New unit rumors

[kato13]

antimedic 04-20-2004, 10:57 PM Several friends of mine from the Florida National Guard that have recently returned from Iraq were saying that the regular Army may be increased by at least 2, maybe more divisions over the next couple of years. Kind of a good idea. So my question is, has anybody else heard about this, and if so, what old units are to be reactivated. And I just read that there is more talk of the draft coming back.

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shrike6 04-21-2004, 09:29 AM http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ture-force.htm


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0129-usa01.htm


http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...128-afps05.htm

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Ed the Coastie 04-21-2004, 11:10 PM Yeah, I've been hearing that too. If fact, my wife says that our phone has been ringing off the hook for the past couple of weeks because my ex-CO has been trying to get ahold of me; apparently, he has received word that our old National Guard unit -- a (VERY) light armor battalion that was disbanded a few years ago -- is supposed to be re-constituted.


I've been out of the military for well over a year now, and haven't been in that particular state for nearly 6 years now...but then again, when did that ever mean anything? If they want you bad enough, they'll get you...

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Abbott Shaull 04-25-2004, 09:52 AM Yes the US Army is looking to expand the number of Combat Brigades(Regiments) from 33 divided between 10 Divisions, 2 Armored Cavalry Regiments, 1 Seperated Light Infantry Brigade(that on paper is assigned to 10th Mountain) and 1 Seperated Airborne Brigade into 48 Combat Brigade force. Yes the 11th ACR is left out purposely, due to the fact that like the 177th Armored it replaced it really is no condition to be deployed.


I was flipping through the material I have from back when I was in the Army back in late 80's and find it quite interesting. It seems on paper the US Army that was used in existance at the time of the Persian Gulf War consisted of 2 Combat Brigdes with the 9th 'Test Bed' Division(9th Motorized in T2K game) at the time the US Army couldn't decide what this Division 'role' would be. Along with 3 Airborne Brigades(Reinforced Regiments), 4 Air Assault Brigades(3 of them Reinforced Regiments), 10 Light Infantry Brigades, 1 Infantry Brigade based in Panama which in theory would stay to guard the Canal zone in the Light category.


For heavy Brigades there were almost an even split in Regular Army units of 14 Armored and 16 Mechanized Brigades(1 Seperated). The 177th and 194th Armored Brigades were no where complete to be added as Deployable Brigades. Then you had 4 Cavalry Brigade(Regiments) in 1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade and 3 Armored Cavalry Regiments which were largely to be used as, Corps level recon and force screening units.


So by not using adding the 199th IB, 177th and 194th Amrored Brigades, or the Cavalry units there were amazing 49 Combat Brigades in the US Regular Army. Gee to think that the 33 now quoted seem to include two ACRs that were before considered to Corps Assets and the ACCB now is really Divisional-level Aviation Brigade, but still called the 6th Air Cavalry Brigde(?).

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Abbott Shaull 04-25-2004, 10:18 AM Gee it is amazing how much we forget what we already had know...lol.


Did you know the US Regular Army during the Cold War consisted of the following combat readily deployable Brigades total. 14 Armored, 16 Mechanized, 3 Airborne, 4 Air Assault, 10 Light Infantry, and 2 'Test Bed'(were organized in variety of roles depending on how the wind blew) Brigades. That was total 49 Combat Brigade organized under 18 Division HQs with 1 Seperated Brigade(Mechanized). Of those 6 Division had only 2 organic Combat Brigades in Regular Army components. Their 3rd Brigade was made up by a thing called National Guard Round-Out Brigades. So actually on paper there was only enough Brigades to go around 16 Divisions with 1 Seperated Brigade. Hmmm.... Then you had 2 Armored Brigades that were support modes and weren't near fully equip to operated a Combat Brigade. An Infantry Brigade whose duty was to protect US interest in the Panama Canal Zone. Then there were 4 Cavalry units(1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade and 3 Armored Cavalry Regiments) that were Corps level Assets.


Now post-PGW we have ended up with Army that has 2 Stryker, 9 Armored, 6 Mechanized, 4 Air Assault, 4 Airborne(1 wanna be), and 5 Light Infantry brigades that give in reality 30 true Combat Brigades along with 3 ACR that during the Cold War were considered best used as Corps Assest, but now are lumped together with the other Combat Brigades of which the 11th is the 177th Armored reflagged and would be much like the 173rd Airborne Brigade as an understrength unit.


