Machineguns fire mode.

[Marc]

Bona nit!

In the v2.2 rulebook, in the chapter where the authors explain the meaning of parameters listed in the weapon data charts, they state that when a number appears in the ROF column, all the corresponding weapons are able to fire in SA mode or in automatic mode.

I'm quite ignorant about machineguns but I suspect that the above statement doesn't work for all of them them. For Paul's site I've seen that, for example, the Browning M-2HB has a dial that allows semiautomatic fire. Is this a common characteristic? Or,most normaly, the such a selector allows only to put the weapon to a "safe" position? I have the same doubt about the automatic rifles listed in the rulebook.

Thanks in advance!

[Legbreaker]

Many automatic weapons have only two settings - safe and burst.
The M60 for example, a weapon I am intimately familar with, is one of the above. However, even though it fires at 550 rounds per minute, or 9 per second, it is possible to fire single shots after just a few minutes practice. Don't count on the shots being as accurate as a rifle though as it was designed to spread the rounds about a little (not enough that you'd notice normally, but enough that you're not going to want to snipe with it).

The Bren gun was a little different. Although classified as a machinegun despite it's rather inadequate ammunition supply (magazines on a fully automatic weapon?), one of the greatest complaints I've heard about it was not the mags, nor the weight (it's a bit of a beast for an LMG) but the accuracy - it tends to actually put rounds from a burst in the same place!

[headquarters]

many HMGs and LMGs have only safe and fire mode .Full burst or nothing .Clipping bursts is possible ,but hard if you try to do it quickly and aim at the same time.

MG-3 has this set up .

Automatic rifles have safe-single-burst setting ,some also a 3-burst setting .

Some SMG like MP-40 have only safe and burst .

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Marc

I'm quite ignorant about machineguns but I suspect that the above statement doesn't work for all of them them. For Paul's site I've seen that, for example, the Browning M-2HB has a dial that allows semiautomatic fire. Is this a common characteristic? Or,most normaly, the such a selector allows only to put the weapon to a "safe" position? I have the same doubt about the automatic rifles listed in the rulebook.

Thanks in advance!

The M-2HB is weird in having that dial for safe or semiautomatic -- most machineguns and and a lot of SAW-type weapons offer only safe or fire. (BTW, correct me if I'm wrong -- the new QCB kit for the M-2HB that the US is fielding also eliminates that selective capability?)

[Marc]

Thanks for your quick answers, guys.

BTW: Any idea to produce a generic "House Rule" to establish when the barrel of an MG would must be changed and about the consecuences not to do it?

[copeab]

There was a recent episode of Lock And Load with R. Lee Ermey where he fired off a bunch of machine guns. A a couple of relevant observations.

1) He fired off 100 continuous rounds from a water-cooled and an air-cooled MG (but US WWII models, .30-cal). The water-cooled barrel went up 10-15 degrees F; the air-cooled barrel went up over 100 F. He showed the proper way to use the air-cooled MG -- tap of a short burst (3-4 rounds), then wait a second, then repeat the cycle. The barrel still got hotter than the water-cooled, but much less than it had under continuous fire.

2) He also fired a Bren and BAR. He considered the BAR more accurate (of it's two automatic settings, one is 2/3 the Bren, so it can be controlled better) but found he still had to change magazines more often (20 rnd for the BAR).

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

He showed the proper way to use the air-cooled MG -- tap of a short burst (304 rounds), then wait a second, then repeat the cycle.

You are truly hard core Copeab. If 304 rounds is your idea of a short burst I'd love to see what you consider to be rock n roll mode!

I kid, I kid. I know you meant to type 3-4 rounds. But it made me laugh.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Marc

Thanks for your quick answers, guys.

BTW: Any idea to produce a generic "House Rule" to establish when the barrel of an MG would must be changed and about the consecuences not to do it?

These things vary with air temperature and actual rate of fire .

For the MG-3 you can shoot until it glows red or white , but jams or involuntary discharge is then a definitive possibility.We are talking a lot of rounds - maybe 500 - 1000 in a short time .

For peace time purposes we always changed barrels after 100 rounds -to train the drill and to lessen wear on the barrel.
maybe a rule could be that if fired continously for more than 6 phases ( shots in every phase ) a jam roll is made to see if teh barrel has overheated and jams ..?)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Marc

Thanks for your quick answers, guys.

BTW: Any idea to produce a generic "House Rule" to establish when the barrel of an MG would must be changed and about the consecuences not to do it?

The consequences are that you will "shoot out" your barrel -- the barrel is weakened so that it is warped and the rifling screwed up and the weapon can no longer produce accurate fire. The bore will also foul quicker, and the breech can also be damaged leading to an increasing amount of stoppages. If the barrel is warped enough, it can literally burst, possibly injuring and even killing the gunner. If it gets hot enough, you may not have to even hold the trigger down anymore -- it's hot enough that the gun fires until it the belt is gone, then jams tight, and even 3rd-echelon maintenance will throw it away as unsalvageable.

