On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

YOU'RE A YINZER??

I did ROTC too. First at Allegheny College right behind the Admiral (Lee) and later in the unified program that included Allegheny, Ganon, Mercyhurst, and Edinboro Universities. All our "drills" were held at Edinboro. I still declined a commission though, I LOVED being on a gun crew and wouldn't give it up, even after they disbanded the 4th/92nd FA. That's how I ended up on active duty with the 10th Mountain during RESTORE HOPE.

I'm not a Yinzer, just went to school up there. After four years I'd had enough, but a year or two at Ft. Sill was enough to convince me Pittsburgh wasn't so bad so I went back for another couple years of school. Haven't been up there in 12+ years though...

The Carnegie Mellon ROTC battalion got consolidated into the Pitt one when I was there. Post-Cold War drawdown spelled the end of that unit and my comissioning; that's ok I had more fun being enlisted!

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by cawest

i now you have a lot on your plate. but the attached might be use full. the first is civi trucks and cars for combat. the second is popeye that was almost made for the IDF (maybe a second supply point). the penguin can be mounted on a UH 60, and the old sea apache. I could see the 1st proposal being green lighted with 2nd being worked on or in test phase by this point in the war.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/dacia-duster_td/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(missile)

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_...sea_apache.php

Thanks!

The USAF bought the Popeye starting in 1989 as the AGM-142 Have Nap; I'll have to write it into the timeline coming up. Likewise, I think the US Navy deployed Penguin from SH-60s; I have a photo of one being fired in my Illustrated History of the Third World War, page 84!

On Sea Apache, I think the limiting factor is going to be plant capacity... the MDD helo plant is running full speed producing for the Army, which still has several active-duty divisions with Cobras rather than Apaches, and once combat starts all production is trying to keep up with combat losses, and the US really didn't maintain war reserve aircraft stocks beyond the retired aircraft at AMARC and miscellaneous "hacks" in various units.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

Yep- the light cav TOE jumped out because the material is easy to train on (19Ds train on the HMMWV, .50 cal and Mk19 at OSUT and a monkey can use a TOW once it’s collimated), probably in production, and easy to move. But, re-equipping out of the full heavy ACR set (less RAS) that was left in CONUS by 3d ACR and shipped forward or dipping into some of the kit being shipped forward from the heavy division garrisons may make sense. Unless combat losses were higher than forecast, or subs/raiders got some of them. Maybe there is a plan to rapidly NET and re-equip some of the guard units coming over, even though cannon doesn’t support this (36th ID still runs M113s and M60s in the US combat vehicle guide- OBE perhaps?).

I could see a second refit of the 278th after combat attrition of the light vehicles in Poland. As history has shown, the 1025/1026/966/988 have limited survivability against most threats. Maybe the re-equipment with V series, peacekeepers, etc came after regeneration following losses early in the 97 campaign? Plus, I can’t see the USAF giving up airfield security and EOD vehicles as they are trying to protect airbases from SOF, UW, and UXO threats. There weren’t that many of them either.

Thanks! I like your idea and think I'll use it, re-equipping with the V-series and Peacekeepers after losing vehicles in Poland.

Don't worry, the light cavalry regiment will make a non-canon appearance in CENTCOM! Coming to a conflict near you!

[Homer]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Thanks! I like your idea and think I'll use it, re-equipping with the V-series and Peacekeepers after losing vehicles in Poland.

Don't worry, the light cavalry regiment will make a non-canon appearance in CENTCOM! Coming to a conflict near you!

Glad you can use it! I like the piece about war stocks being released. The 278th will still have an “interesting” war as an ACR without a RAS. The AHs and OHs play a large part in the cav being able to move fast and hit hard.

I pity the ACR(L) in combat against a medium or heavy force, especially in an offensive role. Low rate of fire against armored vehicles or field fortifications (and no stabilization), low vehicle survivability, can’t breach mounted, and can only dismount scouts by removing crew from scout trucks. It’s a little better on the defense. High PK and range of of TOW, ability to rapidly lay two scatterable minefields (air and ground volcano), can create lots of obstacles, and establish a deep security zone. Great for an austere theater though.

IRL, the ACR(L) was supposed to be HMMWV/M8 based according to MTOE, with 966s as substitutes for the M8. Apparently there were studies (pre-Stryker) of equipping the regiment with LAV-III and M8s. Budget killed the M8 and the LAV-III morphed into the Stryker to be “C-130 transportable”.

