Coal Vs Alcohol

[Adm.Lee]

Coal. Ethanol has too many uses (vehicles, drinking, antiseptic), coal only burns. Plus, for the Wisla Krolowa, there may be a source over in the Liga Handlowy to the west-- they mined coal, IIRC. As for storage, what do you think that barge did before the PCs moved their vehicles and tents onto it?

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Coal. Ethanol has too many uses (vehicles, drinking, antiseptic), coal only burns. Plus, for the Wisla Krolowa, there may be a source over in the Liga Handlowy to the west-- they mined coal, IIRC. As for storage, what do you think that barge did before the PCs moved their vehicles and tents onto it?

solid fuel and old tech engine is the best way to go - its more reliable than many more "modern apparatuses" like a diesel or an alco conversion gasoliner.

Also lots of places on land will have the odd chance of having a cache.

As I recall the Poles shut down all nuclear power plants to minimize risks during the war .This means that a country like Poland would revert to using the traditional coal ( and wood ) for fuel for everything from running a steam generator to heating peoples domiciles,cooking etc etc .

It would be one of the things a band of marauders travelling light and fast would leave behind after raiding a farm or a small hamlet - it weighs and takes up space and has to be traded -it cant be consumed right away like the grain alcohol,the food cache or the unfortunate farmers daughters..Scrounging for it when you set ashore could mean getting some.

Everyone would want coal ,every village would have stacks of it as a necsessary commodity . ( Poland has extensive mining operations /know how in regards to coal and fairly large deposits) .

Well, not everyone would have it .Those who cant get it or afford it - no .But it would be a stock commodity inmyHUMBLEopininon , and in common usage.

Coal can be mined in primitive shafts and with hand tools in many places ( thats why there is always a mining disaster in China - there are 10 000 mines from 10 -10 000 workers ) ,and more than likely many places in Poland will have such operations .I think especially in the south - south east - Silesia.

And not to forget - there are ways to convert coal into synthetic petrol that can run fairly advanced engines-like some turbojets etc .

The energy tables in the core rules needs a serious amount of work .This board shoul set down a voluntary commitee to amend them and then present their findings in final draft . ( For everyone to consider using/not using ) .

As a GM I know I would love a scientific and comprehensive document on this .


All of course - IMHO .

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The other benefit for using a coal burning engine is that you can burn wood (as mentioned previously by Legbreaker), peat or even some forms of solid waste material like dried cow dung. Plus it isn't as likely to burst into flame when exposed to an ignition source.
There's also the advantage that it can be stacked in the open whereas any liquid by necessity must be stored in some sort of tank, typically sealed to prevent evaporation. Even if coal is wet, it can still be burnt (as long as a good fire is burning to help dry it out) but once ethanol gets too much water in it, it's almost useless.

[Slappy]

I think the big vote for coal is that it is what was actually used the last time society had the choice between the two. Before refined petroleum products the world had a choice between alcohol and coal. Both were readily available and the industrial revolution was clearly coal powered.

[kalos72]

Some good answers there...it was bigger question then I had thought tbh. Thanks for all the great insight.

[WallShadow]

Biomass, Municipal Solid Waste, or Trash, it all burns; many towns and cities have power-generating plants dedicated to consuming solid waste. One website dedicated to Biomass fuel technologies shows four, count 'em, _four_ Biomass burning power plants within a few miles of each other in central Long Island! Now, that would make a heck of a power base (pun not intended) for the US Gov't to try to influence back into the national fold. Considering how slowly paper and other "brown" carbon wastes decompose in dark, anaerobic, low-moisture conditions like landfills, it would behoove the neighbors of these landfills to start mining the erstwhile trash back into the energy cycle.

[kato13]

Edit realized i misread biomass and biogas in the above post. I don't know if I have a full list of biomass burners. I'll double check and update if I have it

Here are biogas generators from an EPA report from 1997 I found 136 Land fill gas plants but I don't think i have those.

