Don't sue us...

[kato13]

nmdecke 12-25-2003, 02:32 PM Hi,

I am an occasional lurker here but I have something that I'd like to toss out. Last summer, with my associates in crime (plagarism...) I was working on a gazetteer for America in a post-holocaust setting. We used Twilight 2000 as a basis, but changed it to be an America in 1964 following the nuclear war of 1962 (Cuban Missile Crisis gone bad). As we have moved on to other projects unrelated to this gazetter (and got burned out on the whole idea), I thought I'd post it on the web to get some feedback. Many (most) of you will recognize bits and pieces of your own work in this gazetter, as we scoured the web looking for ideas to suppliment our own. No, we didn't footnote anyone's work, so don't sue us, please. We never really intended for this to make it out of our little group. If anyone has any comments, please let us know. Thanks.


www.geocities.com/nmdecke/Twilight1964.html

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graebarde 12-26-2003, 11:07 AM Now I could play that timeline I think. Pre automatic rifle for every soldier and all. WW2 surplus the norm, etc.


I remember the Cuban crisis having lived through it as a teen. I'm reading 'Alas Babylon' now for the umpteenth time, and would provide a good basis for info/ideas within the timeline as well.


Good job.

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TR 12-28-2003, 09:50 PM HEHEHEHEHHEH


I looked over the site, the materials especially on Colorado which looked very familiar in a number of spots...





If I may add a few suggestions which may help.... just of what I know of Colorado back then.


Definately you could expect a nuke on Buckley Air Force Base which was used at the time by Air Force and Marine Corps units. We know currently that Sterling, Colorado is home to a lot of nuclear missiles with launch/storage facilities but I don't know how long they have been there.


With regards to Indiana I will merely point out a couple things in that I grew up there. (Where exactly you at back there if I may ask?) Back then in the 1960's you had a lot of rural farms, most folk had a rifle, shotgun, etc for hunting and varmit control. Most folk would definately be wary of strangers and communities would band together to deal with their own problems of course when law enforcement and or military would not be around.


The state was then especially Republican in politics and as such I don't quite so readily agree with the ease of which the state goes Civgov or the descriptions of many areas being crime ridden... sorry...


Otherrwise I thought it was great, reminded me of some of the discussions about Operation: Dropshot from the boards from a few years back.


I have to agree with graebarde, reading of Alas Babylon is almost required reading for gaming during this period. A great source of ideas and plot lines to be played out...


Until Later,



TR

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graebarde 12-28-2003, 10:15 PM Operation: Dropshot.. now THAT is quite a book. THE plans for nuclear war with Russia about 1957, thought the plans were written in about 1949 IIRC.

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nmdecke 12-29-2003, 07:59 AM Thanks for the positive imput. To be honest, me and my two mates (a grocery stocker in Arizona and a retired US Army colonel in Virginia) have devoted way, way too much time to this project, hours and hours and hours...It is no where near complete, but we are quite proud of the effort so far. We would really love to have some more detailed editing from some other folks, we have pretty much run out of ideas...Please feel free to email me anything you want to include, perhaps one day I can get a group of people interested in playing in the world we have created. Thanks again for not taking legal action...


BTW, I live in Bluffton, Indiana, just south of Fort Wayne. I have also lived in CA, WY, VA, MO, KS, AR and AZ so I have familiarity with a lot of the areas that I nuked and ravaged...

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orrin_ladd 12-29-2003, 08:18 PM LOL, I recognize a lot of California stuff. I'm not interested in suing anyone, unless you're going to be making millions of dollars off your site.


Good stuff by the way. I'll probably return the favor and end up using some of your ideas if I ever get around to updating my page.


I'm not up to date with 1960's California military history, but you may want to add:


Castle AFB, located in central California. This was a SAC base. Matt Wiser's been after me to add this to my list.


Hamilton Field located in Novato, north of California. In the 1960's, I think this was an Air Force training base, also the 91st division ran excercises here but the actual grounds were owned by the Navy.


Mare Island? The oldest navy base on the West Coast, located in the North bay. I'm assuming that Hunter's Point didn't survive the nuke that hit south of Market in San Francisco. (for that matter Naval Station Treasure Island is probably gone too) So most of the naval forces would relocate to Mare Island.


Nike missile sites? I'm not sure of Southern California, but you can visit one of these old anti-ballistic missile sites in Northern California. (Ft. Barry)


East Bay military sites, such as Concord Naval Weapons Station, Oakland Army base, Alameda NAS (probably damaged by the nuke blast)?


If you're going to mention CSU Chico and UC Davis, what about the other universities in California. I realize there are a ton of universities in California, but what about the University of California, Stanford, University of the Pacific, UCLA, Loyola etc?


You mention 1/19 SFG. I'm not sure if this SFG was active back in the 1960's.


Oh yeah, if you have gays surviving the nuke blast, you should have the Chinese somewhere too. San Francisco has the largest Chinatown outside of China (no joke).


orrin

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nmdecke 12-30-2003, 06:21 AM Thanks Orrin. All good ideas, I'll try and work them in there.

I don't know a lot about the military in 1962 either, had to do a ton of research before even getting started. Everything was different back then, different weapons, different unit organization, many bases open that are now closed, etc... In this post 911 world, I even found it hard to find official government and military information on the web. So much of that, even stuff from the 1960s, has been taken down for national security reasons. I contacted via email the National Guards of every state to get info, and most of them told me that they couldn't help without me first having written permission from the Dept of Justice and the Army. This has forced me to do a lot of guessing and bluffing to fit things into the timeline.


Mare Island? Actually I need to change the whole Bay area entry, move all the forces up to Mare, probably where it would make more sense to have them. Never enough time...


1/19th? I couldn't find any websites that had the Spec Forces organizations in 1962, so I just guessed.


CHinese in SF? Oh, yeah, forgot them...any ideas for what they could be doing in 1964?


As to why I didn't have Buckeley AFB nuked, it's just because Russian didn't have that many nukes in 1962 to begin with. In a 1980s exchange, you could assign nukes left and right, but in 1962 you have just a few dozen to spread around the entire nation.


Any other ideas?


Thanks again, nathan

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TR 12-30-2003, 01:07 PM Bluffton? Nice place actually, been there a few times when I was younger... I'll see what other materials I have for Indiana and Colorado, which are the two states I have lived in and see if there is anything of value to send along.


There was some discussion awhile back for the old timers aroound in which we discussed usig the Operation Dopshot material as source for a new campaign...


I think the info on it is still available it would certainly give insights on military targets of the time to be sure. I'll root around the old hard drive and see if I have some of the documents on it.



