LAV-75; Stingray; M8 AGS

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

oh and btw pmulcahy11b why no SA-11 on your website?

Paul acknowledged your first mention of this. With 1000s of items something is bound to fall through the cracks. Just a note this is a perfect thing for a PM as it is really not related to this thread (and was mentioned elsewhere).

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by kato13

Paul acknowledged your first mention of this. With 1000s of items something is bound to fall through the cracks. Just a note this is a perfect thing for a PM as it is really not related to this thread (and was mentioned elsewhere).

he did? Hmmm must have missed it . my bad.

[stilleto69]

Ah, but remember when it comes to the Government "Who cares how much it's going to cost, think of all the jobs it will create."

I mean if you really want to look at it the government would just pass an Appropriation Bill, and worry about the 'cost' later. In their eyes the increased weapon production means jobs in their community "Bringing home the Pork".

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by stilleto69

Ah, but remember when it comes to the Government "Who cares how much it's going to cost, think of all the jobs it will create."

I mean if you really want to look at it the government would just pass an Appropriation Bill, and worry about the 'cost' later. In their eyes the increased weapon production means jobs in their community "Bringing home the Pork".

very good point.

[Legbreaker]

Money doesn't grow on trees. When the global economy is being pulled in all directions and virtually every government is trying to borrow money from the same international banks to fund their own war effort, those funds just aren't going to be as available as they once were.

Sure the governments might manage to bluff their way past creditors, etc for a time, but eventually the whole national economy will fall like a house of cards and politicians would be scrambling to protect themselves.

Now where's the pork?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by stilleto69

Ah, but remember when it comes to the Government "Who cares how much it's going to cost, think of all the jobs it will create."

I mean if you really want to look at it the government would just pass an Appropriation Bill, and worry about the 'cost' later. In their eyes the increased weapon production means jobs in their community "Bringing home the Pork".

I just did a few calculations of continued Reagan era spending, inflation adjustment, and the Current stimulus/Bank Bailout Packages. By my calculations if a theoretical Reagan Republican Legislature was willing to make the similarly sized fiscal decisions they are being made currently (for bank bailouts and stimulus package) the Military Budget could have been expanded an additional 29% beyond the Reagan Levels during the 1985-1996 fiscal years.

In my mind that establishes the theoretical upper limit of what could be accomplished. Just as today's excessive spending is starting to see significant political resistance (even with a single party in charge), I believe the same would have been seen then.

Not that I feel that is likely (the Republican legislature part occuring that early seems really far fetched), but I always like to start with a maximum or minimum limit to make sure I don't pass it.

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by kato13

I just did a few calculations of continued Reagan era spending, inflation adjustment, and the Current stimulus/Bank Bailout Packages. By my calculations if a theoretical Reagan Republican Legislature was willing to make the similarly sized fiscal decisions they are being made currently (for bank bailouts and stimulus package) the Military Budget could have been expanded an additional 29% beyond the Reagan Levels during the 1985-1996 fiscal years.

In my mind that establishes the theoretical upper limit of what could be accomplished. Just as today's excessive spending is starting to see significant political resistance (even with a single party in charge), I believe the same would have been seen then.

Not that I feel that is likely (the Republican legislature part occuring that early seems really far fetched), but I always like to start with a maximum or minimum limit to make sure I don't pass it.

Thanks kato that helps a lot.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

I just did a few calculations of continued Reagan era spending, inflation adjustment, and the Current stimulus/Bank Bailout Packages. By my calculations if a theoretical Reagan Republican Legislature was willing to make the similarly sized fiscal decisions they are being made currently (for bank bailouts and stimulus package) the Military Budget could have been expanded an additional 29% beyond the Reagan Levels during the 1985-1996 fiscal years.

So, it could be done. The salient question then becomes, why? Even had the Cold War continued past '89-'91, what would have motivated the administration to spend that additional 29% over the relatively high Reagan defense spending levels on tank production? (and what about Raptor, Crusader, Seawolf, etc.?) I can see an increase in defense spending once the Soviets invade China but, once again, it's going to take time to build up the infrastructure (factories, skilled workers, etc.) to start turning those extra millions of dollars into tanks, especially since, as Paul pointed out, production in the U.S. tends to be very decentralized and much coordination is required. By the time those factories started nearing peak production, the TDM would effectively kill it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by stilleto69

I mean if you really want to look at it the government would just pass an Appropriation Bill, and worry about the 'cost' later. In their eyes the increased weapon production means jobs in their community "Bringing home the Pork".

The really bad part of defense spending and Bring Home the Pork is that Congress will try to get components of weapons systems built in as many places as possible. Look at the F-22 Raptor -- components were built in 47 states. IIRC, for the M-1A2 SEP, components are built in 14 states, and testing is done in 3 others. This would become a detriment in wartime, particularly after the November Nuclear Strikes.

[pmulcahy11b]

I just thought of something -- Saudi and Egyptian Abrams production. While they are built locally, there are some things the US Government will not allow the Saudi and Egyptian workers to do. GDLS personnel in both countries install the frontal armor, the computers and software, the GPS systems, and (in the case of Saudi M-1s) the Battlefield Management System. Those components are built in the US and they are practically NOFORN (No Foreign Personnel) -- foreign personnel are only allowed to look at an abbreviated version of the tech manuals for those components.

This may lead to versions of the Abrams during the Twilight War that are sort of "M-1A2 minus" versions -- with reverse-engineered, not as efficient components and armor.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

This may lead to versions of the Abrams during the Twilight War that are sort of "M-1A2 minus" versions -- with reverse-engineered, not as efficient components and armor.

Or with other systems, similar to how some Russian vehicles have French protection systems factory installed.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I just thought of something -- Saudi and Egyptian Abrams production. While they are built locally, there are some things the US Government will not allow the Saudi and Egyptian workers to do. GDLS personnel in both countries install the frontal armor, the computers and software, the GPS systems, and (in the case of Saudi M-1s) the Battlefield Management System. Those components are built in the US and they are practically NOFORN (No Foreign Personnel) -- foreign personnel are only allowed to look at an abbreviated version of the tech manuals for those components.

This may lead to versions of the Abrams during the Twilight War that are sort of "M-1A2 minus" versions -- with reverse-engineered, not as efficient components and armor.

One of the ironies of this is many of the civilian stuff that these same industries were trying to retract the foot print of their manufacturing establishments and shedding the parts that they had been making in-house. With the ironic twist that did spin-off several things that did spread their overall foot print of their goods.

[Raellus]

A couple of nights ago, I watched a new show on the History Channel hosted by R. Lee Ermey (the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket) called Lock N' Load about the evolution of AFVs. The last AFV profiled was the Stryker-based version of the AGS.

The unmanned "turret" with the 105mm gun looked like it would fit perfectly on the M113-based LAV-75 chasis. A 105mm armed LAV-75 (the LAV-75A1) would make a good light tank alternative to the heavier, more expensive, and slower to produce M1 Abrams series for the American airborne, motorized, and leg infantry divisions going into the Twilight War/WWIII. The 105mm gun would be able to provide infantry with effective direct fire support and would be able to take on and defeat the armor of most Soviet MBTs.

It would sort of be like the long-barreled 75mm Sturmgeshutz "assault guns" of the WWII German Army. They were originally designed to provide direct fire support to infantry but later became de facto TDs and were often called upon to perform the same role as proper tanks. They were based on an existing tank chasis (the Pz.III) and were much cheaper and faster to produce than the Panther or Tiger.

The more I think about it, the more I like the 105mm LAV-75. It's not entirely canonical (v1.0) but it still makes sense on almost every level.