Australia/New Zealand in the Twilight War

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

Well, probably not wave an AK-47 over your head and scream "WOLVERINES!!!"

No, I'd wave a Steyr over my head and scream "WOMBATS!!!" Heh heh.

[jester]

LOL!!!! And the wombat is such a fierce creature!

It kinda reminds me of the spoof Delta Farce where they are moving out to get on the plane, the redneck asks the young tall strong looking soldier,

"Who ya with?"

The young strong soldier replies with pride,

"101st Sceamin EAGLES! What about you?"

The Redneck played by the cvharacter Larry the Cableguy replies,

"64th Georgia, the sleeping marmots."

The line was worth a chuckle!

And now to hijack since Wombats came up,

What about personal pets and mascots in the T2K world?

Somehow I can just picture some Aussies liberating a Kangaroo from a Zoo as they roam the battlefields of Europe.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

LOL!!!! And the wombat is such a fierce creature!

It kinda reminds me of the spoof Delta Farce where they are moving out to get on the plane, the redneck asks the young tall strong looking soldier,

"Who ya with?"

The young strong soldier replies with pride,

"101st Sceamin EAGLES! What about you?"

The Redneck played by the cvharacter Larry the Cableguy replies,

"64th Georgia, the sleeping marmots."

The line was worth a chuckle!

And now to hijack since Wombats came up,

What about personal pets and mascots in the T2K world?

Somehow I can just picture some Aussies liberating a Kangaroo from a Zoo as they roam the battlefields of Europe.

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..

Australia could do well if it wasnt hit badly by the exchange of misiles.It has a unique location ,a good deal of resources -including agricultural - and maybe together with New Zeeland could carry on to some extent as an organized country -although hardships and stern internal security measures probably would be needed.

As for Indonesia invading -it somehow seems that if the Imperial Japanese Forces couldnt do it -the Indonesians wouldnt get any closer than locking themselves in a stalemate in PNG -just like in the 1940s.

If anything ,I would guess that Indonesia would be invaded by Australia/New Zeeland/Pacific allies to secure oilfields and stabilize regions of strategic interests.Indonesia would probably submerge in a multitude of civil wars over religious,ethnic,political and commercial interests.

All imho -of course .

Targan -where is that write up on the region you said we could have before ?

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Australia could do well if it wasnt hit badly by the exchange of misiles.It has a unique location ,a good deal of resources -including agricultural - and maybe together with New Zeeland could carry on to some extent as an organized country -although hardships and stern internal security measures probably would be needed.

I'm not that negative about internal security. All the Australian and Kiwis that I met were tough and nice people, proud of their country. The wild zone I put in Australia are more for regular neglect than from unrest. The government would not bother controlling all of the vast interior desert. Moreover, I can't imagine someone already living in a remote area move against the governement (what would be the point?). Aborigenes could get more authonomy and probably support the government (as for the Maoris).

Of course you might get unrest in some cities and from refugees (sorry for them but the Australian navy ends up sinking as much as they can after letting in several hundred of thousands). Most unrests will stop with the quick return of electricity. Some people might be upset when looking at their empty bank account but with no more international market, who truly cares? They wouldn't face the epidemic as well.

In my game, Papua-NG remain under their control and they help the Indonesian government retain control over Java and Sumatra. So much for Borneo and the smaller islands (I have the same idea than Jest). They were and remain involved in Korea but never sent troops to Europe. Some relations might also exist with the Thai but these will be limited. Boat people and pirates remain the most important threat

At some point during WWII these guys were virtually alone facing Japan (about 1 to 10). I never recall that they ever thought about surrender and they were able to come up with a working war industry in no time (at least one very nice tank that never entered productions, several interesting smaller vehicles plus impressive (CA-15 and Woomera bomber) and not so impressive aircrafts (CA-3 Wirraway & CA-12 Boomerang), but very good ones.

As I said, their stocks wouldn't be depleted and they would be capable of getting electricity back. Supply might pose problem but nothing that can't be overcome. In addition, for my part, they soon launch 2 aircraft carriers similar to the Chakri Naruebet (Thai) and retain an aircraft industry (Hornet and Harrier). As a result, they send some supply to the U.S. and NATO.

I would also love to have your opinion on their base at Woomera.

[Targan]

Yeah Australia has an arms industry, mostly to support the Australian Defence Forces. We manufacture our own rifles under licence, manufacture ammo in a variety of calibres, we have an advanced (although admittedly small) naval shipbuilding industry. We have our own oil and gas and huge coal reserves. We'd do okay I think.