+-------------+---------------+----------------+-------+-------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| latitude    | longitude     | city           | state | description                                                       | size      |
+-------------+---------------+----------------+-------+-------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| 32.17111969 | -110.94516754 | Pima           | AZ    | IRVINGTON - Land Fill Gas                                         | 4411 kWT  |
| 38.73366547 | -121.80566406 | Yolo           | CA    | M M Yolo Power LLC Facility - Land Fill Gas                       | 1393 kWT  |
| 34.47683716 | -120.12858582 | Santa Barbara  | CA    | Tajiguas Landfill - Land Fill Gas                                 | 2793 kWT  |
| 34.31240463 |  -118.3943634 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Lopez Canyon Landfill - Land Fill Gas                             | 5775 kWT  |
| 34.23215485 | -118.34481049 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Penrose - Land Fill Gas                                           | 6734 kWT  |
| 34.20038986 | -119.18044281 | Ventura        | CA    | Oxnard - Land Fill Gas                                            | 4056 kWT  |
| 34.12810516 | -118.28926086 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Toyon - Land Fill Gas                                             | 3362 kWT  |
| 33.90168762 | -117.10690308 | Riverside      | CA    | Badlands - Land Fill Gas                                          | 314 kWT   |
| 33.88196945 | -117.85057831 | Orange         | CA    | Olinda Generating Plant - Land Fill Gas                           | 4917 kWT  |
| 33.57048035 | -117.54965973 | Orange         | CA    | Prima Desheha Landfill - Land Fill Gas                            | 4342 kWT  |
| 36.36068726 | -119.21144104 | Tulare         | CA    | Tulare City Landfill - Land Fill Gas                              | 1257 kWT  |
| 36.67084885 | -121.65487671 | Monterey       | CA    | Salinas - Land Fill Gas                                           | 1363 kWT  |
| 38.51422501 | -121.12524414 | Sacramento     | CA    | Kiefer LF - Land Fill Gas                                         | 8951 kWT  |
|  38.1386528 | -122.25286865 | Napa           | CA    | American Canyon Power Plant - Land Fill Gas                       | 1224 kWT  |
| 37.98003387 | -122.33314514 | Contra Costa   | CA    | Nove Power Plant - Land Fill Gas                                  | 2322 kWT  |
| 37.45903397 | -122.18605804 | San Mateo      | CA    | Marsh Road Power Plant - Land Fill Gas                            | 2026 kWT  |
| 37.45779037 | -122.12253571 | Santa Clara    | CA    | Byxbee Park Sanitary Landill - Land Fill Gas                      | 463 kWT   |
| 37.44098663 | -121.99057007 | Santa Clara    | CA    | Newby Island I - Land Fill Gas                                    | 1838 kWT  |
| 37.42203903 | -121.81658936 | Santa Clara    | CA    | Newby Island II - Land Fill Gas                                   | 1855 kWT  |
| 37.35544968 | -121.95426941 | Santa Clara    | CA    | Santa Clara - Land Fill Gas                                       | 1074 kWT  |
| 36.68423843 | -121.77420044 | Monterey       | CA    | Marina Landfill Gas - Land Fill Gas                               | 2835 kWT  |
| 32.90217972 | -117.20915222 | San Diego      | CA    | North City Cogeneration Facility - Land Fill Gas                  | 4266 kWT  |
| 32.80677414 | -117.16500854 | San Diego      | CA    | Miramar Landfill MBC - Land Fill Gas                              | 5282 kWT  |
| 37.50977707 | -121.63887024 | Alameda        | CA    | Altamont Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                             | 5095 kWT  |
| 37.56224823 | -121.18013763 | Los Angeles    | CA    | GRAYSON - Land Fill Gas                                           | 9903 kWT  |
| 36.20027542 | -120.10702515 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Palos Verdes Gas to Energy Facility - Land Fill Gas               | 6657 kWT  |
| 34.01301956 | -117.85393524 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Spadra Landfill Gas to Energy - Land Fill Gas                     | 9801 kWT  |