Now it seems each Division will have 1 or 2 Brigades add over the next 3 year or so...lol Gee by that time we would have almost enough Brigades to have 16 seperate Division HQ again...lol


Abbott

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shrike6 04-25-2004, 07:56 PM Abbott,

They're going to add two additional divisions to that mix. You also have to realize the Army is going to disband 10 ADA Battalions plus reorganize 39 Field Artillery Battalions into other units to achieve this goal. The Modular Division will have 4 combat brigades as opposed to today's three.


Also your Brigade counts are off. The US Army of 1989 had 18 Armored, 13 Mech Infantry, 11 (1 understrength) Light Infantry Brigade, 4 Air Assault, 3 Airborne, and 2 Test Bed Brigades plus 3 ACRs. This number includes all active divisions plus the 193rd IB, 194th AB, 197th IB, 2nd ACR, 3rd ACR, and 11th ACR. It doesn't include NG/USAR RO units, 177th AB and the Berlin Brigade. The Present Army has 10 Armored, 6 Mechanized, 4 Light, 3 (1 transitioning) Strykers, 4 Air Assault, 4 (1 understrength) Airborne Brigades plus 1 ACR and 1 ACR (L). This number includes all active Divisions and the 172nd Stryker Brigade, 173rd Airborne Brigade, 2nd ACR (L) and the 3rd ACR. The number doesn't include the 7th ID, 24th ID and 11th ACR.



Also the 9th ID was in the midst of being inactivated during Gulf War I. The inactivation process began in 1987 when 2nd Brigade 9th Infantry Division was inactivated. When XVIII Airborne Corps was fully deployed to Saudi Arabia, the 9th had only 40% of its assigned strength. The 9th was being cannabilized to bring units heading to the Gulf up to strength. By December of 1990 the colors of the 9th were rolled up and the remaining brigade was redesignated the 199th IB (Motor). The 199th IB was redesignated 2nd ACR(L) and moved to Fort Polk, LA in mid 1992. The 199th IB was not an active brigade between its inactivation in 1970 at Fort Benning and its reactivation in 1990.



My understanding of the 194th AB is that it had the same role as the 197th IB had and was deployable. In fact the 194th AB had a NATO misson and had equipment stored at a POMCUS site in Europe (POMCUS site 3 - Pirmasens, FRG).


One other note is that the 6th Air Cavalry Combat Brigade is normally counted as an Aviation brigade and not as a Cavalry regiment. The 6th ACCB is still active today; it is in Korea.

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Abbott Shaull 04-25-2004, 10:16 PM Sorry I didn't realized I had already posted... Must have hit the wrong buttons when I went to edit...

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shrike6 04-25-2004, 10:39 PM That's cool, the reason why I know this is that I've been doing alot of research on OOBs lately.

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Abbott Shaull 04-25-2004, 10:40 PM Thank you for clarifying some of the information that I had messed up on. Like I said in the post that was information that from variuos articles dating back to 1988. It seems that I had some Mechanized Brigades mislabeled that should have been Armored Brigades. Seems some units I had missed as well. Okay I thought the Infantry Brigade in Panama was flagged the 199th. Again it seems I wrong. As for the 194th the information I had didn't list any support or Field Artillery units. Then again those would be simple to pick-up in Europe from Reserve units already assigned to NATO.


I am just glad to see that decentralized the Divisional Organization. This is something that should have been shown needed to be done during Desert Shield/Storm. IIRC several of the Heavy Divisions were pieced together most notable were the 24th Mechanized and 1st Cavalry which took control of the 197th Mechanized and a Brigade from the 5th Mechanized respectably. While some of the NATO deployed Division also borrowed from other NATO Divisions when they deployed to the Persian Gulf. Don't recall which units, but I do remember reading of some cases.


As the Operation Iraqi Freedom, you can't always use cookie cutter Divisions to fight any new war. The operational force has to be deployed to fit the needs of the fight on hand.


