reorganising as strength was down to 25% with 20% vehicle strength.

In the summer of 2000, the division spearheaded the corps' drive into southern Poland. For this the 116th ACR was attached.

[James Langham]

As things are very quiet on here, a Christmas treat, the 5th Division so far (lots to do on it yet...)

As ever feedback is appreciated.

[mpipes]

256th Brigade in 1996 included E Troop, 256th Cavalry Regiment. This would have been a standard cavalry troop,

According to my research, historically they had also received M1A1s and M2A1s by 1996.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by mpipes

256th Brigade in 1996 included E Troop, 256th Cavalry Regiment. This would have been a standard cavalry troop,

According to my research, historically they had also received M1A1s and M2A1s by 1996.

Thanks - do you know when E Troop was added?

Vehicle wise I have gone with what is listed in the vehicle guides as I try to make anything I write compatible with canon.

[mpipes]

Here is a Wikipedia link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/256th_...(United_States)

E Troop was part of the 256th till 9/1996 when it was reflagged as A Troop, 108th Cavalry Rgt, 256th Brigade. Historically, the 256th had an organic cavalry Troop assigned for recon beginning since at least the 1970s. During the latest Brigade Combat Team reorganizations, the recon element was reflagged and reorganized as the 2nd Squadron, 108th Cavalry Regiment.

I've assumed that during the run-up to the Twilight War, the unit reflagging in 1996 never occurred. However, no matter what, I don't believe that the unit would have disappeared from the ORBAT with wars going on and mobilization essentially in progress. I have been back and forth to call it the E Troop, 108th Cavalry Rgt, 256th Brigade, since the 108th was historically the parent regiment, at least till the 1920s. However, the 108th Cavalry squadron designations were more traditionally tied to the Georgia NG, at least from the 1920s.

After the embarrassment of Desert Storm, unit training was stepped up. I know they had M2s and M1s by 1990, and I am fairly certain as a roundout brigade it had M1A1s and M2A1s by 1990 and Desert Storm. Historically, I am certain that if they did not have these variants, that after the 5th Div was disbanded in 1992, the 256th received M1A1s and M2A1s during the draw down and reorganization, so historically by 1996 the unit would have had M1A1s and M2A1s regardless of which timeline used.

[Adm.Lee]

When did the division's infantry battalions reflag to the 6th Regiment, as opposed to the 10th and 11th regiments that were cited in Death of a Division?

[mpipes]

1985 Reorganization reflagged the battalions Regiment affiliations.

As I recall this was an effort to reestablish the heraldry of the army battalions and promote esprit de corp. In theory, all army combat personnel remain assigned to battalions with the same heritage throughout their service.

[alexei]

According to this doc (Page 18) about roundout brigades the 256th was transitioning to Bradleys during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I have another doc that confirms that, but I was unable to get the second one to upload.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

When did the division's infantry battalions reflag to the 6th Regiment, as opposed to the 10th and 11th regiments that were cited in Death of a Division?

3-10th Inf reflagged as 4-6th and the 3-11th Inf reflagged as 3-6th on 8/1/1984
The 1-61st Inf reflagged as 5-6th on 6/16/1989
4-12th Cavalry was reflagged 3-1st sometime in 1990
2-21st FA was reflagged 4-1 in 1988
3-19th FA was reflagged 5-1 in 1988
3-21st FA became the C Btry/21st FA (MLRS)
K Btry/ 29th FA became H Btry/ 25th FA (TA)
1-40th Armor was reflagged 1-70th Armor

Originally Posted by alexei

According to this doc (Page 18) about roundout brigades the 256th was transitioning to Bradleys during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I have another doc that confirms that, but I was unable to get the second one to upload.

Weirdly enought the 5th hadn't fully converted to Bradleys at that point.