T2K Fortification

[Mohoender]

I have no time now today but I start this just as a beginning. I'll put more posts ASAP.

I disagreed with prisons as efficient defensive positions but I found the point very interesting. What about other fortifications? France has plenty and I'll try to come up with exemples soon. What about other countries? Even U.S. has some (may be more that what I think) as I visited an old fort in Maine back in 2003.

Marc, as I know, many cities and towns of Spain retain some kind of fortification. Can you give some exemples of this?

Many cities and towns in Portugal will have some strong defense. In fact, the portuguese army still run all the coastal forts that you have in the country, often renting them to private business.

I think that most will be used again and they might make formidable strongholds. Religious buildings can also be an option: just remember Monte Cassino in Italy.

I would love to know more about this, if any of you has some kind of informations, please feel free.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I have no time now today but I start this just as a beginning. I'll put more posts ASAP.

I disagreed with prisons as efficient defensive positions but I found the point very interesting. What about other fortifications? France has plenty and I'll try to come up with exemples soon. What about other countries? Even U.S. has some (may be more that what I think) as I visited an old fort in Maine back in 2003.

Marc, as I know, many cities and towns of Spain retain some kind of fortification. Can you give some exemples of this?

Many cities and towns in Portugal will have some strong defense. In fact, the portuguese army still run all the coastal forts that you have in the country, often renting them to private business.

I think that most will be used again and they might make formidable strongholds. Religious buildings can also be an option: just remember Monte Cassino in Italy.

I would love to know more about this, if any of you has some kind of informations, please feel free.

My recent post sabout fortress like structures being able to repel attackers etc were largely inspired by the city of Dubrovnik who held out siege and attacks by the Jugoslav army in the early 1990s .

Now- this army was vastly superior in firepower,manpower,etc - but it seems attacking a built up area is a risky business.

It takes a concentrated effort and the willingness to take casualties to do it -meaning most t2k factions/commanders would vote a no to go for it -

imho of course

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

My recent post sabout fortress like structures being able to repel attackers etc were largely inspired by the city of Dubrovnik who held out siege and attacks by the Jugoslav army in the early 1990s .

Now- this army was vastly superior in firepower,manpower,etc - but it seems attacking a built up area is a risky business.

It takes a concentrated effort and the willingness to take casualties to do it -meaning most t2k factions/commanders would vote a no to go for it -

imho of course

Agree entirely. I would love to find some info on what cities still have some. I didn't know about Dubrovnik. That's one .

[copeab]

Worth remembering that CAS and massed artillery are mostly gone in 2000, so "obsolete" fortifications are once again effective.

[Marc]

Bona nit!!

Dubrovnik! I remember Dubrovnik as really beatiuful city, the true jewel of the dalmatian coast. I would say you that, if possible, don’t lose any future chance to visit de Croatian coast.

I was in Dubrovnik in the summer of 99, during my only two free days in my tour of duty with the Spanish Parachute Brigade (BRIPAC) in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The first day, (finally wearing civilian clothes after so much time and without any equipment!!) I went all over the wall under the summer sun, with a group of friends of “Infanteria de Marina”. A high, strong and impressive wall, conceived for the black powder age. A good example of poliorcetic in a coastal city.

As Mohoender says, walled cities were common in all the Iberian Peninsula. But the presence of a well preserved wall in the present day depends, in great part, of the development of the city. Those cities which have suffered an stagnation period preserve their walls nearly intact. Others cities, like Barcelona, have urbanized, centuries ago, spaces beyond the walls (extra-muros) and only minor fragments exists in the original city centers. From the point of view of a modern observer, it’s a shame, but, after all, it was the progress. In the Gothic cathedral square of Barcelona, an impressive medieval wall fragment can still be observed, with roman foundations and modern era modifications. A wall constructed by Romans that has known the armies of Muslims, Franks, Spanish, Catalans, Frenches, Austrians, and others...

I think that the city of Avila is, perhaps, the most important walled city in Spain. Morella is an impressive walled city, at the top of a mountain; Peñiscola, in the Mediterraean coast, were was filmed “The Cid”, with Charlton Heston ... And a lot of others. The small walled medieval village in Peratallada deserves a visit, too. Of course, the Spanish poliorcetics is strongly focused to the fight against the muslims. But internal conflicts and international wars have been important factors. Europe is Europe...

And out of Spain, for my experience, I must recommend you Dubrovnik, Carcassone and Beaune.

Here you found a link of an association of walled cities:

http://www.walledtowns.com/wtfc/map.html

[Adm.Lee]

A frined of mine once pointed out that enclosed shopping malls (the big ones) might make great forts. Some have their own power supplies, plenty of storage, and the fields of fire (parking lots) are already cleared!

