Accelerated Pre-War Platform Development

[kato13]

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davidns84

Accelerated Pre-War Platform Development

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I'm new here, so I just thought I would put out my feelers with a few ideas and questions.

Many of the advanced weapons platforms we're seeing rolled out by the US and other first world military powers are the product of development projects that began as far back as the early eighties. While the inertia of Cold War development continued as late as the mid-90s (during which time functional prototypes were sometimes rolled out), many of them were slowed or stalled with peacetime development schedules and the cutting of defense budgets. In the lead up to WWIII (depending on which timeline you use) what technologies or platforms on the Soviet or US/NATO side might have seen a boost in their budget and an acceleration in their development?

I was thinking the V-22 Osprey (languishing in development since the 80s) might have seen a rollout in '96 or '97. The F-22 might have been deployed in '98-'99, along with the RAH-66 Comanche. Some features of the Land Warrior program might have also seen a more aggressive push. On the Soviet end, I think they would have started converting Su-27s into Su-37s with refit packages, expanded the deployment of the AN-94 assault rifle, and probably revived research and production of the ekranoplan series of ground effect aircraft.


davidns84





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General Pain
In the bizniz of putting warheads to foreheads..

regarding the osprey v-22

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this is actually a WW2 design by the germans

http://www.luft46.com/misc/wes1003.html
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of good is for evil men to do nothing." - General Pain


General Pain


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Raellus

Ah, one of my favorite topics.

BTW, welcome to the board david.

The Stryker series of LAVs would no doubt be around c.2000. The G36 rifle would be fielded by the Bundeswher. The Russian BMP-T, "tank support" vehicle would probably enter service as well. I don't know about the Comanche. I think the U.S. would concentrate on increasing production of the tried-and-true Apache, but it's possible they'd still push the Comanche through. The cancelled Crusader SP gun would probably see new life as well.

I'm sure that I'm forgetting quite a few items. This has been a frequent topic of discussion on these boards since I joined about a year ago.
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Raellus





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chico20854

Welcome David!

In the stuff I've written up I've assumed some of those systems are fielded.

There is one squadron of F-22s serving in the USAF (in Europe).
Likewise, the heavy attack squadron aboard the USS Enterprise flies the A-11 strike aircraft (and there is a shoreside training/readiness squadron).
The USMC fields a single squadron of V-22s.

Further conversions are planned for as the war continues, but the US faces the situation of reducing production of an existing system (such as the F-15E or A-6F) to ramp up production of a new system or of waiting for new prodction facilities to come on line (which is only starting to happen when the TDM occurs). Likewise, to convert units to the new system requires pulling them out of operations for conversion training, which could be disastrous at many stages of the war. So the new systems see limited service during the conventional phase (pre-strategic exchange) of the war.

On the armor side, I use a mix of v1 vehicle guide vehicles (like the M757 Blazer ADA vehicle) and some of the other interesting items off of Paul's web site (such as the C-G Stingray II).


chico20854


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davidns84

Thanks for the welcome, guys. Stuff like this is my meat and potatoes, so thanks for the responses. I like to respond section by section, so excuse the numerous quotations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus
The Stryker series of LAVs would no doubt be around c.2000.




I can't find when the first prototype rolled out, but it entered service in May '02, so I would say so.


Quote:
The G36 rifle would be fielded by the Bundeswher.




They started rolling that out in '97, which means you could probably have moved up production and development by a couple of years. The war lighting a fire under the German government's butt, a full refit for the Bundeswher could have been done by Q1 '97.


Quote:
The Russian BMP-T, "tank support" vehicle would probably enter service as well.



They probably skipped right over the BTR-T, then.


Quote:
I don't know about the Comanche. I think the U.S. would concentrate on increasing production of the tried-and-true Apache, but it's possible they'd still push the Comanche through.



You're not too far off. The main reason given for its cancellation in '04 was the need to renovate and upgrade aging Apaches. I think it's arguable that it was a ripple effect from the Clinton-era tightening of the budgetary belt.

Another part of the reason, though, that the Comanche was canceled is that it was viewed as an increasingly expensive and irrelevant product of Cold War doctrine, especially post-9/11. Obviously, if you're facing a resurgent Soviet Union, that is no longer going to be the case.


Quote:
The cancelled Crusader SP gun would probably see new life as well.



I'm not sure about the Crusader. Research on it didn't begin until '95 and the first prototype didn't roll out until '99. Moving everything up a year, you would probably have seen production of the first few dozen field models by '99.