Abbott

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shrike6 04-25-2004, 11:09 PM I like the decentralized division too. The brigade down in Panama was the 193rd IB It was configured as a Light Infantry Brigade. Although it was understrength, it had only 2 active combat battalions (1 airborne, 1 Lt Inf.). It would be rounded out by a USAR Lt Inf Battalion. Check here for the 194th AB's support elements: http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread...threadid=13931


As for the lineages, your right on the 197th, It became 3rd Bde, 24th ID and is now 3rd Bde, 3rd ID. Actually 1st (Tiger) Brigade, 2nd Armored Division became 3rd Brigade, 1st Cav Div. The 5th ID became 2nd Armored Division then moved to Ft Hood, TX where it was eventually redesignated 4th Infantry Division.


GW/1995/Today


197th IB /3rd Bde, 24th ID /3rd Bde, 3rd ID

1st Bde, 2nd AD /3rd Bde, 1st CD /3rd Bde, 1st CD

5th ID /2nd AD /4th ID

1st Bde, 5th ID /1st Bde 2nd AD /1st Bde, 4th ID

2nd Bde, 5th ID /2nd Bde, 2nd AD /2nd Bde, 4th ID

256th Bde, 5th ID /256th Bde, 2nd AD /256th IB (Sep)

3rd Bde, 4th ID /3rd Bde, 4th ID /3rd Bde, 4th ID

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shrike6 04-26-2004, 12:01 AM I think I know why you mislabeled the brigades. Some Divisions aren't what they are labeled. Let me break it down for you


Armored Divisions (2 Armored Brigades, 1 Mech Brigade):


1st Armored Division

2nd Armored Division

3rd Armored Division

1st Infantry Division (Mech)

4th Infantry Division (Mech)


Armored Divisions (2 Armored Brigades)


1st Cavalry Division


Mechanized Division (1 Armored Brigade, 2 Mech Brigade)


3rd Infantry Division

8th Infantry Division



Mechanized Division (1 Armored Brigade, 1 Mech Brigade)


5th Infantry Division

24th Infantry Division


Light Infantry Division (3 Lt Inf Bde)


7th Infantry Division

25th Infantry Division


Light Infantry Division (2 Lt Inf Bde)


6th Infantry Division

10th Mountain Division


Medium Division (1 Armored Brigade, 1 Mech Bde, 1 AA Bde)


2nd Infantry Division


Airborne Division (3 Abn Bde)


82nd Airborne Division


Air Assault Division (3 AA Bde)


101st Air Assault Division


Motorized Division (2 Test Bed Bde)


9th Infantry Division

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Abbott Shaull 04-26-2004, 08:46 AM Yeah, that is where my confusion lays..lol...


To think one would expect to find two Mechanized Brigades in a Mechanized Division...lol...


Yes, I was thinking and funny thing is where does the 75th Infantry Regiment fit in. In the game it appears that the entire Regiment was sent to the Middle East, but realistically we all know that the Battalions more or less operate independent and considered to be part of Special Operation Command. I would think one Battalion would go to Europe, one to the Middle East, and Ft Lewis would head for Korea. At the same time 75th HQ and Training unit would crank out new Battalions from mid-1996 after seeing how the war between Soviet Union and China was going.


Also it seems that game ignored the 3rd or 4th-325th Airborne Infantry Task Force based in Italy. Yes I know in the PG it was the 3rd Battalion, but at the time of game publish it was 4th Battalion. After the Gulf War the Battalion was reflagged as a Battaion from a Parachute Infantry Regiment. While the 3rd-325th rejoined the Regiment at Bragg as the 4th-325th was reflagged to the 3rd-325th. This Task Force in Italy was the base of what became the 173rd after adding another Parachute Infantry Battalion, adding Artillery to a Battalion level and making similiar adjustments to other units that were supported the Task Force.


That is the thing that really puzzle me. Even WWII we had started to build up as soon as 1939-40 when most of the Active Army Infantry Division were reorganized from what they called Square to Triangle Divisions. Basically it 2 Brigades with 2 Infantry Regiments each to 3 Infantry Regiments operating in Regimental Combat Teams. With most of the Brigade HQs then being used to form HQs of the new Division that recieved orphan Regiments and of the new Armored Division that started to be formed at this time too.