I’m always awed by the amount of information GDW put in the various guidebooks. Just getting the details of reforger, mobilization, and reconstitution put together in a believable manner across a multi theater campaign took a lot of doing pre-internet. They did a pretty good job with projected tech and projects (the Stingray and RDF light tank were contending for Sheridan replacements long before the M8).

[cawest]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Thanks!

The USAF bought the Popeye starting in 1989 as the AGM-142 Have Nap; I'll have to write it into the timeline coming up. Likewise, I think the US Navy deployed Penguin from SH-60s; I have a photo of one being fired in my Illustrated History of the Third World War, page 84!

On Sea Apache, I think the limiting factor is going to be plant capacity... the MDD helo plant is running full speed producing for the Army, which still has several active-duty divisions with Cobras rather than Apaches, and once combat starts all production is trying to keep up with combat losses, and the US really didn't maintain war reserve aircraft stocks beyond the retired aircraft at AMARC and miscellaneous "hacks" in various units.

how about putting the helos on the deck of cargo ships when they are going between the US and warzones. they could act something to help with airdefense, Sidearms (ARM), and the harpoons and a blast warhead version of the Hellfire. subs do not like helos.

[Matt Wiser]

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

[lordroel]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

You mean sunk ore mange to get out safely.

[chico20854]

January 26, 1997

Nothing in the canon for the day!

The San Diego harbor channel is fully reopened after removal of the wreck of the tug Janet Pommet, sunk by a Spetsnaz team on January 11.

photo
The Seattle barricade situation concludes with a massive explosion as a Soviet Spetsnaz team tries to break out of police encirclement; three police officers, a firefighter and five Soviets are killed. One Soviet escapes.

The Commonwealth Defense Attache, UK Lieutenant General Sir Robert Owens, is dispatched to New Delhi on "a special mission."

The artillery bombardment of the Oder bridgeheads continues. NATO commanders divert engineer battalions from restoring battle damage behind the lines to adding bridges across the river and constructing deep shelters for the troops.

Marshall Papkov, the Western TVD commander, is recalled to Moscow.

The 264th Engineer Group (Combat) (Wisconsin NG) begins loading vehicles and heavy equipment aboard the freighters Arabian Breeze and Cape Horn in Oakland, CA.

Soviet bombers return to the skies over Bucharest, inflicting more damage on the tank plant.

The Turkish 1st Battalion, 2nd Commando Brigade lands at Nicosia airport and immediately is engaged against Cyptiot police, customs and Army units.

The Turkish submarine Sakarya sinks the Soviet transport Volzhsky-10 bringing supplies into the beseiged city of Burgas, Bulgaria.

Turkish Army orders additional forces into Bulgaria to resume the northward advance while maintaining the isolation of Burgas.

A small USAF team consisting of contracting officers, communications specialists, weather observers and a small security detachment arrives at Point Salines Airport, Grenada to establish it as a minor transit stop for aircraft headed to Africa and the Middle East.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by cawest

how about putting the helos on the deck of cargo ships when they are going between the US and warzones. they could act something to help with airdefense, Sidearms (ARM), and the harpoons and a blast warhead version of the Hellfire. subs do not like helos.

That's practical only to a limited extent. Normally helos transported by sea are shrink-wrapped (see this photo) to protect them from the corrosion from the sea spray. The pilots and ground crew normally deploy by air and link up with their aircraft at the pier. Army helicopter pilots are not normally trained on shipboard landing procedures, which in the North Atlantic winter could be quite dicey. (The Canadian Navy developed a system to winch helicopters down onto the landing pad of frigates and destroyers!) The cargo ships are not normally set up to support flight operations (they would ideally need additonal lighting, firefighting, maintenance shops, fuel and oxygen supplies, an ordnance magazine, additional accomodations, fresh water and generators) and leaving room for flight operations and maintenance reduces the ship's carrying capacity. Of course there are workarounds, but most helicopters being deployed by sea will not be able to be flown along the way.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Sending an SSN into the Black Sea isn't a good idea. Only one way in or out...

But, fortunately one controlled by an ally! At least until later in the year...

[chico20854]

January 27, 1997

Another busy day, except according to canon! Nothing official, but unofficially:

photo
Turkish amphibious ships land in northern Cyprus and disgorge the 39th Infantry Division. Local Turkish militias secure the landing site. Nicosia airport is secured and the remainder of 2nd Commando Brigade arrives on an airlift that includes requisitioned Turkish Airways airliners.