Quote:
I'm sure that I'm forgetting quite a few items. This has been a frequent topic of discussion on these boards since I joined about a year ago.



I'll start searching around for those threads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854
In the stuff I've written up I've assumed some of those systems are fielded.

There is one squadron of F-22s serving in the USAF (in Europe).
Likewise, the heavy attack squadron aboard the USS Enterprise flies the A-11 strike aircraft (and there is a shoreside training/readiness squadron).
The USMC fields a single squadron of V-22s.




Along with those aircraft, I think it you could assume that there are equal or greater numbers in various states of construction back in the US.


Quote:
Further conversions are planned for as the war continues, but the US faces the situation of reducing production of an existing system (such as the F-15E or A-6F) to ramp up production of a new system or of waiting for new prodction facilities to come on line (which is only starting to happen when the TDM occurs).



I think several things would offset this.

1. The fairly rapid expansion of production capacity as companies hire thousands of new workers and start increasing work shifts.

2. Civilian and consumer products would go on the backburner.

3. Elements of each platform would almost certainly be sub-contracted to smaller American companies and probably quite a few in Canada.


Quote:
Likewise, to convert units to the new system requires pulling them out of operations for conversion training, which could be disastrous at many stages of the war. So the new systems see limited service during the conventional phase (pre-strategic exchange) of the war.



I think it could be done in staggered rotation as the aircraft came up for maintenance. It would certainly strap you for time, but I imagine once you had the kinks worked out, it wouldn't be unlike how they started turning out liberty ships every four days during WWII.


Quote:
On the armor side, I use a mix of v1 vehicle guide vehicles (like the M757 Blazer ADA vehicle) and some of the other interesting items off of Paul's web site (such as the C-G Stingray II).



Do you happen to have a link to Paul's website?


davidns84





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kato13

http://www.pmulcahy.com/

Check the BEST VEHICLES THAT NEVER WERE http://www.pmulcahy.com/best_stuff_that_never_was/best_vehicles_that_never_were.htm

for a ton of canceled models.


kato13





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thefusilier

Whats the name of Germany's newest SP Arty? I can't remember its name but I saw it on a documentary, and that thing can outshoot anything else right now... SP or towed. What year did those come out?
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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Radar0313
Fire in the hole!

Panzerhaubitze 2000 (PzH 2000) ? If so, it might have seen the same show on it as you did. It had a basic 18 mile range that could be extended out to around 35 miles with specialized rounds. I don't recall them talking about the round but I figure it was some sort of rocket assisted round.

What found that was amazing was the simultanous impact thing. I forgot the technical term for it but one gun could fire like three to five shots and an onboard computer would calculate the tragectory so that all the rounds impacted the target at roughly the exact same time.

The company that makes them received the order for 185 in 1996. The first deliveries of the unit arrived in July 1998. Total German Army requirements were 450 units but I am not sure if they have all those or not. The Greek Army received some in 2003 and 4. The Italians ordred 70 and have been receiving them since 2005 with 08 being the scheduled completion time. he Dutch want 57 and started receiving them in 2005 with 09 the completion time.

Sorry, getting carried away again.
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Will
Not as lean, or as mean, but always a Marine.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


Radar0313





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thefusilier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar0313
Panzerhaubitze 2000 (PzH 2000) ? If so, it might have seen the same show on it as you did. It had a basic 18 mile range that could be extended out to around 35 miles with specialized rounds. I don't recall them talking about the round but I figure it was some sort of rocket assisted round.

What found that was amazing was the simultanous impact thing. I forgot the technical term for it but one gun could fire like three to five shots and an onboard computer would calculate the tragectory so that all the rounds impacted the target at roughly the exact same time.

The company that makes them received the order for 185 in 1996. The first deliveries of the unit arrived in July 1998. Total German Army requirements were 450 units but I am not sure if they have all those or not. The Greek Army received some in 2003 and 4. The Italians ordred 70 and have been receiving them since 2005 with 08 being the scheduled completion time. he Dutch want 57 and started receiving them in 2005 with 09 the completion time.

Sorry, getting carried away again.



Yeah thats it, thanks Radar... probably same show. The rate of fire from the auto loader was simply amazing.

Another weapon... what about the Sizzler SS-N-27B? Here is an article stating that the US Navy is unsure they can stop this carrier killer missile.