There are a number of US intelligence bases in Australia. I don't really have an issue with it. Its not like there are huge numbers of US troops here and the US shares some of the intel it gathers through their bases here with us. I think as the decades go by the US trusts Australia more and more. At least they know we are reliable and won't back down from a fight.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yeah Australia has an arms industry, mostly to support the Australian Defence Forces. We manufacture our own rifles under licence, manufacture ammo in a variety of calibres, we have an advanced (although admittedly small) naval shipbuilding industry. We have our own oil and gas and huge coal reserves. We'd do okay I think.

There are a number of US intelligence bases in Australia. I don't really have an issue with it. Its not like there are huge numbers of US troops here and the US shares some of the intel it gathers through their bases here with us. I think as the decades go by the US trusts Australia more and more. At least they know we are reliable and won't back down from a fight.

I agree about all that but my point about Woomera comes from old memory. I believe it is involved with space operations and it was involved in rocket testing. As a result, could it be use to limited space launch that could help restore some satellite network (over time of course)?

[Targan]

Oh right, the Woomera Rocket Range. Actually that was reactivated in the late 1990s to test a series of scramjet designs. Probably still in mothballs in the T2K timeline though.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by headquarters

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..

Bring out the gimp!

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Bring out the gimp!

yeah ..but they couldnt actually bring him out as he was a homocidal maniac 100% of the time except when drugged by horsetranqulizers or blacked out from lack of sleep/food or abundance of blows to the head..

I guess my group isnt strong on the ethic stuff or "heroes" in any classical sense of the word .

They are more like Al Swearengen and his sidekick Dan in Deadwood-only less thought through and more violent .

I often let them encounter some upright ,stand up kind of NPCs to remind them of the origins of the RPG as a genre -but these goodietwoshoes annoy the crap out of them within minutes ,and since they fight fair and try for good outcomes -end up dead in pretty shot order .Once I had a former Marine Sniper harass the party for hours over a few sessions where they had occupied a small village ,set themselves up as lords and thrown the children and some women in a cellar rigged to blow if the locals didnt comply ...The resistance naturally formed .And as the sniper attacks began to really test them they turned to using all available firepower at suspected snipernests -destroying much of their prize village ..Rest assured - most of them were eventually killed when the angry villagers toppled the "regime" in one night of bloody sneak attacks..hhehehe

good times..

[Targan]

Just watching a documentary about Robert Menzies, Australian Prime Minister having gone to England during WWII where he tried as hard as he could to talks sense into Winston Churchill and watching as plan after plan of Churchill's fell apart, despite Menzies having told him they would. Particularly the disasters in North Africa early on, in Greece and then the fall of Singapore. So very often Australian and New Zealand troops have been sent to the other side of the earth and used as cannon fodder. What a stupid waste. ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

Churchill didn't want to antagonise the Japanese before they were at war with Britain and wasn't willing to send sufficient naval assetts or air cover to the Pacific so there was no way Singapore was going to hold out once the Japanese started fighting the Allies. You know how many soldiers were captured by the Japanese in Singapore? About 130,000 for cryin' out loud, 15,000 of them Australians. Most of those 15,000 Australians were subsequently killed by the Japanese or worked to death by them in captivity. It makes me want to scream with frustration because we Australians will fight to the death if required and we are courageous in battle. I'd rather die than surrender, personally. Just make it quick.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Targan

Just watching a documentary about Robert Menzies, Australian Prime Minister having gone to England during WWII where he tried as hard as he could to talks sense into Winston Churchill and watching as plan after plan of Churchill's fell apart, despite Menzies having told him they would. Particularly the disasters in North Africa early on, in Greece and then the fall of Singapore. So very often Australian and New Zealand troops have been sent to the other side of the earth and used as cannon fodder. What a stupid waste. ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

Churchill didn't want to antagonise the Japanese before they were at war with Britain and wasn't willing to send sufficient naval assetts or air cover to the Pacific so there was no way Singapore was going to hold out once the Japanese started fighting the Allies. You know how many soldiers were captured by the Japanese in Singapore? About 130,000 for cryin' out loud, 15,000 of them Australians. Most of those 15,000 Australians were subsequently killed by the Japanese or worked to death by them in captivity. It makes me want to scream with frustration because we Australians will fight to the death if required and we are courageous in battle. I'd rather die than surrender, personally. Just make it quick.

talked to a canadian feller once who claimed that the Canadians saw Montgomery and several other top brass as war criminals for sacrificing tens of thousands of Canadian troops in hare brained schemes.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Targan

ANZACs make REALLY good troops. Used well we can really make a difference. I accept that casualties, sometimes heavy casualties, happen in wars and Australians know that as well as anybody. But the damned British threw away tens of thousands of Australian and New Zealand lives during WWII pretty much for bugger all.

