Fire Arms Range (2nd ed)

[The Zappster]

I've never liked the idea that each range band is double the previous. So your M16 A2 has close range = 55m, medium = 110m, long = 220m, extreme = 440m. This means half of all fire arms range. Counts as extreme. I'm thinking of following the way it's done in CoC (and others) which is range bands are added. So now your M16 A2 has close range =110m, medium = 220m, long = 330m, extreme = 440m. This fits with my rule change philosophy of the less work the better. My question to the hive mind is, can you think of any way this would affect game play ?

[The Zappster]

As soon as I pressed send, I thought of something. Anything that adds to base range will also have to double. Other than that I THINK it will fit with basic and optional rules, like battle site zero.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by The Zappster

I've never liked the idea that each range band is double the previous. So your M16 A2 has close range = 55m, medium = 110m, long = 220m, extreme = 440m. This means half of all fire arms range. Counts as extreme. I'm thinking of following the way it's done in CoC (and others) which is range bands are added. So now your M16 A2 has close range =110m, medium = 220m, long = 330m, extreme = 440m. This fits with my rule change philosophy of the less work the better. My question to the hive mind is, can you think of any way this would affect game play ?

Maths is not my strong suit, but doesn't this make it quite a bit easier to hit a target, given the corresponding difficulty levels?

For example, under the v2.2 rules, a shot with a range of 75m (for an M16) would have been a medium-range shot, making it a Difficult task. Under your range band system, it is now a short-range shot, and thus an Average task. This lowers the Target number for the character's skill check dice rolls, thereby increasing the odds of success pretty significantly.

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[The Zappster]

Short range is difficult unless you spend an action aiming, at least in edition 2.2, then only one shot is counted as aimed. I also strictly use cover rules. So for example, if you target is firing over a wall then he is 1 difficulty level harder to hit AND if you hit, you still need to roll location, and in the example above only location 1 to 4 would count as a hit.

[pmulcahy11b]

I add a point blank range, which is one-half short range to a maximum of 30 meters and all shots are easy; and a range band beyond extreme (I never came up with a good name). I did this because when I was at my peak in the Army, I was able to hit consistently at 600 meters with an M16A2, and we also trained to blast a target at very short range without using sights.

[The Zappster]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Maths is not my strong suit, but doesn't this make it quite a bit easier to hit a target, given the corresponding difficulty levels?

For example, under the v2.2 rules, a shot with a range of 75m (for an M16) would have been a medium-range shot, making it a Difficult task. Under your range band system, it is now a short-range shot, and thus an Average task. This lowers the Target number for the character's skill check dice rolls, thereby increasing the odds of success pretty significantly.

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I don't know any other way of making the bands equal without doubling the base range to keep the extreme range the same. I don't want to mess with the weapon stats, just stop half of all weapons range being almost impossible to hit at all.

[The Zappster]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I add a point blank range, which is one-half short range to a maximum of 30 meters and all shots are easy; and a range band beyond extreme (I never came up with a good name). I did this because when I was at my peak in the Army, I was able to hit consistently at 600 meters with an M16A2, and we also trained to blast a target at very short range without using sights.

A friend of mine who used to serve in the reserves said he would regularly hit targets in the head at 100m on the ranges using his LSW. This one of the reasons I use to justify doubling the weapons base range. (I am now going to Paul's site to see the base range of the LSW)

[The Zappster]

LSW close range =68M. doubled to suit my experimental system = 136M. close range quick shot is a difficult (X1 skill), not being shot at and target not moving around (2 diff mods easier), called head shot (1 diff mod harder) means average (x2 skill) to hit the range target in the head. So long as you are trained with your weapon, this still fits with my friends account.

[HaplessOperator]

Originally Posted by The Zappster

A friend of mine who used to serve in the reserves said he would regularly hit targets in the head at 100m on the ranges using his LSW. This one of the reasons I use to justify doubling the weapons base range. (I am now going to Paul's site to see the base range of the LSW)

Your buddy in the reserves was also on a flat range in a comfortable, uncompromised shooting position with no one shooting at him and with a complete lack of adrenaline.

Practically anyone can land shots like that. I had my wife popping groups of about 2 inches the first time she zeroed the RPR I bought her, because she was on a flat range in a comfortavle, uncompromised shooting position with no one shooting at her a complete lack of adrenaline.

