U.S. Army 1980's

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Louied

Great spot @Shrike6! I just looked it up and NJ lost two Mech Bns Sept 1 1991
So this must have been to replace at least one.

It also lost 2 armored Battalions of the 102nd as well in 1991. Guessing it lost a whole NJ brigade at that time. The 36th was missing a mech infantry btn on its formation. Given the location of the btn makes more sense that it was filling that spot imo.

[shrike6]

Yep 1st and 2nd Brigade consolidated in 1991. https://njmilitiamuseum.org/unit-lineages/50-infantry So 50 th Armored division would have 2 Bdes at the time looked like this:

50th AD in 1991

1st Bde

2-103rd Armor
3-103rd Armor
2-113th infantry
1-114th Infantry

36th Bde
7-112th Armor
8-112th Armor

????
4-156th Infantry

[Louied]

I came up with the same thing.......I wonder if the Mech Bn in LA was programmed pre-Quicksilver reductions. I have anecdotal evidence that the NJ element was only at 75% manning. I would love to see the plans for the NE Divs if the Wall didn't come down (42 ID was having trouble recruiting the 3rd Bde to replace 27IB)

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Louied

I came up with the same thing.......I wonder if the Mech Bn in LA was programmed pre-Quicksilver reductions. I have anecdotal evidence that the NJ element was only at 75% manning. I would love to see the plans for the NE Divs if the Wall didn't come down (42 ID was having trouble recruiting the 3rd Bde to replace 27IB)

I think thats a good guess. It would have been under a pre AOE TOE. Under those TOEs an Armored Division would have had 10 btns and 50AD only had 9 pre 91.

[Louied]

@shrike6

It looks like 50AD converted to J Series TO&E in 1987 from that 1990 realignment PDF I posted. So by 1991 it was the only Heavy Div that wasn’t converted to L Series. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a plan to either merge the NJ element with 42 ID and the TX/LA part the base for another Div….

[Ursus Maior]

Does anyone here have both the J and L TOE at hand or could send/link me a copy?

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Does anyone here have both the J and L TOE at hand or could send/link me a copy?

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/army/unit/toe/index.html

[Ursus Maior]

Thanks for that. I totally forgot about that directory.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've said this in other threads, but 2ID in Korea in the 1980s and early 90s had a strange organization for their three infantry brigades. 1st and 2nd Brigade were standard mechanized infantry brigades. But 3rd Brigade was weird -- one light infantry battalion, one Air Assault battalion, and one Airborne battalion.

3rd Brigade was an experimental organization, however, and last I heard, it was a Stryker Brigade.

[Adm.Lee]

I wondered if that 3rd brigade was meant to be helicoptered as needed as a quick reserve, or possibly airliftable as a strategic reserve for the Pacific theater, or simply easily airliftable from Ft. Lewis to the ROK?

ISTR the 7th and 25th divisions were restructured as Light, in hopes of being able to airlift them to ROK (or somewhere else) in a hurry. Some of 7th ID's battalions did just that in Panama, 1989.

[Louied]

IIRC, someone here or on another forum stated the standard Inf Bde Bns manned posts along the DMZ...
Was this the case?

Found something interesting on topic, don’t know the date though:

2D INFANTRY DIVISION FORCE STRUCTURE REORGANIZATION

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...15MN002570.pdf

Edited for clarity

[Louied]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Thanks for that. I totally forgot about that directory.

Excellent thread at the TO&E group with downloads...


https://groups.io/g/TOandEs/topic/us...86310016844407

[Ursus Maior]

Fantastic! Very useful, thanks!

[Louied]

Separate Inf Bdes and Theatre Defense Bdes October 1986....
@shrike6

Berlin Bde is again referred to as 199th

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...024486I001.pdf

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Louied

Separate Inf Bdes and Theatre Defense Bdes October 1986....
@shrike6

Berlin Bde is again referred to as 199th

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...024486I001.pdf

Nice find.

[Louied]

@James1978

Circa 1983: INDUSTRIAL MOBILIZATION: THE RELEVANT HISTORY

https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...024497I002.pdf

[Louied]

Hi,

Need some help, I just stumbled across this. Lists all major equipment the Army intended to field to Europe, SWA, and the Pacific:



https://emu.usahec.org/alma/multimed...025441I001.pdf

I'm just trying to reconcile the MBT numbers, Pacific i have the two tank Bns of 2 ID in Korea and it looks like they are counting the Tank Bn at Ft. Lewis also. There are at least two pages marked "Corrected" so I am going off those numbers.