TR

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dawg180 12-30-2003, 03:16 PM Very nice work on Illinois, especially if you had not been there before. I am a bit disappointed to find out Geneva has been taken over by a warlord, looks like I will be growing up in slavery



One note, piracy would be damn near impossible on the Fox River by barge or large boat, at least anywhere in the Chicagoland region, as there are several dams. They can, however, be portaged by canoe or rubber raft and in fact are quite often. Most of the portages would also be crossable by DUKWs, which would also avoid the problem of VERY shallow water (in many spots as little as ankle deep).


BTW, you also mention the Sears Tower collapsing in the A-bomb strike of '62. The Sears Tower was not complteted until 1973, I think constrution took five or six years IIRC.

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nmdecke 12-30-2003, 03:35 PM Thanks for the Illinois info, will have to do some adapting eh? Other than traveling through from time to time I havent spent much time in Illinois. Do you have any other ideas?


Sears Tower not until 1970s? Damn, should have checked that. That sort of thing has been the worst headache. I have to check the constructiong date of every building, dam, airport etc in the nation if I want to use them. As well, so many places have changed names since 1962, like Army bases and airports, that I have to check that sort of thing as well. Military units have been a headache from hell. Most of the army was still in the "Pentomic" system so I have had to hunt through haystacks to find out what a particular battalion or regiment was called back in 1962, often to find, for example, that an Abrams armored battalion from the 1990s was a truck transportation company in 1962. So many National Guard divisions have come and gone since the 1960s that I had to research for days what units were even around then. And any idea how hard it is to find a TOE for a Idaho NG company from 1962? Damn near impossible. And don't get me started on the pain in the neck trying to find the actual locations of units in 1962. It took me forever to find out what army divisions were in Korea and Germany at the time of the Cuban Crisis, even longer to discover where the Marine regiments were at the time. I am rambling...


Thanks for the imput, I'm putting everybody's suggestions in a folder to get to when I have the time. It would be great if this could become a group project, eh? nathan

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shrike6 12-30-2003, 06:12 PM Hope this helps, here's a few notes.


The NAtional Guard had 3 separate brigades in 1959 The 29th (HI), 92nd (PR), 258th (AZ).

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lin.../chapter10.htm


There never was a 44th Armored Division. It's a fictional unit made up for Twilight. The brigades used to form the 44th would have either have been part the 30th Armored Division or the 30th Infantry Division (These are 2 separate divisions) in the 1960s



2nd Brigade, 5th Infantry Division was based at Fort Devens in 1962

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lin.../chapter11.htm


*History of Modern US Army Special Forces:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/vie...-23/90-231.htm

http://www.groups.sfahq.com/


10th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 20 June 1952


77th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 25 September 1953


1st Special Forces Group activated in Okinawa on 24 June 1957


the first Special Forces advisers are sent to South Vietnam in May 1960.


77th Special Forces Group redesignated 7th Special Forces

Group on 20th May 1960


11th Special Forces Group (USAR) formed at Boston, MA on 1 March 1961


12th Special Forces Group (USAR) formed at Chicago, Il on 24 March 1961


19th Special Forces Group (UT NG) formed at Salt Lake City, UT on

1 May 1961


20th Special Forces Group (AL NG) formed at Homewood (Birmingham), AL on 8 July 1961


5th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 21 September 1961

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shrike6 12-30-2003, 08:30 PM More Observations


207th Infantry Group (Scout) (AKNG) wasn't formed until 1976. The unit would have been known as 297th Infantry Regiment (AK NG) containing the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battle Groups


The Mississippi National Guard contained the 108th Armored Cavalry Regiment


West Virginia National Guard contained the 150th Armored Cavalry Regiment


2nd Brigade, 28th Infantry Division wasn't formed until April of 1963

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../28id-2bde.htm

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nmdecke 12-31-2003, 12:19 AM Shrike, you're a god.


I'll be the first to admit I don't know nearly as much as I think about the army (I'm a manager for Wal-Mart) and often the information I get off websites forces me to guess and that is not my strong point. I have to trust in other people's knowledge for the most part, that's the risk when you canabalize what other people have written for your own purposes. I'll add your corrections to the folder, thanks.


Anyone have any ideas for conditions in citys/states/places that I have no listing for? Any time specific events or groups that I missed? Any 1960s public figures that might fit in there somewhere? Any problems with my choices of nuclear targets?


nathan

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dawg180 12-31-2003, 11:42 AM I actually have stood where the crater is in Chi-town, that is so cool! I also like how the near miss in the Lake Michigan actually helped save much of the town.


In fact, I have a Dark Conspiracy campaign I was going to run, and the detail is so good I may change the date and use your site as the background source material!


BTW, I am an architect by trade, and if there are any other major buildings/landmarks you want to double check, let me know as I have a pretty good library of resources concerning that stuff.

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shrike6 12-31-2003, 04:48 PM Originally posted by nmdecke


I'll be the first to admit I don't know nearly as much as I think about the army (I'm a manager for Wal-Mart) and often the information I get off websites forces me to guess and that is not my strong point. I have to trust in other people's knowledge for the most part, that's the risk when you canabalize what other people have written for your own purposes. I'll add your corrections to the folder, thanks.




Nathan,

I also don't know as much as I'd like to think about the armed forces as well. I'm a presently an out of work computer worker (I was laid off yesterday). I run into the same problems that you have. Only advise I can give you is to do the best that you can with what you have. From what I've seen you've done a very good job. I've done tons of research on orders of battle for my own T2K project, I'll throw more of what I've collected your way as I get time.

Brian



a couple of more observations


Living in either Nebraska or South Dakota most of my life, I've got a couple of notes.


Move the maurader group in Sioux Falls from the Battleship Memorial to the Sioux Falls Arena. I'm not so sure how old the memorial is but I don't think it was built till the late 60s. The Arena was built in 1961.

http://members.aol.com/ussdakota/ussdakota.htm

http://www.siouxfallscvb.com/sfarena.cfm


This is more of a note than asking you to change this because this is one of my favorite T2K adventures, though. There really isn't a Mental Hospital in Cedar Rapids, NE.

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 01:28 AM Shrike, thanks for the info, added it to the ever-growing folder. As far as Nebraska goes, I think I erred in placing too many marauder groups in the western and central parts of the state. By 1964, there probably wouldn't be enough food or targets around to keep marauder bands from turning on eachother. I went to grad school in Kansas so I know that part of the nation is pretty inhospitable in the winter, perhaps most marauders would have gone south or east by 1964? Any ideas?


