So what happens to Poland?

[Adm.Lee]

I've read and liked many of your works posted here on America's recovery, the British and the Mexicans.

But this game is solely responsible for inspiring in me an interest in Polish history (sad stuff on the whole, btw). Has anyone written up their recovery? After so many modules set there, I was disappointed to see next to nothing when 2300 came around.

For that matter, did anyone get to running the second batch of Poland modules (Return to Europe)?

[Abbott Shaull]

Never played the 2nd set of Europe module.

I think very few units of the Pact are answering any orders. Most of the Soviet units that are still organized and operating as units are either, 1 making plans to get back to home in the Soviet Union, or 2 have settled down to provide the local protection by slowly merging with the local militia units, going native. The commanders are trying to hold together their units, and not wanting to add to mass of marauders that are out there in Poland by late 2000 and early 2001.

Let's face it the 4th Guards Tank and 22nd Cavalry Armies were on the verge of dissolving into marauders groups. Even the Third Shock Army wasn't able to move as fast as higher headquarters had hoped. Also the Polish units that were pursuing the XI Corps and it units was doing so half-heartedly. They wanted to or felt they needed to stay close to their cantonments.

Even the units that had dissolved into marauder bands, they are looking more and more for communities to settle down into, even if the community don't want them.

As for the US units, many of them would be settling down where they were at. On one hand they some would like make it back to the US, or would settle to make it back to NATO lines, but realistically they realize they are better off staying put. Many of the Pact units are falling apart around them.

I can see some German units slowly making their way into area of Western Poland in small unit effort to reclaim former German Territory.

Just some thoughts.

[Raellus]

I agree with Abbot Shaull. Canon seems to suggest that Poland after 2000 is divided into several neo-feudal fiefdoms, some rather large (The Margrave of Silesia, the Black Baron's territory around Warsaw, the Free City of Krakow, etc.), some small communities with foreign military or pseudo-military (i.e. marauder) garrisons, either welcome or unwelcome.

There's the communist government enclave around Lublin but they don't seem to have the manpower to "reconquer" much territory, let alone control the territory that is nominally theirs.

In my T2K world, the U.S. 8th ID, returning from Latvia, the ex-Soviet 10th Guards TD, Free Polish forces, and various remnants of other NATO units shattered in the July offensive in northern Poland form a large cantonment on Poland's Baltic Coast. This cantonment declares itself loyal to CIVGOV and ignores MILGOV orders to return home.

In a friend's campaign, Gdansk declares itself a free city and is garrisoned, in part, by a unit of NATO stragglers calling itself the International Brigade.

I'm sure that if the Germans found themsleves able and the opportunity presented itself, they would try to assume control of territory traditionally considered part of Greater Germany. But then, they would probably have to deal with thier own rogue regions first.

A Poland similar to the one we know today would probably not reemerge for at least a decade after the Twilight War sputters to a halt in mid 2001.

[chico20854]

Longer term, Poland is in a rough situation.

Strategically & geographically, its in a tough spot. Its right in between the Germans and the Russians on the Northern European plain, with no natural obstacles of any real use to define natural borders to the east or west.

Poland in 2001 is at best a nation with a strong national identity & pride ruled by dozens of warlords, with every part of the country thoroughly damaged by conventional and nuclear war. The neighbors it is concerned about - the Germans and Russians - are also in bad shape. (The Czechoslovaks to the south, on the other side of the Tatras, and the Swedes from across the Baltic, present no real threat to Poland). French meddling will ensure that Germany remains chaotic and divided, and Germany's damage is almost as great as Poland's. Russia has lost its army, its economy and most of its borderlands.

So it becomes a decades-long race to rebuild, with Poland needing to maintain a rate of recovery sufficient to keep up with the Germans and Russians when they too recover.

In this I think Poland has an advantage. (Not to stereotype, this is based on my experiences in Poland and with my many friends in Poland). Their fierce national pride, history of surviving extreme deprivation (not only the Communist rule and WWII but also having the nation split between Austria, Prussia and Russia from 1796 to 1918) and sense of nationhood should give them a chance.