[jester]

There are many forts in the US.

Remember up until after WWII we had active coastal artillery batteries that are fairly sizable.

In my Arctic Raiders Campaign, I had the players training at one such place that had been turned into a recreation area and park. But when the war broke out, it was militarized, and they moved troops into the underground galleries.

We also have a good number of Civil War Era Forts, some earlier forts mostly on the eastcoast.

An example of two on the west coast are, The Presidio and Alcatraz both build as early Spanish Forts.

Here are some links to some of the forts we hace localy:

http://www.cdsg.org/HDCRdata/stevensx.htm

http://www.ftmac.org/index.htm

The above was my playground after dark, especialy the portions that where no longer used and closed

http://www.laokay.com/TheGunBatteriesofSanPedro.htm

And then they also had Nike Zues Missile Silos:

These are all over the Los Angeles area as well as the country.

http://www.nps.gov/goga/nike-missile-site.htm

Further, after BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure of the 90s and early 2000s, there are a good number of large and small bases and facilities that are dormant, and would be still standing in the 2013 Twilight War.



And then, you also have the ability to turn so many places into forts. A ski lodge that's primary access is via a cable car or a narrow trail up a steep slope. I know of three places within an hour of me where this would be the problem.


Isolated communities on penninsulas and islands would be an easy place to defend.

LARGE Buildings would be good, like a Hospital, or even large building groups that one finds in larger cities, where several tall buildings surround a general courtyard.

those are just some ideas off the top of my head.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Marc

Bona nit!!

Dubrovnik! I remember Dubrovnik as really beatiuful city, the true jewel of the dalmatian coast. I would say you that, if possible, don’t lose any future chance to visit de Croatian coast.

I was in Dubrovnik in the summer of 99, during my only two free days in my tour of duty with the Spanish Parachute Brigade (BRIPAC) in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The first day, (finally wearing civilian clothes after so much time and without any equipment!!) I went all over the wall under the summer sun, with a group of friends of “Infanteria de Marina”. A high, strong and impressive wall, conceived for the black powder age. A good example of poliorcetic in a coastal city.

As Mohoender says, walled cities were common in all the Iberian Peninsula. But the presence of a well preserved wall in the present day depends, in great part, of the development of the city. Those cities which have suffered an stagnation period preserve their walls nearly intact. Others cities, like Barcelona, have urbanized, centuries ago, spaces beyond the walls (extra-muros) and only minor fragments exists in the original city centers. From the point of view of a modern observer, it’s a shame, but, after all, it was the progress. In the Gothic cathedral square of Barcelona, an impressive medieval wall fragment can still be observed, with roman foundations and modern era modifications. A wall constructed by Romans that has known the armies of Muslims, Franks, Spanish, Catalans, Frenches, Austrians, and others...

I think that the city of Avila is, perhaps, the most important walled city in Spain. Morella is an impressive walled city, at the top of a mountain; Peñiscola, in the Mediterraean coast, were was filmed “The Cid”, with Charlton Heston ... And a lot of others. The small walled medieval village in Peratallada deserves a visit, too. Of course, the Spanish poliorcetics is strongly focused to the fight against the muslims. But internal conflicts and international wars have been important factors. Europe is Europe...

And out of Spain, for my experience, I must recommend you Dubrovnik, Carcassone and Beaune.

Here you found a link of an association of walled cities:

http://www.walledtowns.com/wtfc/map.html

The 60 hr leave is how I got see Dubrovnik too! ( SFOR I&II) .We drove down from Modrica through the mountains ( dont see how they could invade rough there ) and there it was - the most beautiful city I have seen so far . My favourite spot is rthe bar called "cold drinks" thats nestled on the cliffs outside the wall on the sea side -where th elocal bravos dive of th e30 foot cliff and sneer at us tourists that dont dare ..(hehe croats..such children).

Any ways - I agree with you -beautiful gem of the mediterranean .
and that walled cities are once again more powerful in the t2k world .

And that Europe is Europe

Norway have little in the way of fortifications,it was poor up until 50 years ago , and in the old days most were built from wood which is plentiful here.

Sad - I love fortificatons .

there are a few though -this one is my favourite :

http://www.nasjonalefestningsverk.no.../1085775838.05

but there are several other cool ones there too. ( I see they have omitted the fort in my old town..goverment bastards always trying to hold the South Province down...

And after all - what is a campaign without a good castle ,ey ?