I can really see many bases being over-stuffed with troops as the US would probably start to train new troops in the event that the war in Asia would spill over into Korea or Europe. I could also see the 6th, 7th, and 25th Light being deployed to Korea by Mid 1996 as well as the all three active Marine Division there to bolster the defense there. For it seems by game standards that North Koreans and China weren't the best of allies at that time. I can't see Russia really worried about making life easier in North Korea. Which I could see the North Korean Army starting to cross the DMZ in what they would see another time to reunified Korea under the North Korea banner while the UN is more concern about seperating the Chinese and Soviet Armies. I can really see the 6th Light being rushed to help out in the Pacific Northwest front after Alaska was invaded.


Another problem with original game is that 10th Mountain Division like the 24th Mechanized Division was part of the XVIII Airborne Corps. So I can see this Division being in under Central Command than in Germany and then in Alaska.


So really by the time the shooting war started in Europe I could see the Divisions that would have Round-out Brigades not really needing them due to the fact new Brigades had been raised and were these Divisions. The Round-out Brigades then would be like orphan Regiments of 1939-40 era and used as the base for new Divisional units being raised. I always thought it was odd that 11th on up to the 23rd Divisions were not raised or attempted to be raised in the time period between 1996 and 1997 even with having to get National Guard units called up and pushed overseas.


I get off my soap box now...lol

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TR 04-26-2004, 06:06 PM It's a small world Abbott, I spent a lot of time creating OOB's recaculating the deployments the 75th Infantry Rangers as it made no sense to send them ALL to the Middle East. I even created some new Ranger Battalions for further deployments.


Heck I even fooled around with the LRSU/LRRP unit concept being done at the Battalion (etc) level in country to account for the scarcity of the Rangers deployments.


For the game there was a lot that didn't add up. For the real military, well it still has a way to go to be balanced out again after all the unit deactivations.


Such Is Life...



TR

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Louie 04-27-2004, 03:47 AM Abbott,


The 10th Mtn. Div. (Lt.) had a NATO mission of reinforcing Norway so it probably would have went there.( no need for a light divison in CENTCOM ).

The 9th ID ( formed as a true motorised division with Strykers or Humvees ) would probably go to CENTCOM.

As for the activation of 3rd Bde.'s, that's a possibility since a Stop Loss order is probably issued at least by the summer of 1996 after the Soviet offensive in China stalls ( Soviets aren't winning so who knows what they'll try, better be safe than sorry ). Also a Limited National Emergency as in WWII perhaps, maybe the summer of 1996, if not, definetly by the fall ( the first ARNG divisions start getting activated in August ) which gives you the pretext to start the draft.

As for the new divisions, try maybe the 11th ( Airborne in WWII ), the 17th ( again Airborne ) or the 23rd ( WWII & Vietnam service ). Other than those divisions the others have no or little history or tradition to speak of ( which is big in the U.S. Army ). Try reforming National Guard Divisions, almost all fought in both World Wars and have great battle records. And of course the Armoured Divisions up until the 9th I believe have decent WWII history behind them.

The 1st Marine Division is oriented to CENTCOM, 2nd MARDIV to Europe, specifically Norway and the MED, & 3rd MARDIV to Korea.

I've been vague so if you have any questions feel free to email.

Louie

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Abbott Shaull 04-27-2004, 08:56 AM LOL...


Well I had been working on something that would take into the realistic learned lessons from the PGW(key word is REALISTIC) that have only been relearned in the last year.


First off the Divisional HQ were modularized as with the 3 Combat Brigades of each Division. Each combat Heavy Brigade still recieved a Engineer Battalion as result from lessons learned in Desert Shield/Storm.


Each Division still had Combat Support Brigade. The Main Support battalion along with other Division assets were all lumped here including a reinforced Artillery Battalion that absorb the old Artillery Brigade HQ, with the aquisition group, Missile Battery and an ADA Composite Battery. Also there is Combat Engineering Battalion assigned to at this level. The Division would also have Military Intelligence Battalion HQ and 1 Company which would serve as the holding Battalions as Brigades were added or move from the Division HQ.