Thanks again for the imput everyone, nathan

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 01:37 AM what, no mental hospital in Cedar Rapids? So GDW lied to us?!?!? Is there even a Cedar Rapids?


As I'm sure everyone has noticed, I took the original Twilight 2000 modules (and Challenge articles) and modified them to fit my timeline. I also took the non-USA modules and crammed them in sideways, no sense wasting perfectly good material just because it is set in a foreign country. Krakow can become Phoenix, Warsaw can become Chicago, etc with some effort and creativity. I'm sure some of you might think this cheating, but again the challenge and the fun of it was trying to adapt everything to my unique timeline.


Does anybody have any good ideas for the southern states? I don't have much for Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana...


Thanks, nathan

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Chuck Mandus 01-01-2004, 11:25 AM I like it, I'm an "alternate history" junky as well. I haven't gone through all of it yet, but when I do, if I can add anything on the Pittsburgh area, I'll check in.


BTW, there is an alternate history novel out there that is set in the world of where The Cuban Missile Crisis "goes boom." It is set in 1998, a generation later with a survivor family living in New England, I think it is upstate New York or New Hampshire. They begin having dreams of an alternate 1998 world where most people had things like a color TV, computers in the home hooked to a thing called "the Internet," and so on.


BTW, I noticed that poor Punkin Center got hit again. Between you and TR, what did those poor people do to deserve that?


Chuck

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 12:06 PM 1 megaton free-fall bomb on Pittsburgh, sorry Chuck. Hope you can give me some good ideas about your neck of the woods.


As far as the blinding hatred for little Punkin Center, you'd have to ask TR. Perhaps he has an ex-girlfriend living there now...


nathan

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Chuck Mandus 01-01-2004, 02:50 PM Originally posted by nmdecke

1 megaton free-fall bomb on Pittsburgh, sorry Chuck. Hope you can give me some good ideas about your neck of the woods.


As far as the blinding hatred for little Punkin Center, you'd have to ask TR. Perhaps he has an ex-girlfriend living there now...


nathan


I noticed that, thanks for making my parent's life harder. I was born in 1966 so I think I would have been "butterflied" out of the picture anyways or I would be a different person. I know people can survive a 1 megger depending where they are although life would soon be harsh to say the least.


One minor nitpick, Disney World in 1962 wasn't around yet, land was being purchased for it in 1965 and construction started around 1966/67 and it opened in 1971. I know some of my family down there helped in the construction. So in 1962, the land would still be various types of swampland, flatland, and cattle pastures. Here's a link:


http://www.fodors.com/features/nfdis...0125_si_disney


I-79 existed then but in Erie it ran from I-90 to Kearsarge, a suburb of Erie for a few miles. Also there was a small section from I-70 to the US19/40 interchange. Back then if you wanted to go to Erie, US 19 was the way to go. My grandmother remembers travelling on it in her uncle's Model T back in the 1920's and my parents went north on their honeymoon in 1959.


http://www.pahighways.com/IHwys/I79.html


Keep up the good work, I like the story!


BTW, one depressing thing is that Walter "Wally" Schirra would have been the last man in space when he orbited the Earth in his Mercury capsule on October 3rd, 1962.

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TR 01-01-2004, 05:52 PM I was able to dig up some information sources with regards to Indiana and Colorado that might be of assistance.


For Indiana I dug up some old notes I'd found from a website (see link below). The link also works as it covers a lot of the old SAC bases.


Grissom Air Force Base

Location: Indiana

Home of: 305th Bomb Wing

Status: Now AF Reserve Base



The history of Grissom Air Reserve Base dates to July 1, 1942 when it was opened by the U.S. Navy. At that time it was named Bunker Hill Naval Air Station and served as a training base for naval pilots. During the four years of Bunker Hill NAS, thousands of pilots were trained for the Navy, Marines and Coast Guard. One of its most famous alumni of Bunker Hill NAS is former major league baseball star Ted Williams.

After the war, the base was closed and it reverted to its former use as farmland. With the outbreak of the Korean War, the Air Force needed a base where it could conduct nationwide and worldwide operations. Again, Bunker Hill become the logical choice. Negotiations were begun with the Navy (who still had the title to the site) to reopen the base as Bunker Hill Air Force Base. To simplify the legal aspects of construction, it was decided that the Navy would let all major contracts and supervise construction of the nearly $25 million in new facilities. In 1982, the Air Force gained the title to the base from the Navy.

The base was reopened as a Tactical Air Command Base. The formal opening was June 22, 1954. That year, the 4433rd Air Base Squadron and the 323rd Fighter-Bomber Wing called Bunker Hill Air Force Base home. In 1955, the Air Defense Command's 319th Fighter Interceptor Squadron joined the forces at the base. The Strategic Air Command arrived on the scene in the mid-fifties and SAC's 8th Air Force assumed jurisdiction of the base on September 1, 1957.

In May 1959, the 305th Bomb Group and its B-47s arrived. Later that same year, the first KC-135 Stratotankers were assigned to the unit. Two years later, B-58s began replacing the B-47s. After 26 years of bearing the name Bunker Hill, the base was renamed on May 12, 1968 after Lieutenant Colonel Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, a native of Mitchell, Ind., who was one of the original seven astronauts. Colonel Grissom was killed during a fire in his Apollo capsule while still on the launching pad at Cape Kennedy, Fla.

On Jan. 1, 1970, the 305th Bomb Group was replaced by the 305th Air Refueling Wing and Grissom became one of the largest tanker bases in the country. The Air Force Reserve became part of the Grissom community in 1971 when the 434th Special Operations Wing and its A-37 aircraft moved to the base. For the next 23 years Grissom was home to both active duty and reserve personnel.

In 1978, a second Air Force Reserve unit joined the scene. At the height of its operations, the base was home to one active duty wing and two Air Force Reserve units. Due to changes in the Air Force mission, two units (one reserve, one active duty) were deactivated in 1994. In October of that year, Grissom was realigned as an Air Force Reserve facility. Today, the base is home to the 434th Air Refueling Wing and is one of only four Air Reserve Command Bases in the nation.

Grissom Air Reserve Base plays an important role in the Indiana economy. It has a combined military-civilian work force and is the largest employer in Miami county and the third largest in north central Indiana. It is estimated the base has an annual economic impact of $75 million.


http://www.strategic-air-command.com...r_Hill_AFB.htm


Lowry Force Base

Location: Denver, Colorado

Home of: 703rd Strategic Missile Wing, 451st Strategic Missile Wing (Titan I)

Status: Closed October 1, 1994. Now an administrative center.