[shrike6]

So your talking the 92 numbers? I'm not seeing any corrected pages for PACOM. I'm not sure Either 2-77/1-33 Armor was going to be part of the 2nd ID in 92 or there were plans to add a third armored battalion in 1992. Could also be a typo. Seems odd to add back in a battalion of M60s after replacing them with M1s two years before.

[shrike6]

Here a proposal from 1984 to redesignate Training Base battalions to Combat Arm designations. Obviously this was not actually used as some of the designations were used for active units. Still interesting.

[shrike6]

This might be a little easier to read.

[Louied]

Nice Shrike6!

Re: So your talking the 92 numbers? I'm not seeing any corrected pages for PACOM. I'm not sure Either 2-77/1-33 Armor was going to be part of the 2nd ID in 92 or there were plans to add a third armored battalion in 1992. Could also be a typo. Seems odd to add back in a battalion of M60s after replacing them with M1s two years before.

I found the answer to that one from a tanker who was in 2ID in the mid-80's. At the time, 1987, a Washington ARNG AR Bn (the independent one, WA ARNG had two, the other was assigned to 81 MXB) was CAPSTONED to 2 ID. The M60A3's in 1992 were to be held in ROK for them. Of course this changed when 81 MXB became the 9 ID RO in 1988 and that AR Bn was taken under command.

[Louied]

Found this in the UK's Joint Theatre Plans:

JTP 845: Support for 28 Infantry Division

So it looks like 28 IND would have transited through the UK?

Chico:
JTP 822: Contingency Plan for Operations of a USN Carrier Air Wing from Airfields in the UK

JTP 802: Staging of II MEF
JTP 805 : Transit of The Air Wing of II MEF

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Louied

Found this in the UK's Joint Theatre Plans:

JTP 845: Support for 28 Infantry Division

So it looks like 28 IND would have transited through the UK?

Chico:
JTP 822: Contingency Plan for Operations of a USN Carrier Air Wing from Airfields in the UK

JTP 802: Staging of II MEF
JTP 805 : Transit of The Air Wing of II MEF

Are these plans available anywhere? (Other than a trip to Kew?)

Thanks!

[Louied]

Chico,

I only have the list of JTPs and the short title of what they were, basically what I typed.......no detail. They seem to be divided between UK/NATO centric (BAOR/AFNORTH/AFSOUTH) reinforcement, ROW contingencies (reinforcing Cyprus/Falklands/Gibraltar/Hong Kong)and evacuations (they did list one for Afghanistan!), and US/UK specific (basically basing and LOC for US Forces).

So far at Kew I have only found one complete, detailed plan.....UKMF to BALTAP on TTW. It was over 300 pages and had Ports of Embarkation, travel times, radio frequencies, rations, etc......

I know that the MOD does big file dumps at the end of each year and they are still in possession of a lot of files, so maybe a FOI request?

[shrike6]

Not so sure this is the right thread for this but I decided to start rechecking US Army Battalions Lineage from the Johnson Callahan 1989 NATO Order of Battle v8.4 This is what I have come up with so far. Ive decided to do it in a different way. Note: its still a work in progress

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by shrike6

Not so sure this is the right thread for this but I decided to start rechecking US Army Battalions Lineage from the Johnson Callahan 1989 NATO Order of Battle v8.4 This is what I have come up with so far. Ive decided to do it in a different way. Note: its still a work in progress

This looks great!

DO you have access to this book? I found it helpful in trying to track down all TRADOC units, although I am still generally stymied by the USAR training divisions!

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by chico20854

This looks great!

DO you have access to this book? I found it helpful in trying to track down all TRADOC units, although I am still generally stymied by the USAR training divisions!

Thanks Chico! No sorry I do not but Aumiller does good stuff still have his website bookmarked.

[shrike6]

1990s ACR (L)

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA288949.pdf

Contains the objective design for the pre Stryker 2ACR(L)

[shrike6]

ADA Bde 1996

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADB148423.pdf

1990 paper contains proposed ADA Bde realignements for the early to mid 1990s.

[Louied]

Great finds Shrike!!