There has been alot of debate (Alaska invasion and Kola naval disaster for example) where making the cannon time line has been difficult due to American naval power superiority. I'm not sure when this missile came out, but it might be a bit of 'ammo' for fleshing out how the US lost a few carriers.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=akO7Y_ORw538&refer=home
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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pmulcahy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar0313
Panzerhaubitze 2000 (PzH 2000) ? If so, it might have seen the same show on it as you did. It had a basic 18 mile range that could be extended out to around 35 miles with specialized rounds. I don't recall them talking about the round but I figure it was some sort of rocket assisted round.

What found that was amazing was the simultanous impact thing. I forgot the technical term for it but one gun could fire like three to five shots and an onboard computer would calculate the tragectory so that all the rounds impacted the target at roughly the exact same time.

The company that makes them received the order for 185 in 1996. The first deliveries of the unit arrived in July 1998. Total German Army requirements were 450 units but I am not sure if they have all those or not. The Greek Army received some in 2003 and 4. The Italians ordred 70 and have been receiving them since 2005 with 08 being the scheduled completion time. he Dutch want 57 and started receiving them in 2005 with 09 the completion time.

Sorry, getting carried away again.



Got that sucker on my site -- but I saw the same show you guys did, and I think I need to add a few things and change some others...
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pmulcahy






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Spielmeister

Thanks for starting this thread, :-)

I was also thinking of putting in the Land Warrior system in my 2015 game but I'm not too clear on the details and its availability by then.

Maybe the XM8 and XM25 in limited quantities too. Although admittedly, I want to appeal to my players' greed and make them stumble into a few of these and have them spending the rest of their time scrounging for spares and ammo.


Spielmeister





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davidns84

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spielmeister
Thanks for starting this thread, :-)
I was also thinking of putting in the Land Warrior system in my 2015 game but I'm not too clear on the details and its availability by then.




The first versions of the comm/computer combo system with the helmet mounted display are seeing their first field tests in Iraq as I write this.


Quote:
Maybe the XM8 and XM25 in limited quantities too. Although admittedly, I want to appeal to my players' greed and make them stumble into a few of these and have them spending the rest of their time scrounging for spares and ammo.


The XM8 has been canceled, but the XM25 is still slated for manufacture. For a standard rifle, I expect something like the HK416, M468, or FN SCAR to replace the M-16 family before 2015, meaning they'll probably be common, though National Guard and second line units may still carry M-16s (though the HK416 is designed to replace only the upper receiver on the M-16, reducing its cost, so maybe it would be implemented across the board) . It should be noted that any replacement rifle will likely use the .223/5.56 caliber for reasons of standardization, which eliminates the ammo problem. And a standard requirement for any replacement is going to be significantly improved reliability over the M-16, diminishing the need for parts and cleaning as well. I would say it would be better to make up a weapon system that was rushed through development (like the bunker busters for Desert Storm or thermobaric warheads for Afghanistan) and saw limited deployment at the start of the war. Make it fancy, fragile, and its ammo expensive to manufacture.


davidns84





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Spielmeister

David, thank you so much for the input. I'll definitely put all this to good use. Much appreciated.


Spielmeister





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davidns84

No problem. I would recommend that you check the computer/console games Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and its sequel (most often shortened to GRAW and GRAW 2) for a general conception of what the military is after with their Land Warrior program. The games themselves are, well, games, but they strive for an approximation of realism.


davidns84





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Spielmeister

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidns84
No problem. I would recommend that you check the computer/console games Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and its sequel (most often shortened to GRAW and GRAW 2) for a general conception of what the military is after with their Land Warrior program. The games themselves are, well, games, but they strive for an approximation of realism.



Ok will do! I have a friend who is really into first person shooter games and I'll bug him for this. He tends to divide his time between his fps games and airsoft.


Spielmeister





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Targan ,534

I have Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter (one or two, I can't remember which) and it is very impressive.

I have always assumed accelerated military tech development in the Twilight world because the Cold War never really ended, and therefiore the big military spending cuts didn't happen either. I assume military tech in T2K is about five years advanced on the real world.
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Targan





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ChalkLine

This is also one of my pet themes.

I have everything in use in 1985 left in storage.

I have everything in use in 1995 (1990-1995 for Russians) as standard kit.

I have everything built since then designed and created in the last year of the war, so it's R/R.

That way I do not have to chop and change, I just allow it but make it rare. I can have my mix of 1955 to 2005 equipment that I like.

Since then I've updated my game to 2010, so it's academic for me