Once you're shitting your pants and trying to squeeze aimed shots at someone who's actively trying to kill your ass, you're usually just going for minute of man even at a hundred yards.

Only time you really get much of a chance to aim is if you can completely overwhelm your targets with automatic fire to such degree they can't really maneuver or deliver fire with any safety at all, and if you've got them like that, you're better served maneuvering elements to conduct the assault if practical, and start finishing people off.

Your estimates are based on the most favorable, milquetoast shooting conditions imaginable, and have absolutely no relation to combat shooting at all.

[The Zappster]

Originally Posted by HaplessOperator

Your buddy in the reserves was also on a flat range in a comfortable, uncompromised shooting position with no one shooting at him and with a complete lack of adrenaline.

Which is why I said 2 diff mods easier to hit( so goes from difficult x one skill to easy × FOUR skill.these are also not my estimates. All I'm doing is doubling the base range of the existing stats so that the end range remains the saime. I don't know another way to do it, and why I posted this thread.

[HaplessOperator]

Originally Posted by The Zappster

Which is why I said 2 diff mods easier to hit( so goes from difficult x one skill to easy × FOUR skill.these are also not my estimates. All I'm doing is doubling the base range of the existing stats so that the end range remains the saime. I don't know another way to do it, and why I posted this thread.

The originals simply make more sense. 440 meters IS fairly extreme range for combat accuracy with just about any rifle.

Tour targets are fleeting, moving quickly, dipping in and out of cover, and sporadically returning fire from unexpected angles any time you momentarily lose track of one.

It's a double whip triple shot grande order to hit a target with any particular round you fire at that distance, no matter how well you're aiming. Your rifle and ammunition contribute somewhere between 2-and 6 minutes of angle, even if you the shooter are perfectly on target with your point of aim, so at about 500 yards (just over 440 meters), you're looking at a potential deflection of up to nearly a foot and a half if you're shooting loosely spec'd ammo out of a worn barrel. Your rifle is BZO'd to 200 or 300 depending on if you're a Soldier or a Marine, and yeah, a good BZO helps, but you're still shooting at something that's only visible half the time, is exposing - usually - just their shoulders and head, and that is actively trying to wipe you out.

The original range bands make more or less perfect sense for most rifles at those ranges.

Hitting your target outside of close range is exceedingly difficult, and even that presents its own difficulties.

[The Zappster]

This is why I (nervously) posted this here. Having never served (medically unfit, not unwilling) and living in the UK. It's very difficult to even see a rifle, never mind fire one. Hapless seems to know his stuff, so if he says everything beyond 220 meter with an M16 a2 counts as extreme range, then i won't argue the toss.
It has made me notice something else though. Am I the only referee here who makes short range fire a difficult (x1 skill) action ?

[HaplessOperator]

Originally Posted by The Zappster

This is why I (nervously) posted this here. Having never served (medically unfit, not unwilling) and living in the UK. It's very difficult to even see a rifle, never mind fire one. Hapless seems to know his stuff, so if he says everything beyond 220 meter with an M16 a2 counts as extreme range, then i won't argue the toss.
It has made me notice something else though. Am I the only referee here who makes short range fire a difficult (x1 skill) action ?

I don't. The closer your distance, the easier the shooting is, period. There's less ability to take effective cover other than completely removing yourself from the angle of fire, zero functional deflection, your weapon is perfectly zeroed for the range you're fighting at, there's functionally zero delay from shot to impact, removing any need at all to lead a target, and if you sweep someone with the muzzle and they're in the open, you've more or less got them dead to rights.

It's one of the reasons close-in fighting through structures, in trenches, and dense vegetation is so lethal. You see extremely high ammo expendifures, because the only way to stay alive fighting close in is through sheer weight of fire superiority and violence of action or to straight up not be where the gunfire is. You go into that room, SOMEONE's getting shot. Someone runs across that street with your rifle or LMG pointed down the axis, SOMEONE's getting shot. Turn that corner, align the muzzle, squeeze on sight picture, and you just put a hole in someone, no chance of them dodging or dipping behind cover, or - usually - any real cover to be found.

It's also the reason that your first goal, other than seeking cover, in a surprise or disadvantageous engagement is to get distance. Offers you better protection against the shooter, makes it harder for him to hit you, makes it easier to break contact.