The last remaining Spetsnaz team member from the Seattle holdup hijacks a car in Bellingham, WA.

The USAF, on behalf of the Navy and Marine Corps as well as itself, orders an increase of JDAM kit production from 130 a day to 250 a day. McDonnell Douglas begins assembly of a second production line at its St Charles, Missouri plant to meet the demand.

The US Navy purchases three large, fast container ships from a South Korean company for conversion to escort carriers.

photo
The Marine Corps activates scout-bombing squadrons VMSB-341, 342 and 343 to fly AV-8C Harriers from the escort carriers.

The Freedom ship Utah Freedom is delivered in Galveston, TX; the Maryland Freedom is delivered in Pascagoula, MS.

The 479th Field Artillery Brigade (US Army Reserve) arrives at the port of Pohang, South Korea.

Special Forces troops of the 10th SF Group attack the air defense radar site at Liepaya, Latvia.

Colonel General Dmitri Slepnev, who started the war as commander of 2nd Guards Tank Army before assuming command of Second Western Front, is promoted to Marshall and named commander of the Western TVD (Theater of Military Operations).

An American ELINT satellite makes a startling discovery - emissions identified as coming from a Soviet nuclear-powered battle cruiser of the Kirov class. The Northern Fleet's ships (the Kirov, Frunze and Dzerzhinskiy) were all believed sunk in the Battle of the Norwegian Sea. One has apparently survived and slipped through the GIUK Gap.

Soviet bombers make a third attack on the Bucharest tank plant; losing a Tu-22 Blinder and another Tu-16. The three nights of raids have halted production entirely.

The Soviets renew their offensive in Iran, finally confident that they have ammassed sufficient supplies to sustain operations for a few weeks.

Marshall Papkov, former Western TVD commander, is shot for his failures in East Germany.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

That said, the Army had a variety of light cavalry and motorized infantry organization models using the hmmwv or jeep, up to the OTL ACR(L). With production of TOW, small arms, hmmwv, and potentially M198 howitzers presumably ramped up for the war in China, material may be available in quantity. This equipment is easily transported, supports existing doctrine, and uses existing logistics stockpiles. Plus, the combat mos manning numbers in the light ACR/CAV TOE are less than or equal to those of a heavy ACR or CAV unit. Any excess support personnel in HHTs and RSS can be released back as replacements. With a heavy squadron (+), all the separates (MICO, ADA btty, Sapper CO, and MP plt), and two reequipped light squadrons the regiment can still perform most reconnaissance and security missions. The biggest handicap would be the loss of the RAS, assuming that the helo’s were cocooned and shipped and not sent by strategic airlift.

I'm using this early post-cold war study as a basis for my light ACR, just with LAV-75/Buford/choose your favorite as the AGS and with LAV-25-series vehicles replacing the M113s and other miscellaneous armored vehicles. The only oddity is the ADATS (NLOS-M in the study) on a LAV-75 chassis that GDW put in the US Army Vehicle Guide, so there's a total of four companies in the army with this system instead of just three (in the 9th ID's ADA battalion)!

[Raellus]

Chico, what was that Spetsnaz team doing in Seattle?

-

[cawest]

Originally Posted by chico20854

That's practical only to a limited extent. Normally helos transported by sea are shrink-wrapped (see this photo) to protect them from the corrosion from the sea spray. The pilots and ground crew normally deploy by air and link up with their aircraft at the pier. Army helicopter pilots are not normally trained on shipboard landing procedures, which in the North Atlantic winter could be quite dicey. (The Canadian Navy developed a system to winch helicopters down onto the landing pad of frigates and destroyers!) The cargo ships are not normally set up to support flight operations (they would ideally need additonal lighting, firefighting, maintenance shops, fuel and oxygen supplies, an ordnance magazine, additional accomodations, fresh water and generators) and leaving room for flight operations and maintenance reduces the ship's carrying capacity. Of course there are workarounds, but most helicopters being deployed by sea will not be able to be flown along the way.

yes, in peace time but if your going to be carrying helos. why not use them because what happens if that ship sinks with the helos on them. sometimes you have to learn on the job. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...er-ship-183127

[Homer]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I'm using this early post-cold war study as a basis for my light ACR, just with LAV-75/Buford/choose your favorite as the AGS and with LAV-25-series vehicles replacing the M113s and other miscellaneous armored vehicles. The only oddity is the ADATS (NLOS-M in the study) on a LAV-75 chassis that GDW put in the US Army Vehicle Guide, so there's a total of four companies in the army with this system instead of just three (in the 9th ID's ADA battalion)!