Each Division also still had Aviation Brigade with Brigade HQ, 1 Attack Helicopter HQ with Support Company, 1 Air Cavalry Squadron HQ with Support Troop, Division Cavalry Squadron HQ with Support Troop, Utility Helicopter(Transport) Battalion HQ, and Aviation Support Group. The Battalions and Squadrons would form HQ for composite units as Combat Brigades were either added to or moved from the various Divisional Controls.


At the Combat Brigade level each Brigade depending on if it was Heavy or Light was organized with 3 Combat Battalions, 1 Field Artillery Battalion, 1 Engineer Battalion/Company, 1 Forward Support Battalion, 1 MI Compnay, 1 Air Cavalry Troop, 1 Attack Helicopter Company, 1 Brigade Cavalry Troop, and 1 ADA Composite Battery.


TBC

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Abbott Shaull 04-27-2004, 09:15 AM Then I moved around some of the units....


Cavalry


1st Cavalry Division stayed at Fort Hood after the PGW where it absorbed the 6th Air Cavalry Brigade as it 3rd tactical Brigade. This Brigade in itself absorbed a Aviation Battalion(UH-60) and 1 Battalion of Air Assault Infantry as well as other Combat Brigade sub-units with exception of Aviational assets normally found in a Combat Brigade. It also exchange one Armored Brigade with the Mechanized Brigade on post. Thus giving the 1st Cavalry it own unique organization with 1 Armored Brigade(Cavalry), 1 Mechanized Brigade(Cavalry), 1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade, 1 Division Support Brigade, 1 Aviation Brigade. This Division retained it role to be used to reinforce Europe.


Armored.


1st Armored Division was still based Germany with 2 Armored Brigades, 1 Mechanized Brigade, 1 Division Support Brigade, and 1 Aviation Brigade.


2nd Armored Division moved to Fort Carson when the 4th Mechanized was reflagged the 2nd Armored. It had 4 Combat Brigades with the 1st and 4th Brigade Mechanized at Fort Carson. 2nd Brigade and 3rd were Armored with the 2nd at Fort Hood and 3rd at Fort Carson. This Division would only deployed with 3 of the 4 Brigades with the other being used to reinforce another Division or to be used as Corps level reserve.


3rd Armored Division remained in Germany with 2 Armored and 1 Mechanized Brigades.


TBC

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shrike6 04-27-2004, 10:39 AM Just to add to Louie's list of additional units, you can add the 12th Infantry Division (WWII) http://www.ranger95.com/divisions/Ph...t_hist_ww2.htm as well. Then you've also got the Separate brigades like 196th, 198th, 199th Infantry Brigades (all Vietnam) as well as the 173rd Airborne Brigade (Vietnam). For ACRs you could add the 14th (WWII) or the 10th (Civil War, Spanish American War, etc).



Originally posted by Abbott Shaull


1st Cavalry Division stayed at Fort Hood after the PGW where it absorbed the 6th Air Cavalry Brigade as it 3rd tactical Brigade. This Brigade in itself absorbed a Aviation Battalion(UH-60) and 1 Battalion of Air Assault Infantry as well as other Combat Brigade sub-units with exception of Aviational assets normally found in a Combat Brigade. It also exchange one Armored Brigade with the Mechanized Brigade on post. Thus giving the 1st Cavalry it own unique organization with 1 Armored Brigade(Cavalry), 1 Mechanized Brigade(Cavalry), 1 Air Combat Cavalry Brigade, 1 Division Support Brigade, 1 Aviation Brigade. This Division retained it role to be used to reinforce Europe.





Ah revisiting the TRICAP Division. That's funny that the 6th ACCB should return to the beginning.


http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lin.../chapter13.htm


After returning from Vietnam the 1st Cavalry Division had been given two primary missions: evaluate the interaction of armor, mechanized infantry, airmobile infantry, and air cavalry (armed helicopters); and fill the role of an armored division in the strategic reserve force. To cover the second mission, the division continued to use National Guard round-out units, which had originally been designated for the 1st Armored Division-the unit that the 1st Cavalry Division replaced at Fort Hood in 1971. To evaluate the interaction of armor, air cavalry, and mechanized and airmobile infantry, the "First Team" was organized under new tables (Chart 42) http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lin...ages/c13f3.jpg that included resources for an air cavalry combat brigade (ACCB). This was not to be the type of brigade the Howze Board had suggested in 1962, which was to be a completely air-fighting unit, but one that troops in Vietnam and Europe had been testing under limited conditions as a combined arms assault unit. With the division combining armor, infantry, and air cavalry in one organization, Westmoreland coined the term "TRICAP" (triple capability) to describe it.15