How do I see Poland recovering? First, NATO and non-Polish Warsaw Pact troops will either leave or get integrated into Polish society in the 2000-2003 timeframe. Warlords will continue to battle for cantonments and resources, which will continue to cause hardship but also kill off the more violent and aggressive elements of society, while simultaneously creating an ever deeper war-weariness in the population. In the period following this, a kind of stability will follow, with several powerful warlords more or less holding a truce, husbanding their strength and willing to rule their fief and not risk losing a war against another warlord. (And by warlord, I really mean independent armed group - it could be a city council, religious leader such as the priest that runs a partisan band in Black Madonna or element of the Polish Free Congress). With time, a sort of confederation emerges, sort of a league of independent city-states. Where Poland's chance for recovery comes in is if a charismatic leader (or with some other way to appeal to the Pole's sense of patriotism, such as the Black Madonna) is able to unite the independent statelets back into the nation of Poland. At first it would be a loose union, but with time it could evolve into a nation-state, perhaps under a king or ruler selected by either the common populace or (more likely IMHO) some sort of council composed of leaders from the various regions.

As for the neighbors, the Germans will have a tough time recovering with French troops on the west bank of the Rhine, and, with time, French efforts to keep Germany divided into competing parts (essentially returning Germany to the pre-Kaiser/1870s status quo). Russia will struggle in chaos for years until a new Tsar (or similar autocrat) arises. Even then the traditional inefficiency of Russia's economy (to a certain extent a direct effect of the massive distances and poor transportation network, requiring central control of scarce economic resources) will mean it will be many years before the Russians can again present a threat to Poland. In many ways, Poland's experience from 1918 to 1939 might be repeated - a united but poor and in many ways weak Poland is able to secure itself, scoring some victories against Russia (Warsaw 1921) and Germany (independence after 120+ years), both of which were suffering extreme chaos as a result of losing WW I. But again, longer term Poland is in a tough position, isolated from external allies and stuck between Germany and Russia.

A less likely option, IMHO, is a resurgence of the Polish-Lithuanian empire. It might help for a few years, especially if the Scandinavians actively support the Balts. Longer term, though, the Baltic republics can't add much in the way of resources or population, at least in terms of being enough to hold off the Russians. (And with Estonia only 75 miles from Leningrad, it might not be any help at all, with the Russians eager to push their borders back and no real natural obstacles to defend).

[Targan]

I'll have to dig out my Traveller 2300 books. That would tell us what happens to Poland in the (very) long term. I can't remember if Poland is mentioned in the 2300 timeline after the Twilight War. I know that by 2300 Germany is still broken up into a number of independent states and the Ukraine is also independent.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'll have to dig out my Traveller 2300 books. That would tell us what happens to Poland in the (very) long term. I can't remember if Poland is mentioned in the 2300 timeline after the Twilight War. I know that by 2300 Germany is still broken up into a number of independent states and the Ukraine is also independent.

I looked at 2300 fairly recently, and I don't recall much detail at all (thus my disappointment). It's there, so it didn't get swallowed by Russia+Germany again. That's at least the good news. It's not a space-exploring country, and it's not in the orbit of the French Empire, either.

Germany's multiple states ends very near the 2300 date, IIRC. Before that, it was split about 5(?) ways, with pro-French Bavaria being the strongest, British-backed Hannover being another.

Ukraine is independent in 2300, and it's a minor player, but due to its French ties it's more of a player in space than Russia.

SO, it seems to me that the norm for devastated European nations is for small statelets to form, and those to coalesce back into approximations of their previous forms. Where some other nation is more intact (read: France) sizable chunks might be kept separate.

My not-too-deeply-thought vision is that marauder kingdoms and cantonments are the immediate future for Poland. Krakow and Silesia are going to be the biggest of the small fry, and they are right next to each other. Some kind of fight between them (with Fr. Niekarz and the Black Madonna as kingmaker?) is due soon, and may determine the biggest fish in the whole pond. The module, I think, points to the players deciding to try to link Krakow and the WL, and knocking off the King.

The Americans in XI Corps' area, and Soviets all over the place, are either going to disappear into the local society or drift home. I can see battalion-size chunks form up and walk out over time. Certainly, some batch of Americans will get some boats and try to coast-jump their way to Britain, at least.