[Targan]

There are fortified gun emplacements dating back to early last century on Rottnest Island off Perth, the city where I live. They were built as coastal defences for sinking enemy ships and there are extensive tunnels linking the emplacements to each other and to magazines, cut right into the limestone of the island. Unfortunately Rottnest has no fresh water and annual rainfall around Perth is pretty unreliable so any military presence out there would need resupply from the mainland.

Rottnest was named by Dutch explorers (it means Rats Nest) after the quokkas that live there. Quokkas look like itty bitty fat kangaroos about a foot high with bald tails and are incredibly cute and friendly.

[Mohoender]

Now I have some times and here are some exemples for France. You'll find several coastal forts such as the one in Antibes: the "Fort Carré". Some will be found inland also and several fort from WWI surrender Paris.

Carcassone is a good exemple but several other cities (smaller cities for the most part) will have citadels or fortified harbor such as St Malo.

I also put a view of Carcassone and one from two castles

[ChalkLine]

Vauban era to Brialmont era fortifications make excellent T2k fortresses.

The cannon of the era had a range similar to modern assault rifles, and the design of the fortresses make the attacker subject at every turn to flanking fire from a weapon with this range. A few mortars and GPMGs for direct fire and fortifications such as this are near impregnable.

[chico20854]

For my fellow SFOR/IFOR peacekeepers in Bosnia, if you were in the NORDPOL AO you may remember the Vranduk fortress on the way from Doboj to Zenica (2 of the larger shitholes in that accursed land):

http://medam-photogarden.blogspot.co...-fortress.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reHpjSGZQPg
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/pb/57b99/

[Marc]

Originally Posted by chico20854

For my fellow SFOR/IFOR peacekeepers in Bosnia, if you were in the NORDPOL AO you may remember the Vranduk fortress on the way from Doboj to Zenica (2 of the larger shitholes in that accursed land):

http://medam-photogarden.blogspot.co...-fortress.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reHpjSGZQPg
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/pb/57b99/

I was based around Trebinje area, in the SE, so I've never been near those fortifications. I remember to have seen a pair of little fortified structures nearby, possibly ottoman. Sadly it was not the more appropriate moment for a visit and I must recognize that my historical curiosity was still in start-up phase.

Anyway, It has been a nice surprise to meet here more members of the IFOR/SFOR forces. Best regards, people.

[jester]

What about a fort, or a hidden gun emplacement akin to a mountain top tunnel fortress similiar to the emplacements from "Guns of Navarone" And now I am thinking of a campaign based along those lines, akin to Eagles Dare and Guns of Navarone, a isolated mountain top fortress, with somekind of long range weapons, maybe heacy 203mm mortars or howitzers maybe a few chemical rounds. A fortress that is built into a flat topped mountain with several mine entrances that are now turned into gun emplacements. The inside was mined out maybe there is still some mineral of whatever you choose to have for the evil band who have taken residence and turned the once working/abandoned mine into a mountain fortress.

There is only 1 long narrow winding road up to the top of the mountain and it passes the several entrances that are fortified.

The large guns control the region for 20 miles in any direction, which includes farmland, and a major river and transportation route. And the Colonel who commands the mountain fortress now exacts tribute from the city that is on the river, the community at the base of the mountain where many of the miners and support personel lived and the farmlands around.

The PCs mission is to infiltrate the mountain and destroy the hold the fort and evil colonel have over the entire region.

<Sorry for stealling the thread, the idea came with me and I had to put it to papper before it was lost>

Now I must work on this idea and expand the campaign some more.

[Targan]

Nice adventure idea Jester. Unfortunately in my campaign or, say, Headquarters' the most likely end result would be that the fortress continues being used to dominate the surrounding communities, only the people in charge would change. It must be nice for those of you GMs whose players like playing the good guys.

[Raellus]

Although not as large or impressive as the fortifications that ya'll have already listed, there are still a few left-over late WWII-era German fortifications in Poland.

It'd be kind of cool for a party of PCs to come across a Panther tank turret emplaced in a reinforced concrete revetment.

[jester]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Although not as large or impressive as the fortifications that ya'll have already listed, there are still a few left-over late WWII-era German fortifications in Poland.

It'd be kind of cool for a party of PCs to come across a Panther tank turret emplaced in a reinforced concrete revetment.

There are several articles of German and Russian tanks being pulled out of ponds and swamps and bogs, and then being restored. Which is cool since the oxygen content is so low in many of these places and it is so cold they do not deteriorate as well as in other waters. A group in N. Cali found one that was pulled from a river or pond in Latvia I beleive, it was a Panther, they returned it to N. Cal and they rebuilt the thing bringing it to working order.

Then the group who rebuilt the vehicle did research as to why the vehicle was abandoned, I knew the answer since it was SOP, what is funny is they guessed but had no answer, until one or two went to the village near where the vehicle was salvaged and they told him. So, when in doubt ask the locals!