During the evaluation of TRICAP two views emerged about the structure of an air cavalry combat brigade. Some planners saw it primarily as a separate antiarmor brigade with infantry and air cavalry integrated into attack helicopter squadrons without organic support. Others desired the brigade to be a strong, well-balanced, versatile organization with attack helicopter, infantry, reconnaissance, artillery, and combat support units that could perform a variety of missions, including an antitank role. During the summer of 1972 Vice Chief of Staff

Bruce Palmer noted that a brigade consisting of only attack helicopter squadrons was an expensive organization. (The table for such a proposed squadron called for 88 (45 attack, 27 observation, and 16 utility) helicopters. Therefore he did not envision it as an independent strike force. Nevertheless, he directed further development of an attack helicopter squadron because of concerns voiced by General Michael S. Davison, the commander of U.S. Army, Europe, and Seventh Army. In Europe Soviet armor forces greatly outnumbered their NATO counterparts, and Davison needed some sort of long-range capability that could destroy, disrupt, or at least delay enemy mechanized units behind the main battlefield. Following the development of the squadron, Palmer believed that the planners could sort out the matter of whether the brigade should be assigned to a division or a corps. 16



By the end of 1972 the course of the TRICAP/ACCB studies appeared set. The Combat Developments Command recommended reorganizing the 1st Cavalry Division to consist of two armored brigades (with two mechanized infantry and four armor battalions divided between them) and one air cavalry combat brigade. The latter, to be employed as a part of the division or independently, was to consist of an airmobile infantry battalion and two attack helicopter squadrons. The brigade was to have no organic support battalion. Round-out battalions continued to be assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division so that it could deploy as a full armored division along with the air cavalry combat brigade. 17



Before the ink dried on the new instructions, Abrams decided to reorganize the air cavalry combat brigade as a separate unit for employment at corps level and to make the division exclusively an armored unit. With one organic brigade organized as air cavalry, the 1st Cavalry Division with only two mechanized infantry and four armor battalions lacked the necessary ground-gaining and holding ability of a normal armored division. On 21 February 1975 the Army thus organized the 6th Cavalry Brigade (Air Combat) at Fort Hood, Texas. The first of its type, the brigade consisted of a headquarters and headquarters troop, an air cavalry squadron (without the armored cavalry troop), two attack helicopter battalions, a support battalion, and a signal company. Strictly an air unit, the brigade's mission was to locate, disrupt, and destroy enemy armored and mechanized units by aerial combat power. In the summer of that year the 1st Cavalry Division was reorganized wholly as an armored division with four armor and four mechanized infantry battalions in the Regular Army. One mechanized infantry and two armor battalions in the National Guard continued to round out the division.18

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Abbott Shaull 04-27-2004, 10:39 AM Well I think you get the hint... I kept all 18 Divisional HQ active. Those Division with Round-out Brigade had those Brigde change to Seperated Brigades. The 6th Light and 10th Mountain were kept as 2 Light Infantry Brigade units. The 9th Mechanized HQ was transferred to Middle East to take over command of the forward deployed Mechanized Brigade and Armored Brigade. Later these Brigades were change back to Motorized units with Stryker-type vehicles and during the war it had 2 Assault Gun Battalions, 3 Heavy Motorized battalions, and 4 Light Motorized Battalions. The 4th Mechanized and 2nd Armored were re-flagged, with the 4th Division moving to Fort Lewis.


Also several of the Divisions had recieved a 4th Brigade which for the most part were forward commands. The notable excepts were 2nd Infantry, 4th Mechanized, 6th Light, 9th Motorized, 10th Mountain, and 24th Mechanized by 1996. The 4th Brigades for the 4th and 24th Mechanized were being trained when they had to be deployed.