Since Germany got split up, and at least two of the successor states had French and British backing, I wonder if another piece (like Saxony or Brandenburg/Prussia) might develop some Polish ties (willingly or not).

I don't think the Baltic states are still in the 2300 map (I could be wrong), so the Russians may have gotten them back. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth might make a comeback, certainly the Poles might try, but the real power of that union was the Lithuanian lords' domination of Ukraine and Belorussia. Since a play to retake those would run into a much stronger Russia than historical, and Kiev apparently gets some French backing (via Odessa?), that seems less likely.

OTOH, it strikes me that a Polish ploy to keep Russia busy would be to arm and feed some of those batches of ex-Soviet soldiers, and pack them off to the east. "You boys want a marauder kingdom? Great. Go play outside."

[Adm.Lee]

Just re-looked at 2300AD. Poland did pick up Lithuania, Latvia is independent, and Ukraine extends to the Don River.

Germany did split five ways (Bavaria, Hannover (called itself Germany), Westphalia, Saxony, Brandenburg), with the pieces taking sides against each other and foreigners often. Not much fighting reported, though.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'll have to dig out my Traveller 2300 books. That would tell us what happens to Poland in the (very) long term. I can't remember if Poland is mentioned in the 2300 timeline after the Twilight War. I know that by 2300 Germany is still broken up into a number of independent states and the Ukraine is also independent.

Poland is indeed mentioned in the post Twilight era: one of the organizations mentioned in Traveller:2300 and 2300AD is Zapomoga, which started out as a post-war refugee-handling group assisting displaced Polish citizens to get a new start on life. I always wondered if some PC accidentally help start this by giving a struggling zbiegi family a shovel, a screwdriver, and an MRE, and the fellow "paid it forward" in a snowballing charitable wave.

[Targan]

Wow, epic thread necromancy! Nicely done

[simonmark6]

I don't know how official this is, but it's from a website called Etranger which seems to have a lot of fan based 2300AD stuff.

The link is:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...oland/JBPA.htm

The relevant article is:
INTRODUCTION

Poland, circa 2300, is a regional power with a relatively modern, large military. The nation is also surrounded by powerful neighbours, however, and the cornerstone of Polish defence strategy is long-standing and close alliance with the nations of France and Czechoslovakia. For most of the post-Twilight War era, France and Poland have had a close, albeit sometimes rocky, relationship, with the French looking to Poland (and Czechoslovakia) as a stabilizing force in central/eastern Europe and as a potential counterbalance against the German states, Russia, and the Ukraine, with more than a little success along these lines. Under French tutelage, Poland has managed to recover from the Twilight War and prosper. As a consequence of this long association, the Polish Army has been heavily influenced by the French military in terms of organization, equipment and doctrine.

HISTORY

The Twilight War and the 21st Century: Poland was among the most devastated regions of the world at the end of the Twilight War, and what remained of its army, at the beginning of the 21st Century, was a scattering of local warlords and city militias. The first thirty years of the 21st century were spent in a multi-faceted civil war, with the most important factions being the oligarchs of the city-state of Krakow in the south and a coalition of populist militias and stranded American and Canadian forces in the north. Besides fighting each other, these factions were also pre-occupied with dealing with Soviet military units still in the country (by incorporating the more agreeable, and destroying the more hostile) and the remnants of the Polish communist government in Lublin.

In 2026, the French managed to broker an agreement between Krakow and their northern rivals, forming a democratic National Assembly. The National Assembly's first acts were to form the Polish National Army, elect a prime minister, and begin framing a new constitution (in that order). In short order, French aid began to flow into Poland (including military equipment and advisors). The Polish Army, well-equipped compared to their rivals, had little trouble reasserting national unity and integrity in the "War of National Rebirth" (loosely from 2000 onward, more properly 2026-2033).

Ongoing chaos in the Baltic led to the Polish Army occupying Lithuania and Kaliningrad in 2037, with Lithuania (including Kaliningrad) being politically and economically incorporated into Poland as an autonomous province over the course of the next 30 years. A multi-national French, Polish, and Swedish force also briefly occupied Leningrad/St. Petersburg during the 2040s (2042-4) before internal bickering between the Swedes and French, coupled with resurgent Russian nationalism, forced the evacuation of the force.