| 37.19267654 | -121.83411407 | Santa Clara    | CA    | Guadalupe Power Plant - Land Fill Gas                             | 1365 kWT  |
| 33.66151428 |  -117.8216629 | Orange         | CA    | Coyote Canyon Steam Plant - Land Fill Gas                         | 7867 kWT  |
| 32.59474182 |  -117.0635376 | San Diego      | CA    | Otay - Land Fill Gas                                              | 3721 kWT  |
|  34.0032692 | -118.02611542 | Los Angeles    | CA    | Puente Hills Energy Recovery - Land Fill Gas                      | 53547 kWT |
| 41.77201843 |  -72.56015015 | Hartford       | CT    | Hartford Landfill - Land Fill Gas                                 | 2072 kWT  |
| 41.58733368 |  -73.41584015 | Litchfield     | CT    | New Milford Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                          | 2790 kWT  |
| 28.09129524 |    -81.829422 | Polk           | FL    | Ridge Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                          | 608 kWT   |
| 29.10115623 |  -81.04624939 | Volusia        | FL    | Volusia County Landfill - Land Fill Gas                           | 2787 kWT  |
| 26.30089188 |  -80.17692566 | Broward        | FL    | CSL Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                  | 8943 kWT  |
| 28.47427368 |  -81.14198303 | Orange         | FL    | STANTON - Land Fill Gas                                           | 13235 kWT |
| 30.61643982 |   -87.3152771 | Escambia       | FL    | Pensacola Florida - Land Fill Gas                                 | 621 kWT   |
| 33.94511032 |  -84.21212006 | Gwinnett       | GA    | B J Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                  | 2548 kWT  |
| 19.71017456 | -155.12231445 | Honolulu       | HI    | Kapaa Hawaii - Land Fill Gas                                      | 971 kWT   |
| 42.33852768 |  -90.83587646 | Linn           | IA    | PRAIRIE CRK - Land Fill Gas                                       | 3062 kWT  |
| 41.66316986 |   -93.3483963 | Polk           | IA    | Metro Methane Recovery Facility - Land Fill Gas                   | 7283 kWT  |
| 41.51818466 |  -90.38543701 | Rock Island    | IL    | Upper Rock - Land Fill Gas                                        | 2745 kWT  |
| 41.61307907 |  -88.06041718 | Will           | IL    | Romeoville - Land Fill Gas                                        | 855 kWT   |
|  41.6254158 |  -87.60374451 | Cook           | IL    | Dolton/138th Street - Land Fill Gas                               | 2445 kWT  |
| 41.39736557 |  -90.59373474 | Rock Island    | IL    | Quad Cities - Land Fill Gas                                       | 734 kWT   |
| 41.36734772 |  -88.42474365 | Grundy         | IL    | Morris - Land Fill Gas                                            | 3782 kWT  |
| 41.84083176 |  -88.33802032 | Kane           | IL    | Settlers Hill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                        | 5395 kWT  |
| 41.65733719 |  -87.56328583 | Cook           | IL    | Chicago - Land Fill Gas                                           | 2075 kWT  |
| 41.82454681 |  -89.48773956 | Lee            | IL    | Dixon - Land Fill Gas                                             | 1557 kWT  |
| 41.99265671 |  -88.31394958 | Kane           | IL    | Woodland Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                    | 1581 kWT  |
| 42.22120285 |  -89.07913208 | Ogle           | IL    | Rockford Electric - Land Fill Gas                                 | 864 kWT   |
| 42.33434296 |  -88.05457306 | Lake           | IL    | Countryside - Land Fill Gas                                       | 5213 kWT  |
| 41.35361862 |  -88.84265137 | La Salle       | IL    | Streator - Land Fill Gas                                          | 763 kWT   |
| 41.01102448 |  -87.93379974 | Kankakee       | IL    | Kankaee County Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas              | 1581 kWT  |
| 40.87327194 |  -88.63406372 | Livingston     | IL    | Biodyne Pontiac - Land Fill Gas                                   | 6233 kWT  |
| 42.11997986 |  -87.84091187 | Cook           | IL    | Lake Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                 | 6435 kWT  |