Great Stuff!

That looks a lot more likely than HMMWV mounted scouts! The tracks keep the mobility of the heavy ACR. I think the C-141/C-17 sortie count may have driven the real life choice of vehicles. The NLOS would be a useful addition. And there were M113 scout platoon organizations that included M901s and dragon mount M113s, so there may be a way to get some AT firepower back. Realistically the LACR would be a unit that would flow into theater by strategic air then do its tactical and operational movement by ground.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Chico, what was that Spetsnaz team doing in Seattle?

-

There have been Spetsnaz sleeper cells in the US and most Western countries since Spetsnaz was first formed during the Cold War.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

There have been Spetsnaz sleeper cells in the US and most Western countries since Spetsnaz was first formed during the Cold War.

Right- I'm not questioning their presence in the USA. I'm just curious about what that particular team's mission was. Chico?

-

[chico20854]

January 28, 1997

The Headquarters, 41st Infantry Division is formed at Camp Atterbury, IN, taking command of the 33rd (Illinois National Guard), 73rd (Ohio National Guard) and 106th (Indiana National Guard) Infantry Brigades. (An unofficial alternative is the 41st (Oregon) Infantry Brigade, since the 106th doesn't seem to have actually existed!), as well as miscellaneous other independent service and support units.

Unofficially:

The Commonwealth Defense Attache, UK Lieutenant General Sir Robert Owens, at a reception at the Swiss Ambassador's residence in New Delhi, has a conversation with the Soviet defense attache, Colonel General Oleg Tulaev, about opening a dialouge on war termination. (This method of conducting negotiations was approved by the NATO heads of state earlier in the month).

Troops from the 1st Washington State Defense Force Brigade and sheriff's deputies surround the last Spetsnaz team member and kill him in a firefight as they attempt to detain him.

The US Navy activates helicopter squadrons HS-22, 23, 24 and 25 to fly SH-3 ASW helicopters and HC-10 to fly Sea King AEW helicopters from escort carriers.

The British Royal Fleet Auxilary places the repair ship RFA Assistance (former Stena Protector) into service following its conversion from a subsea service vessel.

A P-3C Orion of No 11 Sqn, RAAF attacks and sinks the Soviet Victor-I attack submarine K-454 in the Philippine Sea northwest of Palau.

The Soviet Baltic Front orders the 107th MRD to assist the MVD in hunting down pro-NATO partisans and their American Special Forces trainers in the Baltic Republics.

An all-out effort is launched to locate the Kirov-class battlecruiser identified the prior day. Patrol aircraft, bombers and ELINT aircraft fly over the North Atlantic. Another Soviet raider sinks the Panamanian cargo ship Toshka, sailing unescorted in the North Atlantic carrying civilian cargo to Spain.

Soviet long-range aviation switches targets to Brasov, Romania, and the large DAC truck and IAR helicopter plants in the city.

The Soviet offensive in Iran continues, with Pasdaran troops, now better trained and equipped with chemical protective gear, nonetheless overwhelmed by Soviet mechanized troops' firepower and mobility.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Right- I'm not questioning their presence in the USA. I'm just curious about what that particular team's mission was. Chico?

-

They had several targets in the Puget Sound area on their list. Their dream was to strike the SSBN base in Bangor, Washington (they reconned it and decided that absent hijaking a helicopter they had little chance of overcoming the base's security and damaging a boomer). Other objectives included to damage the Boeing aircraft plants, disrupt deployment from the port of Tacoma and McChord AFB (as they did by shooting down the 767), possibly inflitrate Ft Lewis and assasinate the CG of 9th ID and the families of many I Corps commanders. There were also shipyards and refineries in the region, as well as the big Naval ammo dump at Port Hadlock.

I had the GRU direct that the Spetsnaz teams try to hide in urban areas, where they were more likely to be able to blend into the crowd than in a rural area or small town where strangers would be immediately noticed.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by cawest

yes, in peace time but if your going to be carrying helos. why not use them because what happens if that ship sinks with the helos on them. sometimes you have to learn on the job. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/re...er-ship-183127

The US does convert a couple container ships to serve as escort carriers. Stay tuned! A summary of the program is here.