Early History

Lowry Field was originally located near East 38th Avenue and Dahlia Street. It was named after Denver native, US Army Lt. Francis B. Lowry, who was killed in action during World War I. In 1937, President Roosevelt authorized funds to relocate Lowry field to its final site near East 6th Avenue and Quebec Street. The base started its training mission in earnest the following year. World War II caused Lowry to greatly expand it facilities in order to train bomber aircrews along with a large number of other technical specialists.

Training Center

After the war, Lowry continued to train technicians for all branches of the US military. The 59,814 acre Lowry Bombing Range operated from July to December of 1952. It was used by the local Navy, Lowry Air Force Base, and the Air National Guard for practicing bombing and strafing missions and for demolition of unusable Air Force munitions.

On June 7, 1951, Lowry's 3415th Technical Training Wing formed a Guided Missile Department. It taught courses in guidance, control, and propulsion for such systems as Matador, Falcon, Rascal, Snark, and Navaho. By 1962, the Department of Missile Training was providing the Air Force with over 1,000 trained missile specialists per year.

Over the years, thousands of airmen trained at Lowery.


Lowry Barracks, circa 1951

From 1953 to 1955, Lowry became President Dwight D. Eisenhower's "Summer White House" from which he conducted affairs of state while Mamie Eisenhower, a Denver native, visited with family. In 1955, the United States Air Force Academy was established at Lowry AFB pending construction of its facilities in Colorado Springs. The academy remained in operation at Lowry until 1958.

Titan Missile Base

On March 13, 1958, the Air Force Ballistic Committee approved the selection of Lowry to be the first Titan I ICBM base. The launch sites were to be located on the bombing range east of Denver. This was conveniently close to the Titan I manufacturer, the Martin Company (now Lockheed Martin) located in Littleton, Colorado.

Deployment of the missiles entailed a 3 x 3 configuration, meaning that each of the three complexes had three silos grouped in close proximity to a manned launch control facility. In September 1958, construction began on Titan I Missile Complex 1A, the first of six complexes constructed within an 18 mile radius. The excavation was started in May 1959 using an open cut method with depths ranging from 38' to 72'. The missile silo shafts were excavated by mining crews to a depth of 163'. The construction of the underground facilities were of reinforced concrete and structural steel with steel lined tunnels. An unusual requirement was the blast-proofing of elements incorporated into the work with the major mechanical and electrical elements shock-mounted to withstand all explosions except a direct hit. The heavy construction phase was completed on 4 June 1961. The complex was made up of three missile launching silos.

The Omaha District of the Army Corps of Engineers contracted a joint venture led by Morrison-Knudsen of Boise, Idaho, to construct the silos. A 144-day steel strike in 1959 caused delays and forced Morrison-Knudsen to resort to winter concreting. Despite this problem and others caused by constant design modifications, Morrison-Knudsen completed the project on time with the lowest construction costs of any ICBM base in the country at the time. Fairly smooth management-labor relations contributed to the success. The project also maintained the best safety record in the missile construction program up until that time. Use of a safety net was credited with saving many lives. Three workers did die during the project, although one was the result of a motor vehicle accident that occurred off site.


First Titan I Missile

The 703rd Strategic Missile Wing (ICBM-Titan ) was established on September 5, 1958. It was activated at Lowery on Sept. 25, 1958 and assigned to the 1st Missile Division, Fifteenth Air Force. It was a very short-lived wing. It trained in the operation of the Titan intercontinental ballistic missile and became partially operational on December 10, 1958, but before it could become fully operational, it was replaced by the 451st Strategic Missile Wing.

The 451st Strategic Missile Wing (ICBM-Titan) was activated on April 26, 1961 and replaced the 703rd in July. The first missile complex was accepted on April 18, 1962. The Titan I was soon replaced by the more advanced Titan II, which was deployed at other locations. On November 19, 1964, Defense Secretary McNamara announced the phase-out of remaining first-generation Atlas and Titan I missiles by the end of June 1965. This objective was met; on June 25, 1965, the 724th SMS and 725th SMS were inactivated. The 451st went off alert status on March 26, 1965 and began phasing down. The last missile was removed from Lowry on April 14, 1965. The 451st was discontinued and inactivated June 25, 1965.

Although the strategic missiles were gone, missile training remained a vital component of Lowry's mission. In 1972, the 3415th Technical School became the USAF School of Applied Aerospace Sciences with missile training continuing within the Department of Aerospace Munitions Training. In 1978, this department would be redesignated the 3460th Training Group.

The Lowry AFB Titan I Missile Complex IA is located approximately 15 miles southeast of Denver, Colorado. It is bounded by a chain-link fence.

Recent History

Due to the close proximity of the residential area around Lowry and the increase in the number of high performance jet aircraft accidents at the base, flight operations at Lowry ceased in 1966. In 1976 the US Air Force Accounting and Finance Center moved from its old location near East 40th Avenue and York Street to newly built facilities at the southwest corner of the base.

In 1980, Lowry Technical Training Center acquired a B-52D from Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, and stabilized another B-52 on base for use in training crews to load Air Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCMs) and Short Range Air Missiles (SRAMs). Although Chanute AFB, Illinois, served as the primary training center for the Peacekeeper ICBM, Lowry supported training for this strategic missile by providing maintenance and repair training for the Peacekeepers' reentry vehicle at a state-of-the-art facility opened in 1985. In October 1986 ATC initiated an undergraduate space training program at Lowry AFB, CO, providing a basic preparation for space operational assignments. The Maintenance Officer's Nuclear Munitions Course was also conducted at the Lowry AFB Technical Training Center. Comptroller, transportation, and intelligence training moved to Sheppard AFB from Lowry AFB in the fall of 1954. In the late 1980s intelligence training consolidation brought general intelligence training from Lowry AFB to Goodfellow AFB.

In 1993 it was announced that Lowry would be closed as part of cost reduction measures being taken by the US military. On 12 April 1993 the Air Staff approved moving small missile maintenance training from Lowry AFB to Vandenberg AFB, California, where it would be consolidated with large missile maintenance training. The base officially closed October 1, 1994.

Lowry is still an active air force base, but has become an administrative center. It is home of the Reserve Personnel Center, which is charged with providing essential services and administration for the nearly half million women and men of the Air Reserve components in support of the Air Force mission. The center also maintains the master personnel records of all Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve members. The Defense Finance Accounting Service is also located at Lowry.


http://www.strategic-air-command.com.../Lowry_AFB.htm



Hope it helps!


TR

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Jason Weiser 01-01-2004, 08:13 PM Ok, on your NYC section....


1. The South Street Seaport Museum wasn't founded until 1967. It was basically in 1962 just another part of the run down NYC waterfront.