Also starting in late 1996 as units left their bases the 11th-23rd Infantry Division(1 Air Assault, 2 Airborne, 1 Infantry, 1 Motorized, 4 Light, and 6 Mechanized) and 3 Armored Divisions in US and Europe. Some of these units formed quite hastily since they took over some of the 4th Combat Brigades from several divisions in Europe and the Middle East all was needed was the HQ assets to be built. Several of the Divisions would be formed at bases such as Fort Jackson, Fort Sill, and Fort Dix and other such Training post. They wouldn't have the same TO&E as those of the Regular Army, but close enough so their organization would be similiar. These units were formed at several bases that also were preparing National Guard and Reserve troops to be ship. In early 1998 the last of these units were at the various fronts making room for Reserve(Training) Divisions to be activated.


I also had the Ranger School kick into high gear too. They had a jump start starting in 1995. By the time war started they had already added a 4th Battalion and shortly in 1997 they had organized the 5th Battalion. By 1998 6th Battalion joined the OOB. 1st, 4th, 5th Battalions had been mistakenly lumped as the 75th Ranger Regiment in the Middle East and led to the 2nd Battalion in Korea and 3rd Battalion in Europe to be over looked. The 6th had fought both in the Pacific Northwest and in Southwest Deserts against the Mexican Army.


Abbott

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Abbott Shaull 04-27-2004, 10:40 PM Well I had always thought that the 1st Cavalry much like the 2nd Infantry deserve it own unique make-up and knowing that after the Vietnam war it had similiar Organization for a brief time before the 6th was made seperate and the 155th MS NG Brigade took it place.


That way it could be move to the middle east or go to NATO. In Europe it would provide a triple threat much the same way 2nd does in Korea. Or it could be used in the Middle East as another Heavy Division for the 3rd Army.


Abbott

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shrike6 04-30-2004, 05:47 PM Abbott,

I really like your outside the box thinking on organization. You should talk to Graebarde sometime he has some interesting concepts as well. Makes the way I went with Orbats in Twilight seem rather vanilla. For my own version I tried to find a balance between IRL stuff and Twilight canon. In my version the Army learned from the Gulf War that it needed a division that was inbetween the current light and heavy divisions. It needed units that were more rapidly deployable than the current Heavy Division but provided more firepower than current Light Divisions. It was decided that 9 brigade sized motorized units (3 active, 6 NG) would be needed in addition to the 199th IB. The equipment to be issued to these new motorized units would be off the shelf technologies (M8 AGS, LAV-25, Hum-Vees, FAVs). The first motorized unit to be formed would be 14th ACR (Motorized) due XVIII Airborne Corps need for a initial entry/recon/screening force. Followed in 1994 by 1st Brigade 9th ID and 2nd Bde 9th ID (note 199th IB was redesignated 3rd Bde 9th ID upon that Divisions reactivation). In 1995 the Motorized concept was brought to the National Guard by transforming the 56th Bde 28th ID followed by 2nd Bde 28th ID, then 55th Bde 28th ID. The schedule for 1996 was supposed to be 33rd IB, 66th IB and 76th IB but only two of those three brigades (33rd IB and 66th IB) were transformed. The third Brigade (76th IB) was delayed a year due to current world events than cancelled althogether due to Americas entry into the war. --------- more later

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Abbott Shaull 05-01-2004, 05:33 AM Well that is half of the fun for adjusting for PGW and Break up Yugoslavia and introducing NATO troops into that Country as well accounting for the downfall of the wall...lol So on and so on...


I have the a 1993 Revolution in happening in Russia starting as Coup attempt in Moscow that take holds and then Russia attempts and almost completely rebuild as the Russia Confederation which in just a prop for what is more or less the Soviet Union minus the Baltic State which haven't fallen in control of former Communists turn politicans...


Then you just tweek the Light Infantry Divisions from V1 US Army Guide had 1 Assault Gun and 1 Light Motorized Battalion and turn another Light Infantry Battalion into a Heavy Motorized Battalion and you have not quite the organization of the Stryker Brigade, but you have something close to what the game presented... So on and so forth...


Abbott

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pmulcahy 05-01-2004, 11:53 PM Here's something interesting: Today, 200 Marines in the South Texas area who had been out of service for 2 years or less got calls "asking" them to return to duty. (Most of them were part of the Reserve Recon unit that is based here in town.)