As an aside, I was taught in Basic that when firing an FPL (Final Protective Line -- a continuous stream of fire across the front of your position to prevent being overrun), you will shoot out your barrel, because you don't stop firing until the enemy withdraws, you are ordered to stop or withdraw, or your weapon is mechanically unable to fire any more. In such a circumstance, having to take the time to change a barrel is hazardous to your health.

[Marc]

Understood, thanks. How much time (more or less) to change the barrel?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Marc

Understood, thanks. How much time (more or less) to change the barrel?

For your average light or medium machinegun, 5 seconds or less. (The testing standard for the M-60 when I was in was 8 seconds -- most guys I know could do it a lot faster - my personal best was just under 4 seconds.) The M-2HB and other really old designs is another matter - you have to set the headspace and timing when you change a barrel or you risk a stoppage, and that takes 20-30 seconds at a minimum.

If the barrel is really hot, changing the barrel on some guns, (like the M-60) takes longer, because the weapon's carrying handle is not on the barrel, but on the receiver or handguard. In a hard fight, it may not matter, but changing the barrel on such a gun could give you serious burns on your hands -- figure 5 seconds more to put on heavy-duty gloves or the silly asbestos gloves that come with the gun's kit. If the handle is on the barrel, no difference.

Good M-60 gunners also know a trick -- you shove the bipod into the dirt, release the barrel, then give it very quick twist and pull the gun sharply back. Usually, the barrel will fall out, and you can knock it aside with the gun and put the new barrel in. That won't work with a very hot gun, and sometimes doesn't work at all. But figure 2 more seconds. It works better if you have an assistant gunner to hold the barrel down -- no additional time.

[Legbreaker]

Having an assistant gunner can either be a blessing, or a curse you wouldn't wish on your worse enemy.

During my time with the M60, I invariably ended up with the later - somebody of little more use than an ammo carrier. Another gunner in my plattoon got extremely lucky and was paired up with a natural No2. Even with only the basic training they worked as a finely tuned machine from the very first moment, instinctively reacting to, even before the other.

With a good No 2, drills barely take more than a few heartbeats. With a crappy one often times the gunner has to scream for them to get close enough so they can grab the spare barrel/ammo/etc and then get on with the job themselves....

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Having an assistant gunner can either be a blessing, or a curse you wouldn't wish on your worse enemy.

That's pretty much true of any assistant, military or otherwise...

What's worse is when you have an assistant that's extremely competent, but is as a person is so odious that you'd like to punch him in the face every time you see him. They you really have a dilemma...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I recall with the machinegun training we got that it was basically, bursts of 3-5 rounds and change the barrel after every 200 rounds

[Legbreaker]

It depends a lot on the weapon and rate of fire. A rapid rate of say 200+ per minute will require a change about every minute, while a slower rate of say 100 might only need a change every 3-4 minutes even though more rounds have been fired through it.

Note also that it's EXTREMELY rare for a weapon to have more than one spare barrel, so chances are in a heavy battle, the "spare" is still scorching hot when it's put back on the weapon for another turn.

[leonpoi]

I've been using the following rules for a while, maybe they can be of some use:

barrel change - same as changing a belt, 2 actions but the gunner and an assistant can work at the same time to make it one 5s action. This doesn't take into account the ready for the barrel (which the assistant would have done)

spare barrels - for simplicity a spare barrel weighs about 1/3 of the gun weight.

Overheating - an overheated barrel takes 15 minutes before being considered "cool"

The following barrel change rates can be used as a guide:

Automatic rifle / assault rifle change after approx. 200 rnds:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
5	        50	5 min
10	        100	2 min
25	        300	Ruin gun/High Jam chance

Medium MG:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
10	        100	10 min
20	        200	2 min
50	        600	Ruin gun/High Jam chance

Heavy/Autocannon MG:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
15	        200	30 min
25	        300/400 several minutes

[copeab]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

Overheating - an overheated barrel takes 15 minutes before being considered "cool"

Can you speed this up by dropping the barrel in water or spraying it with a fire extinguisher, or would this ruin the barrel?

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by copeab

Can you speed this up by dropping the barrel in water or spraying it with a fire extinguisher, or would this ruin the barrel?

I don't know if it would ruin it but I've seen it done (dropping it in water). it's still hot so it evaporates off (shooting it with water droplets inside the barrel may damage it?). With water you could cool it in 5-10 seconds I'd think. I guess that this is also the premise behind water-cooled mgs. There are also stories about urinating on the barrel to cool it, putting snow on it, and I guess a fire extinguisher would work.

[Legbreaker]

YES!!!!

It's almost certain to ruin the temper of the metal (I'm no metalsmith, but that much I'm certain of).

You're also likely to get water entering into places it just shouldn't be, such as the gas system on the M60.

As a rule of thumb, moisture of any type is a firearms worst enemy. Even the high humity typically found in tropical regions is enough to cause issues.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

Can you speed this up by dropping the barrel in water or spraying it with a fire extinguisher, or would this ruin the barrel?

I wouldn't drop it in water, but I've never tried or known anyone that's tried a fire extinguisher. In Basic, we were taught that a way you can cool a barrel enough to use it a little while longer is to have 3 or 4 guys piss on it -- so warm water might do the trick.