2. Lincoln Tunnel was there, but the Expressway wasn't so the means to get into the tunnel was different.


3. The Manhattan Bridge: This bears some special mention, it's yet another bridge going into Brooklyn from midtown, and vice versa. Anyhow, it serves both subway and road traffic, and sadly, it's not been built to handle it, till recently (They had to do a renovation they only completed late last year). In 1964, with the neglect and strain issues? Not to mention the 1 mt weapon that blowtorched Manhattan..and the tidal wave from the miss...IMO the Manhattan bridge is TOAST.


4. Yankee Stadium...that was pretty much the same as it was before the renovation. I dunno about any bat statue, but I think that was added during said renovation (1966-67).


5. Other ballparks: Ok, the Mets were at the Polo Grounds (Shea wasn't around). This was in Harlem, and, had the war not occured, would have been demolished in 1964. Now, think back to Armies of the Night? Remember, this can be plowed up, and farmed. Folks are going to fight over this. It would have been damaged fairly severely from the blast that wacked 46th Street, but it might have been intact enough to consider farming. Sorry folks, Ebbets Field was gone, as it had been demolished in 1960.


6. Laguardia and Idlewild (nee Kennedy) Airports: Ok, Laguardia was under the PA as of 1947. The main terminal building wasn't opened until 1964, so it was smaller than we know it now. Ok, Kennedy was Idlewild in 1962, and was rededicated after Kennedy was killed. The name change was 12/31/63. The airport, was, smaller as it was still expanding, but it could handle 707s from what I can find out. I think there might have been some flooding damage, but probably not much. Both airports are in Queens, with Idlewild in Jamaica and LGA in Flushing.


7. Governor's Island is a major Coast Guard installation in 1962. I doubt that would have changed, though by 1964, they might have pulled out to Camp May due to the difficulty of keeping Governor's Island supplied.

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shrike6 01-01-2004, 10:19 PM Nathan,

Here's a few of webpages you might find helpful.


http://nsarchive.chadwyck.com/cmessayx.htm

http://www.ajwheat2002.us/bases/

http://www.airforcebase.net/usaf/joeslist.html


Brian

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 11:50 PM You guys are outstanding! I really appreciate all the extra effort you guys are going through here.


TR, I have some air assets at Grissom I think. It just seems like it is too isolated to be worth defending when you have concentrations of forces at Fort Wayne and Terra Haute, places where the infrastructure would be better able to support air operations. BTW, living so close, I've been out there just last year to see the air museum, worth the trip but a shame to see some great planes rusting out in the open.


I didn't do much with Lowry because I put two 6 megaton bursts nearby and just figured that nothing would be left to worry about. Is there any special terrain features of the area that might have saved Lowry from the ground burst at Cherry Creek Dam? Even if anything was left, surely it would have been moved to Colorado Springs by 1964.


Jason, thanks for the NYC notes. Any idea what the US Navy surplus shipyard at Bayonne looks like? I think it was one of the places that a ton of mothballed warships were in the 1960s, that might make some interesting situations...


Again, thanks a bunch nathan

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James1978 01-02-2004, 01:20 AM These are mostly air bases, aircraft plants, and ammunition factories. The aircraft plants would have been prime targets for industrial recovery. The ammunition plants are also interesting as whomever controls them has control over a very important asset. I found most of this at http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ity/index.html where there is an extensive list of military facilities, including many closed ones.


North Texas Stuff

Fort Worth/Carswell AFB

I'm not sure I buy Lake Worth being that contaminated yet Dallas which did get hit seems to be OK. Anyhow, across the runway from Carswell AFB is Air Force Plant 4. That's where they built the B-36 and B-58. Since it didn't get nuked, the plant itself would have been a good place to recover key industrial equipment. There was/is also the Bell Helicopter plant.


DFW Airport - Sorry, didn't open until 1974. That leaves Dallas Love Field and Fort Worth Meacham Field.


Dallas - NAS Dallas was mostly a reserve facility and is located at northwest end of Mountain Creek Lake. There is also the Vought Aircraft plant.


Wichita Falls/Sheppard AFB - A large training base that was home to a B-52 wing from 1960-1965.


Texarkana - Home to the Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant and the Red River Army Depot.


Karnack/Marshall - Home to the Longhorn Army Ammunition Plant. Produced rocket engines and rocket fuel.


Louisiana

Shreveport/Bossier City - Home of Barksdale AFB as well as the Louisiana Army Ammunition Plant.


Alexandria - Home of England AFB. Fort Polk located 70 miles away and was an infantry training base from 1962.


Arkansas

Pine Bluff - The Pine Bluff Arsenal made and stored chemical weapons.


Barling - Home of Fort Chafee.

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Jason Weiser 01-02-2004, 02:26 AM Ok, there is some other stuff.


1. Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, this was NYCs first Airport. It included Naval Air Station New York. Units there were: VMA-131 (USMC A4s), VP-832 and 834 (P2 Neptunes), VP-836 (P2s and PB4Y), VP 913 (P2s again), and HMM-768 (CH-46 and UD-34D)


There was also a large USCG presence there, but I don't have details.


2. Atlantic City also has a large USCG Airsta, but it probably all got consolidated at Cape May.


3. Camden NJ had New York Shipbuilding, which got shut down in 1967, their last major project being Kitty Hawk in 1961. But, in 1962, assuming the Soviets didn't blast it with an atomic torpedo (probably used a lot of those, along with sub delivered atomic mines, they had both in the inventory in 1962), then there would be a lot of impetus to recover equipment there. Same goes for the Brooklyn Navy Yard (it was shut down in 1966). But, the Brooklyn Yard might be in bad shape, to put it mildly.


4. There is also the Naval Ammunition Depot (Now Naval Weapons Station) in Monmouth County, NJ (Think Northern NJ) and it's from what I have heard, huge. Probably not a stretch to imagine nukes there, and probably caught a low yeild nuke for it's trouble.


5. Bayonne also probably caught a nuke, as it was the major port of embarkation for units deploying to Europe and/or Cuba from the tri-state area. I haven't found any evidence of mothballed ships but there was enough reason to nuke it for that alone.


6. There is also the Watervilet Arsenal in Albany, where the Army gets a lot of its tank guns and artillery pieces, I will bet in your timeline, there would be an impetus by Lemay to get control of this asset. Same goes with Picatanny arsenal in NJ.


7. Ok, here is where things get weird, apparently, the Soviets had used as the basis for their first SLBM, get this..the SS-1C Scud. It had a range of about 167km and was deployed on the Zulu and Golf boats beginning about 1959. Warhead yield was about 100 to 500kt. And yes, they made patrols with these weapons. Apparantly, they left the warheads on the beach, only to have them shipped once war broke out. You could use a few of these to fill in targets you need to blast.