This is the sort of thing one could expect in the early-to-mid-years of the Twilight War, I would think, with it accelerating as time goes by and losses mount.

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Abbott Shaull 05-02-2004, 09:37 AM You know that would happen probably fairly early with a fighting war in Europe, Middle East and Korea at the same time. Also I can see Airborne and Air Assault Troops who have been out less than year, be called back to the 82nd or 101st as replacement or to the new formations being trained at Bragg and Campbell.

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shrike6 05-03-2004, 05:10 PM Can't argue with Paul on his logic. That's the way I see it as well.

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shrike6 05-03-2004, 05:35 PM Continued from above


My motorized Divisions had 2 Assault Gun, 4 Heavy Motorized Inf., and 2 Lt Attack Battalions. These were arranged in 2 different Styles of Brigades, the Heavy Motorized and Light Attack Brigades. The Heavy Motorized Brigades (2nd and 3rd Bde 9th ID; 2nd and 56th Bde 28th ID; and 33rd IB SEP) contained 1 Assault Gun Battalion and 2 Heavy Motorized Battalions. The Light Attack Brigades (1st Bde 9th ID, 55th Bde 28th ID, and 66th IB SEP) contained 2 Light Attack Battalions and 1 Heavy Motorized Battalion.

The motorized Divisions' Aviation Brigades (9th Cavalry Bde (AC) 9th ID and 52nd Cavalry Brigade (AC) 28th ID) contained 1 Divisional Cavalry Squadron, 2 Attack Helicopter Battalion (AH-1) and 1 Utility Helicopter Battalion.

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Abbott Shaull 05-04-2004, 10:34 AM Actually speeching of the Motorized units...


In my OOB I had the 9th with 2 Assault Gun Infantry Battalions, 3 Heavy Motorized Battalions, and 4 Light Motorized Battalions. 1st and 2nd Brigade(Heavy Motorized) had 1 Assault Gun Infantry Battalion, 1 Heavy Motorized Battalion, and 1 Light Motorized Battalion. 3rd Brigade(Light Motorized) then had 1 Heavy and 2 Light Motorized Battalions. In the Light Division they had 1 Brigade organized as Heavy Motorized. In certain NG Division it was Light Motorized.


These Battalions were based off the Assault Gun Battalion and the Light Motorized Battalions in V1 US Vehicle Guide with slight modification as:


Assault Gun Infantry Battalion

2 Assault Gun Companies

1 Heavy Motorized Company

1 Light Motorized Company


Heavy Motorized Battaion(Based of Light Motorized)

1 Assault Gun Company

2 Heavy Motorized Companies

1 Light Motorized Company


Light Motorized Battalion

add 1 Assault Gun Company


So actually these were more or less true Task Force oriented units. I dropped the Fast Attack concept due to the fact lack of protection and seemed even Special Operation units didn't even want the FAV in either the two man version or the three man versions. I did keep them though in the recon platoons with 4 FAVs(3 man version) and 4 Motorcycles operating in pairs. This way each Brigade of Motorized had at least 3 Assault Gun Companies and 4 LAV-25/Stryker Companies in their mix.


The 82nd Airborne Light Armored Battalion was reorganized along the Armored Cavalry Squadron line with 4 Armored Cavarly Troop. Each battalion was had Platoon task to them and the 4 Troop served with the HQ as part of the Aviation Brigade.


Abbott

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shrike6 05-04-2004, 08:24 PM My mistake I must have misread the Light Attack Battalions should be Light Motorized. Also in the Motorized, and Light Infantry Divisions; the Divisional Cavalry Squadrons were configured as follows:


HQ Troop

2 M8 AGS (Command)

4 LAV-C2 (Staff)

9 M93 Fox (NBC Recon Platoon)


2 Ground Troops, each

1 LAV-C2

3 M1064 Mortar Carriers

9 M8 AGS

12 LAV- 25


2 Air Troops, each

6 OH-58Cs

4 AH-1s or OH-58Ds


The Assault Gun Battalions are configured as follows


HQ Company:

2 M8 AGS (Command)

4 LAV-C2 (Staff)

6 LAV-25 (Scout Platoon)

6 M1064 Mortar Carriers

6 Stingers


4 Tank Companies, each:

14 M8 AGS

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