The vehicle got bogged down crossing the river so the Germans put a demolition charge in the vehicle, which was standard to ensure the Russians who were advancing couldn't use it.

Hmmm, that could be incorporated easy enough into a campaign, a small but skilled group amases a good amount of armored vehicles that had been abandoned in rivers, swamps and lakes, repairing them.

Or, there is a mystery around and no one knows what or why, but it is also hush hush, but the villagers all know, just no one bothers to ask them. Kinda like the 2nd Ed rules, with the part about, "Ah you mean Jones, the spy."

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Targan

Nice adventure idea Jester. Unfortunately in my campaign or, say, Headquarters' the most likely end result would be that the fortress continues being used to dominate the surrounding communities, only the people in charge would change. It must be nice for those of you GMs whose players like playing the good guys.

Yep. But maybe a few chem rounds first to show the locals that the new boss is business like..

There were four main "systems" of forts throughout US history.

3 systems, and a 4th special type system that dealt more with ordnance being employed from hardened positions, i.e. not the shape of a typical truncated hexagonal fort with traditional walls, bastions, etc, but instead reinforced singular or grouped gun positions. Fort De Soto is a good example.

1st System was what we see in the frontier area of like say Florida, etc. Dug outs with wood from trees reinforcing the positions.

2nd System was what places like the 1st system showed, but had incorporated stone/concrete, and had employed cannons and similar ordnance at strategic points of the forts.

3rd System were the culmination of the fort systems of America, these being most all part of an intricate coastal defense system that lasted until humanity had begun to mass produce intercontinental aircraft, thus making these forts obsolete. A good group of Florida forts to study are Castillo De San Marcos, Fort Clinch, Fort Barrancas, Fort Morgan, and for a late 3rd System/Early 4th System example, Fort De Soto in my home of Pinellas County.

The 4th System had come about during a rapidly developing arms era of the early 20th Century just as aircraft had come into play. It had new ideas put into play, such as the use of extremely heavy "disappearing" guns in lieu of casemate, or wall top mounted howitzers or coastal guns. Anti Aircraft Artillery had become a factor as air power began to trump the paramount use large fleets of dreadnought ships, and other coast threatening vessels.

By the end of WWII, we can see that all the used forts had become obsolescent, and slowly became mere reminders of a way war was once waged.

[ChalkLine]

I recommend 'The History of Fortification' Ian V Hogg*

A brilliant read that provides a fantastic overview of fortification with an emphasis on the period of Vauban to WW1.

(*who died a few years ago! What a bummer, I always wanted to meet the man)

[pmulcahy11b]

It's a bit of an exotic location for T2K...but basically all over Oahu in Hawaii, you'll find abandoned blockhouses and pillboxes built before and during World War 2. Many are still in good shape, though overgrown with vegetation. Another interesting location would be Ulupau Crater on Kaneohe MCAS; it's the rifle range for the island, and is to an extent honeycombed with rooms and corridors (and you find even find some ammo!). On the other side of the island at Mokapu Point, there is an abandoned Nike site; I never had the chance to go see for myself, but it's supposed to have a decent array of blockhouses, old buildings, and underground rooms and corridors.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

I recommend 'The History of Fortification' Ian V Hogg*

A brilliant read that provides a fantastic overview of fortification with an emphasis on the period of Vauban to WW1.

(*who died a few years ago! What a bummer, I always wanted to meet the man)

Damn, no wonder I haven't seen any new books from him at Barnes & Noble lately!

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's a bit of an exotic location for T2K...but basically all over Oahu in Hawaii, you'll find abandoned blockhouses and pillboxes built before and during World War 2. Many are still in good shape, though overgrown with vegetation. Another interesting location would be Ulupau Crater on Kaneohe MCAS; it's the rifle range for the island, and is to an extent honeycombed with rooms and corridors (and you find even find some ammo!). On the other side of the island at Mokapu Point, there is an abandoned Nike site; I never had the chance to go see for myself, but it's supposed to have a decent array of blockhouses, old buildings, and underground rooms and corridors.

They are there.

One of my links was to a nike site, they were pretty universal.

You have 1 command site in the area and a dozen or so satelight sites. Like the one at Whites Point was the comand center for all of the ones from Ventura, Los Angeles and Orange Counties which had about a dozen.

Each site had an underground silo, elevator venhilators and then a comand center. Some of the facilities had two elevators, each elevator was about the size of a semi trailer if i recall right.

Most topside facilities had a place for the personel to stay, a mess facility, a admin center, a guard post or two, some had firestations and missile asssembly areas and kennels as well. The one we used had three primary buildings.