AND they did the same in WWI. I've had the opportunity to interact with the boys from down under on occassion in my long ago military career. They were guys you wanted to cover your back.

[jester]

Originally Posted by headquarters

my party kept a deranged and chemically damaged cannibal in a steel cage for some time . For scientific reasons ..right..

That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what?"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by jester

That kind of reminds me of 28 Days Later, where the rogue soldiers had "Billy" was it tied up out back. Interesting mascot, just wonder about feeding time,

"Joe, you get to feed Billy tonight,"

Joe, "Feed im what?"

Evil leader smiles,

As his former comrades grab hold of him and drag him off kicking and screaming.

must remember that one .

or ofcourse - have some one forget to lock up properly hahaha...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

As for Indonesia invading -it somehow seems that if the Imperial Japanese Forces couldn't do it -the Indonesians wouldn't get any closer than locking themselves in a stalemate in PNG -just like in the 1940s.

Japan in 1942 were overextended in a BIG way with troops in Korea, China, and just about everywhere south and east of there. Also there are indications they never intended to step one foot on Australian mainland soil. They were really only after Papua New Guinea to secure their southern border (there just isn't much they could use in the northern part of Australia, and no way they could have held it anyway).

Indonesia in T2K on the other hand were not spread halfway across the world trying to hold onto various conquests and weren't at war with numerous other countries. Their entire might could be focused squarely on Australia and the space it represented for it's overcrowded islands. Unlike Japan 60 years earlier, Australia does have something Indonesia needs.

Indonesia also has little need to bog themselves down in the mountainous PNG, not when with just a little more effort they could have the flat terrain of northern Australlia.

Now as for a brigade to Centcom, that's extremely unlikely. Australia only has two Divisions TOTAL, with the majority of that strength in the form of reservists. With a Brigade in Korea (which I'm working on an OOB for now) that doesn't leave much at home to resist the Indonesians.

With such minimal strength, you can also rule out completely an offensive action into Indonesia. That country has a comparatively MASSIVE military, and even if not up to the same standard, they'd swamp the Australians with numbers.

[Targan]

One bonus for the ADF is as soon as hostilities with Indonesia heated up they would have a huge influx of people wanting to join the Army, RAN and RAAF. Probably wouldn't need to even consider conscription for the first year or two.

[Legbreaker]

There'd be huge demand for PR/Propaganda people too....

[headquarters]

I agree that Indonesia have something to win by taking Australia in a T2K scenario. But isnt the question if they could do so in a T2K setting?

Indonesia is a diverse country with internal strife and difficult logistics seeing as everything must go by ship. They would face problems on teh same scale that the Imperial Japanese army did imho. The Japanese in 1942 were a mighty opponent. They had over 50 years of indoctrination in their culture, a massive militaryindustrial complex and something like 10 000 000 people under arms all told. The real reason for the nuclear bombings in 1945 were that the US high command rightly concluded that a conventional attack on mainland Japan would be far more risky operation than Operation Overlord, and that the war would drag on for several years before victory was ensured.

We do not know if the Indonesians can be assessed in the same way- undoubtedly fierce people but probably not along the same lines as the 1942 Japanese population.

They Indonesians would be fighting in their own rear against insurgents and separatists of various creeds and ethnicities, as well as trying to project a force large enough to capture a continent, to your shores ,all the while their economy is in a shamble sdue to the breakdown of the global trade economy.

Admittedly the advent of the airmobile infantry would greatly ease their capture of PNG and I guess if the USN isnt available and the Royal Navy is elsewhere too, most minor Island states would fare ill against an attack from whatever invasion force the Indonesians would send.

But the sheer timeframe involved in capturing Northern Australia if it was defended by delaying actions would probably give the you the possibility to mobilize an army of conscripts and rudimentarily arm them to start the reconquista. A possibility for the Indonesians could be a complex operation involving a 5th column,surprise attacks and WMDs. But such a plan has numerous pitfalls, and even if the Indons could get nukes, its doubtful that they could ship enough troops into Australia in a timeframe that would deny you guys the opportunity to mobilize and start driving them out.

Australia is like Russia, only with heat and crocs instead of snow and wolves.

How many Owen guns can be produced in Queensland in a month if all pitch in ?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Japan in 1942 were overextended in a BIG way with troops in Korea, China, and just about everywhere south and east of there. Also there are indications they never intended to step one foot on Australian mainland soil. They were really only after Papua New Guinea to secure their southern border (there just isn't much they could use in the northern part of Australia, and no way they could have held it anyway).

Indonesia in T2K on the other hand were not spread halfway across the world trying to hold onto various conquests and weren't at war with numerous other countries. Their entire might could be focused squarely on Australia and the space it represented for it's overcrowded islands. Unlike Japan 60 years earlier, Australia does have something Indonesia needs.