For more info on how to do it, check out one of my favorite books.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

Great Stuff!
That looks a lot more likely than HMMWV mounted scouts! The tracks keep the mobility of the heavy ACR. I think the C-141/C-17 sortie count may have driven the real life choice of vehicles. The NLOS would be a useful addition. And there were M113 scout platoon organizations that included M901s and dragon mount M113s, so there may be a way to get some AT firepower back. Realistically the LACR would be a unit that would flow into theater by strategic air then do its tactical and operational movement by ground.

I agree, I think that LACR is one that is much more likely to be effective in a medium-intensity conflict. Against a Soviet tank army they're still out of luck, but in a light corps that was always a foregone conclusion. It seems from the US Army Vehicle Guide that the Army had decided to forgo some strategic mobility in exchange for additional tactical mobility and firepower in the light infantry divisions with the conversion of three battalions to various light mechanized and AGS battalions. Not a bad tradeoff in my opinion!

[Homer]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I agree, I think that LACR is one that is much more likely to be effective in a medium-intensity conflict. Against a Soviet tank army they're still out of luck, but in a light corps that was always a foregone conclusion. It seems from the US Army Vehicle Guide that the Army had decided to forgo some strategic mobility in exchange for additional tactical mobility and firepower in the light infantry divisions with the conversion of three battalions to various light mechanized and AGS battalions. Not a bad tradeoff in my opinion!

Yep. There's a scene in Sword Point where a BMP battalion rolls over a light infantry battalion so quickly the POV character doesn’t even realize they’d done so. A platoon of 105mm armed AGS could have evened the odds a bit. Rediscovering the value of mobile, protected firepower in support of infantry seems to be almost generational in the US.

The AGS/113/109 equipped regiment was probably as much a casualty of the “peace dividend” as of any real bias for strategic mobility. Witness the deployment by air of a composite heavy battalion into an airhead during OIF I or the deployment by air of an USMC armored unit to Afghanistan. You can do it if you’re willing to dedicate the sorties. Especially once the C-17 comes on line.

Being a little less armored is not as lethal in most parts of the CENTCOM AOR as it is in Europe or Korea with closer engagement ranges and heavy threats. In Iran and on the Arabian peninsula there are more areas supporting long range fires than in Europe, while a medium weight system is sufficient for the Armor threat in most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

[chico20854]

January 29, 1997

Qom falls to Soviets as Pasdaran resistance crumbles under the firepower of Soviet tank regiments.

Turkish troops capture Larnaca and advance on Limassol. The Greek government decides to deploy troops to Cyprus to resist the Turks.

Unofficially,

USAF Systems Command, responding to desperate calls to increase the supply of precision guided munitions, begins emergency test series to outfit the F-111 and F-15E strike aircraft with the AGM-142 Have Nap missile, currently in production and in the inventory for use on the B-52 as a conventional stand-off weapon.

The RFA Assistance departs Hull, England for Muscat, Oman to service RN and allied vessels in the Middle East.

Western TVD commander Marshall Slepnev orders Reserve Front to bring 4th Guards Tank Army, with two tank divisions, two motor-rifle divisions and two independent tank regiments, out of its reserve positions northeast of Poznan.

The Soviet raider Buliny, under the command of Captain 2nd Rank Mikhail Mischenko, attacks and sinks the German container ship Dubai Bay, en route empty to North Carolina to load ammunition.

The unidentified Kirov-class battlecruiser shoots down an unarmed HU-25 Coast Guard patrol airplane in the Atlantic. SACLANT orders the formation of surface action groups in Norfolk, Gibraltar, St Johns and Belfast to sortie against it when it is located.

Poor weather over Romania grants the country a reprieve from Soviet strategic bombing. In an effort to maintain its armored strength, the Romanian ministry of defense meets with several attaches in Bucharest.

A Soviet raider sinks the Panamanian-flagged bulk freigher Ocean Pearl II bringing grain into Lagos. The loss of the cargo exacerbates the food crisis in Nigeria.

US Navy SEEBEEs complete their work at Cocos (Keeling) Islands Airport in the Indian Ocean, having constructed barracks, a large hangar, additional ramp space and various support facilities sufficient to support a US or RAAF P-3 squadron.

[chico20854]

January 30, 1997

Nothing in the canon for today...

Strategic Air Command receives authorization from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to develop modified JDAM GPS-guidance kits for B-61 and B-83 nuclear bombs.