[ChalkLine]

Fort Scratchley in Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia is a victorian era coastal battery with some nice underground galleries. It's not too big to defend, PCs could manage it.

Go to the link above, there is ground plans of the fort. If you don't want to use the fort as a coastal battery, just site it on a bluff looking towards the probable direction of attack. It's international design makes it perfect for anywhere in the world and it is small enough to to be overlooked on many maps.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Fort Scratchley in Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia is a victorian era coastal battery with some nice underground galleries. It's not too big to defend, PCs could manage it.

Go to the link above, there is ground plans of the fort. If you don't want to use the fort as a coastal battery, just site it on a bluff looking towards the probable direction of attack. It's international design makes it perfect for anywhere in the world and it is small enough to to be overlooked on many maps.

I'd just like to add that this battery makes an ideal base for riverine or sea-going PCs.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's a bit of an exotic location for T2K...but basically all over Oahu in Hawaii, you'll find abandoned blockhouses and pillboxes built before and during World War 2. Many are still in good shape, though overgrown with vegetation. Another interesting location would be Ulupau Crater on Kaneohe MCAS; it's the rifle range for the island, and is to an extent honeycombed with rooms and corridors (and you find even find some ammo!). On the other side of the island at Mokapu Point, there is an abandoned Nike site; I never had the chance to go see for myself, but it's supposed to have a decent array of blockhouses, old buildings, and underground rooms and corridors.

Post-TDM, we (in the DC group) have proposed moving PACOM HQ to K-Bay. There is a large airfield, housing, ammo dumps, a pier, radar station, intercept/signal station and a mountain honeycombed with fortifications. The mountain was outfitted during 1942-4 as a coastal artillery position, equipped with the heavy guns salvaged off the USS Arizona from the bottom of Pearl Harbor. The positions are still there (the guns are not) and probably have extensive tunnels to support them. The prevailing winds are from the north, assuring that any fallout from the strikes on Honolulu don't effect the post. And the only landside access to the post is over a pair of causeways from the main part of the island. Ideal, IMHO...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Post-TDM, we (in the DC group) have proposed moving PACOM HQ to K-Bay. There is a large airfield, housing, ammo dumps, a pier, radar station, intercept/signal station and a mountain honeycombed with fortifications. The mountain was outfitted during 1942-4 as a coastal artillery position, equipped with the heavy guns salvaged off the USS Arizona from the bottom of Pearl Harbor. The positions are still there (the guns are not) and probably have extensive tunnels to support them. The prevailing winds are from the north, assuring that any fallout from the strikes on Honolulu don't effect the post. And the only landside access to the post is over a pair of causeways from the main part of the island. Ideal, IMHO...

Actually, Kaneohe has a Back Gate (also called the Pali Gate, since it faces the Pali Outlook). This does not connect via causeway, though you do go through a winding mountain highway to get to it.

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Actually, Kaneohe has a Back Gate (also called the Pali Gate, since it faces the Pali Outlook). This does not connect via causeway, though you do go through a winding mountain highway to get to it.

Actualy Paul there is a causeway.

Once you enter the base after comming through the neighborhood in Kailua, ocean and beach on one side, Nuapia Ponds on the other. Just like the maingate.

And the base has other things,

1.) It has the crater near the rifle range filled with bunkers and what not, but also KT as well which sits in the center of the Island.

And then of course they have a few islands small ones but islands, one in the center of Kaneohie and another on the otherside we called "Rabbit Island"

And the Nuapia pond used to be the Hawaiian Royal Families private fishing pond, although now it is more marsh that stinks to high heaven.

As for the Dock, they used to have LSTs pull up and people sailed away on deplopyment that way. It isn't that big a dock as it has limited capacity but it could do the job for one or two ships.

The airfeild, well one issue is it faces the ocean on either end so that could pose a problem if you have any issues with aircraft. It can handle C-131s mind you, and I oftten wondered if one central street could do the job as it bisected the base and was much longer.

Another protector from radiation is the Pali mountain range bisects the island so there is the tallest point of mountains on the island seperating the base from Honolulu and Pearl which again is seperated by hills.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

Actualy Paul there is a causeway.

Oops, left out a word. It should have read, "Actually, Kaneohe also has a Back Gate..."

Amazing how leaving out one word can screw up what one is trying to say.

[Raellus]

Has anyone seen the Israeli film, Beufort [sic]? I haven't seen it yet but it's about an Israeli unit occupying a Crusader castle in Lebanon during the '90s. It's on my Netflix list.

Seems like it could provide some interesting flavor or scenario ideas for fortifications in T2K.