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nmdecke 01-02-2004, 09:22 AM All great stuff! Some notes for James and Jason:


Dallas/FW--Should have checked the name of DFW, my bad. The airframe plants in Fort Worth and Dallas might be a good places to rebuild on paper, but remember that they are in the middle of an urban area. Urban areas, especially ones close to ICBM strikes, tend to collapse into chaos. With the loss of infrastructure and the populace in a frenzy, I can't see any industrial facility remaining intact for two years. Same goes with the military airfields scattered about the metro area. (For that matter, also for Jason's ammo depots in northern New Jersey) It is a good idea for a salvage mission, though, maybe from one of the Army enclaves to the north of the city. I'll think about it some more.


Pine Bluff, Karnak, Shreveport ammo plants---Yeah, need to do something with them. Any ideas? Who do you think would be in control of them and why?


Camden NJ-- I have a 6 megaton SS-7 on Phily, so I think it's safe to say that not much of Camden is still standing. Lots of high-value salvage though.


Russian atomic torps, mines and the SS-1 Scud nukes on the Zulu Vs--That's another of those things that I had to think a lot about. The Zulus have an extremely short operational range, and the horribly inaccurate Scuds even shorter. These notoriously noisy boats would have to approach to within 80 miles of the coast and then surface to prep the missiles. I just can't see any of the Zulus surviving to do that. Maybe I have bad info, but all my hunting told me that the atomic torp idea was axed by Khrushev (who hated the navy) before going into the production. It wasn't until the 1970s that nuke torps became widespread. Is that right? The mines require a sub, most likely a noisy Romeo or Whiskey, surviving the run up a coastal area crawling with ASW forces. Again, probably not much chance of that.


Albany NY...I was really trying to make most of New England away from the coastal regions staunchly CivGov, or at least very tenuously held by MilGov. I have no reasoning, just sounded like a good idea at the time. The new "governor" in Albany might not be willing to let his resources go that easily. I'd think the other governor in Buffalo would want it worse...


Brooklyn airfields...Probably all swamped under by the local populace looking for guns and ammo, but maybe not. Any ideas?


Bayonne getting nuked (and all the other "gotta nuke it" spots)... I'd love to nuke a lot more places, but I've spent all my ICBMs, probably allowed too many of the Golfs to survive long enough to fire, and let far too many old slow turboprop Bears into American airspace to add anymore nuke hits to the nation. Anymore and I'd be venturing into T2k territory...However, if you could create a really great background for a place to catch a nuke. and how it looks in 1964 and effects the local timeline, then I'd love to shoehorn it in there!



Thanks everyone for the links, but I have a similar listing of every military installation on the continent. But what I don't have are any ideas for what is happening with them in my 1964 timeline. I'm pretty much tapped out, so if you have any neat background and current situational ideas for all the airbases, forts and ammo plants that I've neglected to put in, please let me know. For example, I don't have it in front of me, but I think I put an Army unit in Texarkana, but do you have any ideas to expand on that entry? Something interesting that for a group of PCs that might be wandering through the area to discover? Again, I'd really like this project to be a group effort. I was trying in the beginning to provide a nice huge resource for adventure hooks and enough detailed background to allow players and GMs to create some good campaigns in a one-of-kind timeline. It goes without saying that this entire document is open to everyone to use and abuse (especially since most of you have already "contributed" wink-wink). I'd love to have someone run a campaign in my world, that would make all the sweat and hours spent typing worth it...


Nathan

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James1978 01-02-2004, 12:09 PM I don't disagree about chaos. The thing is that I live in Fort Worth and I just don't see parts of Dallas being a military enclave while Fort Worth is a contaminated wasteland. The Metroplex is prettty big and was even back then. I live on the west side of Fort Worth and it's a good 40-60 min drive to Dallas.


As for factories, reopening them would be next to impossible. What I was thinking was that if the government was intact enough to send units to Korea and Europe, it would have been intact enough to salvage key industrial plants. They probably sent in recovery teams to salvage machine tools and other manufacturing equipment. Maybe it's all sitting in some MilGov enclave or maybe marauders stole it. Finding it and getting it back could be an interesting adventure.


As for the Army depots, they may have been a treasure trove early on to whomever controlled them. I once read that the US kept Sherman tanks in the war-reserve stockpile into the 1960s. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but a few dozen Sherman tanks would make someone a major force in this world. There are probably a lot of Garrand rifles floating around as well as other WW II surplus.

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James1978 01-02-2004, 12:45 PM You may want to check out http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/fa...nd-control.htm, it has a listing of several FEMA bunkers, communications bunkers, and command bunkers.


http://coldwardc.homestead.com/files/index.html is also interesting


Atlas Launch Facilities - The Atlas-D and Atlas-E launch sites weren't actually silos. The missiles were stored horizontally until they were raised and fueled. These sites were above ground and were semi-hardened. These sites are fairly large and some had their own runways IIRC. Today you can buy them and remodel them into homes. Abandoned sites would make a great place for marauders or survivalists to hold out.

http://www.missilebases.com/

http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com/



Pennsylvania

Raven Rock/Site-R - This is the underground Pentagon and had been operational since 1953. It's near Waynesboro. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/fa...raven-rock.htm


Kansas

Wichita - Just across the runway from McConnel AFB is a large Boeing plant where they built all the B-47s and many of the B-52s.

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TR 01-02-2004, 01:26 PM Some additional military information that may be of assistance to you... I haven't had a chance to verify every aspect of it as it is not of my creation but a lot of what I have seen likes accurate.


I'll put in the link and a sample of what is on the page so you can decide if it suits your needs. It covers some US units and their deployments and information on NATO of course so it's a mixed bag.



http://www.tdg.nu/resources/TOE/OOBs/1946%2B/NATO.htm



NATO Armies 1950-1980, the first thirty years


by Jose-Maria Serrano


The signing of the North Atalntic Pact marked the start point for NATO


US forces in Europe 1950-1970


In 1948, the active Army was composed of the following divisions:


In Japan, as occupation Army:


1st Cavalry Division (configured as Infantry).


7th Infantry Division.


24th Infantry Division.


25th Infantry Division.


In Germany: the 1st Infantry Division, and the Constabulary, which was equivalent to an additional division.


In the Continental US (CONUS):


2d Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Washington.


3d Infantry Division, Fort Benning, Georgia....