The Polish Army nearly doubled in size during the Russo-Ukrainian War (2065-2072), dispatching a large expeditionary force to support the Ukrainians as well as launching an invasion of Russia in conjunction with Bavarian and French forces. The invasion enjoyed some initial success (Minsk fell in 2067) but stiffening Russian resistance put the Poles and their allies on the defensive, and long term disaster may have been averted only by the entry of Japan into the war in 2070.

The Polish Army spent the remainder of the century as part of a multi-national force occupying portions of European Russia (including St. Petersburg, again, which was under Franco-Polish administration until 2093). French insistence that these forces be withdrawn at the turn of the century became a lingering source of friction between the Polish and French governments (the Poles were, at the time, contemplating outright annexation of very large tracts of European Russia).

The 22nd Century: Tensions with Russia simmered just below the level of open hostility for much of the century, with a number of border "incidents," some involving battalion and brigade level cross-border raids and artillery duels. French diplomatic pressure (applied heavily on both sides) managed to keep full-scale war from breaking out, however.

In 2162, Poland fought a limited war against the German state of Brandenburg, stemming from a longstanding dispute between the two nations concerning the fate of the city of Szczecin/Stettin, which had come under the control of Brandenburg at the beginning of 21st century. The war erupted after a pro-Polish demonstration (proven, some years later, to have been instigated by allegedly "rogue elements" within the Polish secret service, which had long been engaged in attempts to undermine Brandenburg rule in the city) turned bloody, prompting Poland to dispatch forces to the border. Brandenburg matched the Polish deployment and a confused night action took place some days after the demonstration, with both sides accusing the other of firing first.

Two weeks of bloody fighting in and around the city of Stettin followed, with an attendant flow of refugees out of the city (as well as the displacement of ethnic Germans from the eastern bank of the Oder). Occurring at the height of the Alpha Centauri War, the "Stettin War" (or "Szczecin War" depending on one's perspective) was quickly terminated by diplomatic pressure from France and Bavaria, and resulted in little, save the devastation of the city of Stettin. The Polish-Brandenburg border remained fixed on the line of the Oder-Niese rivers, and Stettin remained a "lost" city as far as the Polish government was concerned. The most notable outcome of the war was the flow of ethnic Polish refugees out of the city into Poland (with ethnic Germans retreating from Stettin and the east bank of the Oder into Brandenburg), so that by the end of the century, Stettin's population was overwhelmingly German, ultimately solving the "Stettin Question" through demographic transition rather than diplomacy or armed might.

As a final note, Polish refugees from the city of Szczecin were assisted in resettlement by the Zapamoga organization, with a great many eventually immigrating to Provence Nouveau and Wellon on Tirane (along with a great many other Polish nationals). Displaced Brandeburg Germans from Stettin and the Oder area played a large part in rebuilding Stettin, though a sizeable minority also emigrated to Tirane.

For the remainder of the century tension remained high along the border, with two near-wars averted in 2170 and 2191 by Bavarian and French diplomatic manoeuvring.

The 23rd Century: The Polish Army contributed the I Polish Expeditionary Corps to the Central Asian War, where they fought under French command. The expeditionary force suffered heavy casualties (stemming from the same shortcomings in doctrine and equipment that hampered the French war effort in general), and popular support for the war in Poland rapidly evaporated. As a result, the ruling Liberal Solidarity party suffered serious losses to the anti-war Unity party in the 2288 elections.

The Unity Party limited Polish participation in the War of German Re-Unification to a strongly worded diplomatic protest. The potential threat of of Polish belligerence, however, did serve to limit the force Germany could deploy against France. The diversion of troops is believed (by the Poles, at any rate) to have been crucial to French victory in the Battle of Picardy which halted the Germans along the Somme.