Indonesia also has little need to bog themselves down in the mountainous PNG, not when with just a little more effort they could have the flat terrain of northern Australlia.

Now as for a brigade to Centcom, that's extremely unlikely. Australia only has two Divisions TOTAL, with the majority of that strength in the form of reservists. With a Brigade in Korea (which I'm working on an OOB for now) that doesn't leave much at home to resist the Indonesians.

With such minimal strength, you can also rule out completely an offensive action into Indonesia. That country has a comparatively MASSIVE military, and even if not up to the same standard, they'd swamp the Australians with numbers.

[Legbreaker]

Why do you think Indonesia would got for PNG? There's no logic to it that I can see. The terrain is just too rough for the effort to be worthwhile.

I agree that Indonesia would be mad to invade in it's RL situation, but if it could have temporarily quelled dissent, perhaps with offers of land for the crowded masses, and organised just their normal standing army, hell, even just a fraction of it, they could have captured, and held (at least to begin with) a sizable area. A totally untenable position in the long term, but if the aim is nothing more than to dump a few million less desirable ethnic minorities....

Indonesia has no hope of defeating Australia, but they could hold some of it provided their logistics were sorted out.

My belief is that Australia won the war, perhaps by throwing the Indonesian military back into the sea, but I can also see a lot of "settlers" showing up, trying to survive for a while before throwing themselves on the mercy of the Australians. With the virtual destruction of mass transport capacity, Australia would have no choice but to absorb them rather than send them back.

Mind you, I'm just throwing ideas out there...

It's worth noting that in the 80's and 90's the Australian military were training to fight the mythical enemy invaders the "Kamarians" who's home country, "Kamaria" was located roughly in the same location as Indonesia...
Yes, there actually were plans to deal with just such a situation.
http://www.4rarassociationsaustralia.com/irc.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1111115959477
http://www.securitychallenges.org.au...rabinSmith.pdf

A decade it two earlier and the mythical enemy was Musoria, which we were told was equipped and organised as well as located in the same general area as the USSR.

[headquarters]

I was thinkig they would want it just to deny its use to Australia.

I agree that the invasion might be pulled of as you describe ( and I was speaking T2K and not RL in my post).

Just airing ideas me as well.

Well - if anyone could do it it would be the Indonesians I guess.

As for contingency plans - a friend of mine who had a clerk job at military intelligence swears he saw plans for repelling an attack from "the west" rather than "the east" in a pile of older docs. Meaning that invasion from Britain and the US wasnt entirely ruled out - at least not theoretically

About Kamarians - we have them to here. Only we call them Havland ( literally Ocean Land) and they are a sneaky bunch of devious and tenacious
troops from the politically unstable nation of Havland. Every ex we have their special forces try to influence our national decision making by sabotaging our infrastructure and oil and gas facilities. Everytime I tell the brass that next ex we surely must hit back and train for the massive amphibious operation th epunitive expedition to Havland will entail? I mean how many times shall we let tham conduct raids onto our territory before we go for regime change there?

..

I never seem to get a full understanding from them on the joke.. I guess after the fall of Musoria we are all wondering what next out on the periphery of the western world..

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Why do you think Indonesia would got for PNG? There's no logic to it that I can see. The terrain is just too rough for the effort to be worthwhile.

I agree that Indonesia would be mad to invade in it's RL situation, but if it could have temporarily quelled dissent, perhaps with offers of land for the crowded masses, and organised just their normal standing army, hell, even just a fraction of it, they could have captured, and held (at least to begin with) a sizable area. A totally untenable position in the long term, but if the aim is nothing more than to dump a few million less desirable ethnic minorities....

Indonesia has no hope of defeating Australia, but they could hold some of it provided their logistics were sorted out.

My belief is that Australia won the war, perhaps by throwing the Indonesian military back into the sea, but I can also see a lot of "settlers" showing up, trying to survive for a while before throwing themselves on the mercy of the Australians. With the virtual destruction of mass transport capacity, Australia would have no choice but to absorb them rather than send them back.

Mind you, I'm just throwing ideas out there...

It's worth noting that in the 80's and 90's the Australian military were training to fight the mythical enemy invaders the "Kamarians" who's home country, "Kamaria" was located roughly in the same location as Indonesia...
Yes, there actually were plans to deal with just such a situation.
http://www.4rarassociationsaustralia.com/irc.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1111115959477
http://www.securitychallenges.org.au...rabinSmith.pdf

A decade it two earlier and the mythical enemy was Musoria, which we were told was equipped and organised as well as located in the same general area as the USSR.