[Marc]

Just a curious video about the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5V54VGfvTU

[Marc]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

I've been using the following rules for a while, maybe they can be of some use:

barrel change - same as changing a belt, 2 actions but the gunner and an assistant can work at the same time to make it one 5s action. This doesn't take into account the ready for the barrel (which the assistant would have done)

spare barrels - for simplicity a spare barrel weighs about 1/3 of the gun weight.

Overheating - an overheated barrel takes 15 minutes before being considered "cool"

The following barrel change rates can be used as a guide:

Automatic rifle / assault rifle change after approx. 200 rnds:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
5	        50	5 min
10	        100	2 min
25	        300	Ruin gun/High Jam chance

Medium MG:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
10	        100	10 min
20	        200	2 min
50	        600	Ruin gun/High Jam chance

Heavy/Autocannon MG:
ROF/turn	RPM	Barrel Change
15	        200	30 min
25	        300/400 several minutes

Ei Leonpoi! Nice table. It seems a very logic House-Rule. And an easy-to-use one. I'll buy it .

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The M60 for example, a weapon I am intimately familar with, is one of the above. However, even though it fires at 550 rounds per minute, or 9 per second, it is possible to fire single shots after just a few minutes practice. Don't count on the shots being as accurate as a rifle though as it was designed to spread the rounds about a little (not enough that you'd notice normally, but enough that you're not going to want to snipe with it).

I actually have used it as a sniper rifle -- albeit with MILES gear and against hapless ROTC cadets...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Marc

Just a curious video about the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5V54VGfvTU

After watching that video I watched several more which were similar. Fascinating.

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Targan

After watching that video I watched several more which were similar. Fascinating.

There is a video on you-tube that shows some nut-job shooting a mg, taking off the barrel, cooling it in water, and repeating over and over again - I just can't find it.

[Legbreaker]

While it's definately going to cool the barrel down, immersing it in water is certainly causing damage as I mentioned before.
Chances are it'll still be useable for that battle, but don't count on it after that. It may even screw it up so badly that it cracks when fired (and that's definately something in the BAD THINGS category).

As for sniping, why bother wasting the ammo on poor, hapless cadets, even if they are only blanks. I found waving a handaxe, or, better yet, charging with a SMLE bayonet on the end of my F88 did the trick quite nicely. (Yes, a hundred year old bayonet will fit after judicious application of no more than an allen key)

There's something to be said for cold steel.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As for sniping, why bother wasting the ammo on poor, hapless cadets, even if they are only blanks. I found waving a handaxe, or, better yet, charging with a SMLE bayonet on the end of my F88 did the trick quite nicely. (Yes, a hundred year old bayonet will fit after judicious application of no more than an allen key)

There's something to be said for cold steel.

Well, it was fun to watch the cadets scatter, freeze, or drop to the ground, heedless of finding any cover or listening to the cadets that were in charge.

Charging them with an axe sounds like it might have been fun -- but I don't think LTC Shimmick would have let us do it...

LTC Shimmick didn't let us throw CS grenades at them either, but that would have been REALLY fun!

[leonpoi]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

While it's definately going to cool the barrel down, immersing it in water is certainly causing damage as I mentioned before.
Chances are it'll still be useable for that battle, but don't count on it after that. It may even screw it up so badly that it cracks when fired (and that's definately something in the BAD THINGS category).

As for sniping, why bother wasting the ammo on poor, hapless cadets, even if they are only blanks. I found waving a handaxe, or, better yet, charging with a SMLE bayonet on the end of my F88 did the trick quite nicely. (Yes, a hundred year old bayonet will fit after judicious application of no more than an allen key)

There's something to be said for cold steel.

are there really bayonets in a MILES training?

I've got a friend whose army career so far goes:
(Australia) Infantry -> sniper -> (Iraq) -> (Afghanistan) -> Commandos -> (Afghanistan)
when he was still training for the sniper course his group was the opposing force for a bunch of cadets. In one fight he snuck through long grass to pretty close (maybe 50m), popped up and shot, ducked down and moved, popped up and shot - repeat. He took out 16 guys before withdrawing back out of view. He said he could hardly contain himself from laughing because they just had no idea where he was.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

are there really bayonets in a MILES training?

I think Leggie likes to keep it real.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by leonpoi

are there really bayonets in a MILES training?

I've got a friend whose army career so far goes:
(Australia) Infantry -> sniper -> (Iraq) -> (Afghanistan) -> Commandos -> (Afghanistan)
when he was still training for the sniper course his group was the opposing force for a bunch of cadets. In one fight he snuck through long grass to pretty close (maybe 50m), popped up and shot, ducked down and moved, popped up and shot - repeat. He took out 16 guys before withdrawing back out of view. He said he could hardly contain himself from laughing because they just had no idea where he was.

I remember one such exercise. The cadets were to demonstrate their proficiency at crossing a minefield under fire. We had one M-60 atop the hill at the other end of the minefield. The cadets never even got to the minefield...