Until Later


TR

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nmdecke 01-02-2004, 05:49 PM >>>I don't disagree about chaos. The thing is that I live in Fort Worth and I just don't see parts of Dallas being a military enclave while Fort Worth is a contaminated wasteland. The Metroplex is prettty big and was even back then. I live on the west side of Fort Worth and it's a good 40-60 min drive to Dallas. <<<


Ok, I'll buy that. My knowledge of the Dallas area consists of my Rand McNaly road atlas and wondering how they are ever going to unload ARod's contract so they can get some decent pitching...

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James1978 01-02-2004, 06:38 PM Originally posted by nmdecke



Ok, I'll buy that. My knowledge of the Dallas area consists of my Rand McNaly road atlas and wondering how they are ever going to unload ARod's contract so they can get some decent pitching...


No problem, the thing is that Dallas has the rest of the country convinced that everything in the Metroplex centers around Dallas. That's just not the case. A few years back the Census Bureau tried to lump Fort Worth and Arlington into a so-called "Dallas Combined Area". You can guess who would have gotten all the federal money if that had gone through. Another example, the Dallas Cowboys don't actually play in Dallas - they play in Irving.


Since this gazateer seems to be turning into a group project, I'm more than willing to help out with North Texas in any way I can. I'll see what else I can dig up.

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graebarde 01-02-2004, 08:10 PM I have the book Drop Shot on my book shelf next to me. <sighs> one of the few references NOT in storage 800 miles away..

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ReHerakhte 01-02-2004, 09:10 PM Another alternate history novel stemming from the Cuban Missile Crisis is 'Resurrection Day' by Brendan DuBois (first published 1999 ISBN 0-316-84866-2 for paperback or 0-316-64645-8 for hardback).

Its a journalist/detective novel set in 1972, ten years after the nukes fell. I found a lot of the imagery very good, particularly the stuff for New York which I think would compliment the Armies of the Night module well. On top of all that, I enjoyed the story too!


There's a website for the novel that explains it in a lot more detail

http://www.ResurrectionDay.com


Cheers,

Kevin

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nmdecke 01-03-2004, 08:26 AM Funny you should mention the book "Resurrection Day"...I was reading that very book about three years ago and I said to myself, "Self, that would make a kick ass timeline for a Twilight 2000-style gazetter!" And so I wrote a nifty two-page outline and then decided that I'd rather have a child instead and promptly forgot about it. Two years later, my son was two and I stumbled across that outline in the dark corners of my desk one day while looking for a lost Veggie Tales video. And here we are today. It is a pretty good book, lacking in a lot of details, but dear to my heart as it was the sharp stick that prodded me into starting this project.


My folder of stuff that you all have given me is awfully thick. Hopefully this week I can work some of it in.


For anyone interested in sending me stuff off the forum, here is my email... nmdecke@hotmail.com My spelling and grammer in this work are rather poor (I'm from Missouri so it's not my fault) so if anyone has a lot of time on their hands I could really use an editor...


Thanks again everyone, nathan

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nmdecke 01-06-2004, 07:50 AM Hello,

Since the responces have slowed down, I'm going to start reworking some of the sections to include the ideas you all have given me. I also have a five page list of other great ideas that was sent from my partner in Arizona, so hopefully in the next week or so the gazetter will grow conciderably. Now that I have seen that my efforts have not been a waste of time, I have more enthusiasm for the project. Anybody got any more good stuff for me to add? Thanks again everyone for your interest and effort, and feel free to check by the site in a week or so to see what we have come up with. nathan

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TiggerCCW UK 01-07-2004, 05:29 AM There is a hell of a lot of hard work going into this project. If only I knew anything about the US in the 1960's.........

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graebarde 01-07-2004, 08:24 AM Well I grew up in the 50's-60's America, though my focus was narrow in area. One thing I can say is the attitude of the 'general population' has changed and not for the better since then. It use to be common for neighbors to stop what they were doing to help another neighbor having trouble. Today people don't even know their neighbors until too late often.


What do you want to know about the life of the 50-60 era that I might enlighten you? (If I can if I can.)

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nmdecke 01-07-2004, 09:09 AM Graebarde,

Well, I guess the biggest question I have for you is about marauders and biker gangs. Do you think that the population of 1960s America would be as willing to turn to banditry and organized violence following a national catastrophe as much as the writers of T2K assumed that the 1990s population would? Perhaps I have erred in pouring on the biker gangs and brigand warlords in 1964? Perhaps also I have erred in having the military suffer so much desertion and internal disruptions? Was the loyalty and dedication to nation and duty stronger in the 1960s? I don't know. Where in Jasper Country are you, by the way?

nathan


ps, just changed a lot of stuff to reflect the new info that everyone has given me, thanks again. Also changed the entry for Fort Worth, Texas to give James1978's parents a better chance to survive to grow up and have him...

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James1978 01-07-2004, 03:01 PM There is one thing I would point out. In 1962 there would still be a lot of WW II and Korea vets who would range from their early 30s to mid 40s. I'd think they could have provided an experienced core to rebuild around and fight off marauders. The draft had also been going on since the 1950s and there would be a lot of men in their 20s who had done their two years and goten out. A lot of the younger ones probably got called back into service, but not all.


I've got some more links for you.

Abandoned Airfields: http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/index.htm

- This one cover a lot of old airfields that were still open or maintained in the early 1960s.


Handbook of Texas Online:

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/index.html

- This is probably more than you wanted, but it's extremely detailed and could be listed as a resource for adding some flavor to small towns and out of the way spots in adventures.


BTW, thanks for the toughts on Fort Worth. Saddly, my family is originally from the New Orleans area, so they probably still didn't do too well.

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graebarde 01-08-2004, 11:46 AM I can only speak for my locale at the time which was north central North Dakota.


Motorcycle gangs.. There were some biker groups roaming the country then, many flew the Hell's Angels colors. I know Minneapolis had/has a chapter, and there was a wearer of the colors in my area at the time. Amoung the youths, the mention of his name set hackles of alert, causing you to look over your shoulder.. until you actually met and talked to him.. I had a cousin that rode with him.. Now the cousin WAS a bad apple, but manageable. BTW the Hell's Angels were started by veterans of WW2, and MOST had blue collar jobs until the early 70s, and I imagine there are still some that do. There are more biker groups now, and a few that make the Angels look like a sunday school class.


The population, as mentioned in a following post, was made up of alot of veterans. The draft took care of that.. I think 75% of the males I knew were veterans of WW2, Korea, both, or at least two years in the service due to the draft.