German reunification proved as volatile a political issue as the Central Asian War had been and the Unity Party's government did not survive long after the announcement of a German state, suffering heavy losses to a resurgent Liberal Solidarity party in emergency elections called in 2294. Liberal Solidarity has made reconciliation with France and military readiness the central tenets of their renewed government. While there is some lingering ill-will among French government officials concerning the failure of Poland (and the Czechs) to aid France during the war, most French citizens regard the War of German Reunification as stemming more from the folly and ineptness of the ruling military Junta.

The Kafer War: The Liberal Solidarity party offered Polish forces to assist in the defence of human space against the Kafers as early as 2299 (as a side note, participation in the war is in part a bid to secure French aid in establishing a Polish colony in the French Arm). Preparations (both diplomatic and military), as well as the scarcity of transport, delayed the deployment of Polish Forces until after the Battle of Beowulf in 2302. For more information, see II Polish Expeditionary Corps.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that character actions can significantly change what the so called future history is of a nation for each particular campaign. So while 2300 says what happened to Poland that doesnt necessarily match what your campaign's reality is.

in my campaign we didnt give the Madonna to the priest - we gave it to the Free Polish Congress - and the Warsaw module result was changed too - i.e. the Baron, literally, had his head handed to him. Thus in my campaign universe the future of Poland would be significantly different than it was in a purist 2300 universe.

For instance the US never taking back the Southwest from Mexico is not part of the campaign history we had for Twilight 2000

[Targan]

Indeed. I expect that Major Po and his merry band of psychotics having backpack nuked Pact Reserve Front HQ at Lublin in November of 2000 in my last campaign would have had some fairly major repurcussions on the timeline moving forward.

[Olefin]

Perfect example there Targan - and I bet there are others out there as well - i.e. in my campaign when we went on Med Cruise the captain wasnt there just to get weapons to the resistance and pick up the scientists

he was there to deliver a nuclear knockout blow to Ploesti and finish off the Soviets in the Balkans once and for all plus drop off DIA agents and supplies to get the CivGov troops in the Balkans to change to MilGov

definitely changed the whole face of the Twilights 2000 universe for our campaign just by exercising his rights to make changes to the module as allowed by the GDW writers but still have it work for the sequel

Love that touch of Po using a suitcase nuke - perfect way to have a hell of a lot of payback in a very believeable way

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Targan

Wow, epic thread necromancy! Nicely done

you are right - didnt even notice that this thread had been dormant for almost 5 years - must be a record for bringing one back from the archives

[mikeo80]

Talking about changing modules, to me that is the FUN in RPG's!!!!! Sometimes playing the module straight up is great. Then for both the player and the GM, changing one little item DOES change "the world".

One memorable example. I played this in about 1995 96. We were working for the C.I.A. We were chasing after the Black Madonna. As we neared the rubble strewn hill that led to the caverns where we thought the BM was stored, we met with another group of soldiers. Wearing SWISS army uniforms??!!?? After a minute or two of confusion and apprehension, a tall, elderly man stepped out from the main body of the Swiss. As an American and a Roman Catholic, my character recognized him.....instantly.....

His Holiness, John Paul II......

He KNEW what the Black Madonna was and what it could mean to the Polish People. He was here to find it and use himself and the Madonna as a rallying cry for the Polish nation. Would we help him?

We Americans looked at each other. Thought about it. The Master Sgt. commanding our squad said it best. "F*** the C.I.A, the D.I.A, the K.G.B. This is a man of God. Who the F*** are we to stand in his way? OK, Mr. Pope, Lead on."

My $0.02

Mike

[Adm.Lee]

I mentioned at the top that T2k started my interest in Polish history. Last summer, I picked up an odd game called "God's playground" (taken from the title for one of the best overall histories of Poland). Three players only, each the head of a magnate family, cooperating and competing simultaneously to dominate the country and save it from invaders. Good fun, but not easy for people to grok.

Simommark6, thanks for the Etranger post, I had forgotten about that site. So, I wasn't far from that writer's opinion, either-- warlords, primarily in the north and south, eventually come together to re-form a country over 27 years. If I were to write such a thing, my personal preference would be for the Church to be the unifying factor, along with the French.

Someday, I may run a "second-stage" Poland campaign, what happens after the summer & autumn of 2000?