Aircraft from the carriers Constellation and Abraham Lincoln launch strikes against North Korean troops and artillery sites along the DMZ from the Yellow Sea.

The first South Korean container ship, the Hanjin Keelung, arrives in Charleston, SC for conversion to an escort carrier.

The Victory ship Earlham Victory exits the shipyard after reactivation and crosses San Francisco Bay to load cargo in Oakland. The WW II built ship had sailed for 8 years post war, mostly in support of the Korean and Vietnam wars. Also leaving the shipyard that day, the freighter John Lykes, reactivated after being laid up for nearly 18 months.

In light of Soviet long-range aviation's focus on Romanian tank and trucks plants, CENTAF launches Operation Night Breeze. USAF F-15Es, F-111s and F-117s, British, Luftwaffe and Marineflieger (German naval air force) Tornadoes launch six waves of attacks on Polish tank plant in Gliwice and the Martin tank plant in Czechoslovakia. The use of PGMs by the NATO aircraft allow the raids to be more successful than the Soviet ones, and production at both plants is severely curtailed.

The Soviet frigate SKR-58 hits a NATO mine while crossing the GIUK Gap and sinks. Three sailors survive and are captured by the US cruiser Leyte Gulf, patrolling the Gap.

The surface action groups formed the prior day sortie into the North Atlantic, joining the search for the Soviet battle cruiser.

The Greek 2nd Parachute Regiment arrives at Paphos airport in southwestern Cyprus and immediately rushes to defense of Limassol. V Infantry Division in Crete loads onto amphibious shipping. The Greek Navy deploys into Aegean and eastern Mediterranean.

Turkish troops in Bulgaria capture the town of Kotel in the Balkan Mountains (which run east to west across the country) after weeks of fighting in the bitter winter conditions.

Soviet bombers encounter a rude surprise when they return to the skies over Brasov, Romania - the city's defenses have been augmented by a battery of Patriot missiles of the 1st Battalion, 7th Air Defense Artillery, flown in from Germany. The American missiles down 8 bombers.

The 135th Field Artillery Brigade (Missouri National Guard) completes its deployment into Hamburg.

The Mobilization-only 113th MRD is called up in the Caucasus for service in the Balkans.

[pmulcahy11b]

Marineflieger. That's a new one on me. I put it in Bing and I'll definitely read about it later.

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters? And in a Twilight 2000 timeline, why didn't they buy the AV-8 to operate off of some of the larger ships? (They do have amphibious assault ships, though these are also basically helicopter carriers.)

[micromachine]

The Marineflieger was formed at the same time as the modern Bundemarine. The wikipedia article is a simplistic read on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marineflieger

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters?

I'm pretty sure the Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in the anti-shipping role.

IIRC, they also operated the Bréguet 1150 Atlantic patrol/ASW prop plane.

-

[Homer]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Marineflieger. That's a new one on me. I put it in Bing and I'll definitely read about it later.

But that leaves a question, one that I'll probably find out about later when I do my reading. Germany has no aircraft carriers, so is the Marineflieger basically limited to helicopters? And in a Twilight 2000 timeline, why didn't they buy the AV-8 to operate off of some of the larger ships? (They do have amphibious assault ships, though these are also basically helicopter carriers.)

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantic’s; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarine’s envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm pretty sure the Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in the anti-shipping role.

IIRC, they also operated the Bréguet 1150 Atlantic patrol/ASW prop plane.

-

Yes, they did: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavi...(Marineflieger)

Until 1994, when CFE treat obligations kicked in, the Deutsche Marine (until 1990: Bundesmarine, engl. Federal Navy) operated two wings of 48 Tornado IDS each. They were employed in a naval strike, wild-weasel and reconnaissance role. In 2005 the second wing was disbanded, its Tornados transferred to the Luftwaffe for the same mission. Main strike missile was the Kormoran and later the Harpoon.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

The late 80s/early 90s (and presumably T2K) Marineflieger operated the Tornado IDS in two wings focused on anti-shipping tasks with a secondary land attack capability; a patrol wing of Atlantic’s; a wing of shipboard and land based Lynx ASW/ASuW and Sea King ASuW; and a utility/SAR/special projects wing of Dorniers, Sea Kings, and Atlantics. The Bundesmarine operated a handful of LCMs of the Barbe class, but nothing to take the weight or support the logistics of a Harrier. FWIW, the bundesmarine’s envisioned main areas of operation would under land based coverage.

Exactly, couldn't summarize them any better myself!