Our community was pretty close knit too (there wasn't alot of TV in the area at the time, and going to town on Saturday night was THE big event of the week.) neighbors looked out for neighbors, doors were never locked, (except for buisiness in town and a few 'parinoids').. hooliganism was NOT tollerated (NOT to say it didnt occure).


Should brigands/gangs appear, they might have fun at first, but within a day or so, the community I think would have reacted. EVERY house had at least two or three firearms, mostly shotguns and deer rifles, but the owners knew how to use them and more than one was a combat vet.


General population turns to banditry.. I think the general population would not resort to it, however when the infastructure collapses, and it would, leading to hunger, it would be roving bands looking for food that would cause the most problem IMHO. What do you do when a group of say 20 starving urbanites show up at sundown wanting food and shelter.


I think most of the ruarl population would,initally anyways, try to help them, but it only takes ONE bad apple to spoil the barrel, so it could and probably WOULD turn ugly in short order. I am sure my dad would have shared with the urbanites.. at least for a while, or until someone got pushy.. THEN they get nothing.. and then it gets ugly. We were a far distance from any major urban sprawl however.


Another thing to remember is MOST of the population at this time had lived through the depression of the 30's. It would have a big bearing on their survival mentality.


I know the farms at the time were

a. smaller, mostly family farms, where the mother didn't work off the farm.


b. the farms were usually more diversified, have some livestock as well as raising crops. In my area I know many of the farmers still had teams of horses for light chores even into the late 60's. Alot of that was nostlgic, but there were a couple that used horses exclusively for their farm work.


c. MOST had large gardens for home consumption.


d. Nearly all processed some of their own foods, and had stores for several months. (we had meat and vegetables for six months, grain we had MOST of the year a supply that would last us several years if we used it ourselves.. a grain bin of wheat of 1000 bushels (60000 pounds) is about 200 man years of wheat, with wheat as the main source of food.


Today, most farms are much larger (3 times or more inmost cases, as the family farm dies); the wife is more likely to seek off farm employment to make ends meet; farms are less diversified; few farms maintain working stock, unless they are in cattle country; fewer gardens are grown (ie the wife is gone to town to work, and it's easier to sell the crop and buy processed food in town)

IMHO most farmers today would NOT fare much better than their urban cousins, except they have silos of unprocessed grains, and no way to process it generally.



Military desertions... I really don't think that would have been a problem. There would probably be a problenm with call ups later, as people were trying to survive at home. I thing the married ones would be more reluctant to go than the singles that had basically nothing to keep them there (ie sole support for the family). I think overall there was a more patriotic, morale population. Why? Well since Im on a soap box of sorts IMHO it was schools, and how they operated then. We started the day with the Pledge of Allegiance, there was still prayer in schools (though I don't recall it ever being prominent), dicipline was pretty strict (you get in trouble, you got in trouble at home again, at least in the families I was familar with.. ) corporal punishment was normal for the major offenders.. Children were spanked and told NO and it was ment.. (This is MY opinion, so no flames necessary to try and convert me ) as Im too set in my ways)


I too think there would be greater civil disturbance in the 90's over the early (pre-vietnam) 60's. The general population has grown accustomed to the 'world owes me a living' syndrome, and there is more welfare programs now than in the early 60s. Recall the riots of the 60s were led by baby boomers, NOT people that had been in the depression or even lived through ww2 as teens for the most part (yes there were some 'leaders' that fell into the pre war group but they were a minority). These same people are the 'leaders' today, so you can see where civil unrest can and would come to a head more rapidly today.


Draft revolts would be more common than desertions I think, atleast till the government collapses (what ya gonna do when the supply truck stops coming? Impossible you say? I think some of what T2K depicts is too optomistic, and in other ways too pessimistic. IT all depends on the area and time after 'the day'.




The US is a LARGE country with many different areas where people are raise differently, and have differnt ideals. I think some areas, especially the cities, (those that survived anyways) would be the source of the bandits for the most part, and motorcycle gangs.. though the gangs would be running on fumes after some period of time, and less in numbers as the population fights them off.



Sorry for the ramble. Hopefully you can glean something from it.



BTW I am in Webb City.


grae

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dawg180 01-08-2004, 12:36 PM I think the effect of the depression era folks should not be underestimated. My grandparents lived through the depression, and grandpa always had whatever tool or oddball part you needed in his garage- he never threw anything away, even if it was junk or broken, as you never know when it could be used again. It all was organized, too! I know a lot of other people whose grandparents do the same thing.


People also were much more self-dependent when it came to fixing things. Carpentry, minor plumbing and wiring, and car repair skills were a lot more common across the general population.


I think in a lot of small towns you would see WWII and Korean vets deputized into the local police force to help keep order, or even entire VFW and Foreign Legion posts as sort of a "home guard" like the Brits in WWII.


I agree with the modern mentality of "the world and society owes me." Just a look at the frivilous lawsuits over hot coffee spilled on your lap, thieves suing the homeowner who shot them and such seems to verify it....

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nmdecke 01-08-2004, 12:59 PM Thanks for the info guys, very interesting stuff. Being only 33, I have no frame of refrence for the 1960s, but it sure seems like the nation would react much differently to an atomic attack than my generation in the 1990s would. Is anyone out there thinking of running a campaign in this timeline? All that has been posted here o the forum this week would be invaluable for GMs...


BTW, Graebarde, Webb City is a nice place, I used to date a girl from Carthage. Mizzou class of '96 as well (Go Tigers!).

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graebarde 01-09-2004, 08:49 AM "BTW, Graebarde, Webb City is a nice place, I used to date a girl from Carthage. Mizzou class of '96 as well (Go Tigers!)."


Go Tigers? :P.. Ever see what a Cardinal does to a Tiger? )


Yeah we moved here last March (two months before the day of the twisters), and like the area and town. Most people here seem to have never met a stranger.


This prompts me to think what would happen in this area in a T2K timeline. Seeing how everyone responded to the numerous areas devistated with the twisters of May 4, I think there would be a massive pulling together of the communities. The amount of looting reported after the storms was very minimal compared with other areas I have heard about in the past. In Carl Junction I only heard of ONE reported case, though there may have been more.


As I work in retail, we always have our eyes out for theives. Yes there are some here, but IMO there are LESS than in other areas I have worked futher south. Maybe they use more finess, but to me that's an indication as well as to how fast someone would become a brigand after society collapsed. The ONE incident we've had in store the almost one year I've been here was reported by another CUSTOMER. Seems the population is willing to be involved and take responsability, which leads me to beleive in times of crisis, there would be, as pointed out above, a 'bonding' and the propensity to look out for the other man. At least I hope that is true, and hope we never have to find out if my theroy is true.


grae

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