| 41.61314774 |  -87.55186462 | Cook           | IL    | CID Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                  | 5140 kWT  |
|  41.7689476 |  -88.13507843 | Du Page        | IL    | Greene Valley Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                        | 8428 kWT  |
| 41.90672302 |  -88.25514221 | Du Page        | IL    | Mallard Lake Electric - Land Fill Gas                             | 11098 kWT |
| 38.84874344 |  -90.07885742 | Madison        | IL    | Roxana LF - Land Fill Gas                                         | 3241 kWT  |
| 38.96141434 |  -89.11728668 | Du Page        | IL    | South Barrington Electric - Land Fill Gas                         | 1482 kWT  |
| 38.96521378 |  -89.10618591 | St Clair       | IL    | Milam Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                | 2362 kWT  |
| 40.13613892 |  -87.64478302 | Vermilion      | IL    | Brickyard - Land Fill Gas                                         | 2115 kWT  |
| 40.72678757 |  -89.54416656 | Tazewell       | IL    | Tazewell Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                             | 2356 kWT  |
| 41.61666107 |  -86.24858093 | St Joseph      | IN    | Prairie View Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                         | 3444 kWT  |
| 41.60337067 |  -86.72040558 | La Porte       | IN    | Deercroft Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                            | 3300 kWT  |
| 41.51178741 |  -87.17940521 | Wheeler        | IN    | Wheeler Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                     | 1477 kWT  |
| 39.77236176 |  -86.55418396 | Hendricks      | IN    | Twin Bridges Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                         | 3488 kWT  |
| 41.75725555 |  -71.15093994 | Bristol        | MA    | Fall River Electric - Land Fill Gas                               | 5406 kWT  |
| 41.90988541 |    -71.118927 | Bristol        | MA    | Taunton Landfill - Land Fill Gas                                  | 1701 kWT  |
| 41.98715973 |  -70.85933685 | Plymouth       | MA    | Halifax Electric - Land Fill Gas                                  | 1760 kWT  |
| 42.02957916 |  -70.95529175 | Plymouth       | MA    | East Bridgewater - Land Fill Gas                                  | 3496 kWT  |
| 42.17023468 |   -71.0617218 | Norfolk        | MA    | Randolph Electric - Land Fill Gas                                 | 1892 kWT  |
| 42.17761993 |  -72.56256866 | Hampden        | MA    | Chicopee Electric - Land Fill Gas                                 | 1375 kWT  |
| 42.62851334 |  -71.29647827 | Middlesex      | MA    | Lowell Landfill - Land Fill Gas                                   | 764 kWT   |
| 42.55947876 |  -71.90870667 | Worcester      | MA    | Pinetree Power Fitchburg Inc - Land Fill Gas                      | 1707 kWT  |
| 39.10031509 |  -77.14025879 | Montgomery     | MD    | Gude - Land Fill Gas                                              | 1992 kWT  |
| 38.87628937 |  -76.72486877 | Prince Georges | MD    | Pr Georges Cty Brown Station Rd Sanitary Landfill - Land Fill Gas | 2310 kWT  |
| 42.22935104 |  -84.48254395 | Washtenaw      | MI    | Arbor Hills - Land Fill Gas                                       | 14968 kWT |
| 42.20931244 |  -83.16123199 | Wayne          | MI    | Riverview Energy Systems - Land Fill Gas                          | 6044 kWT  |
| 44.37649918 |  -85.25299072 | Genessee       | MI    | Peoples Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                        | 3496 kWT  |
| 43.21973038 |  -83.93058777 | Genesee        | MI    | Brent Run Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                      | 913 kWT   |
| 43.07219696 |  -85.95366669 | Ottawa         | MI    | Ottawa Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                         | 5232 kWT  |
| 42.99755478 |  -83.94850922 | Shiawassee     | MI    | Venice Resources Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                     | 1298 kWT  |
| 42.95320129 |  -82.43553925 | Calhoun        | MI    | C & C Electric - Land Fill Gas                                    | 2453 kWT  |
| 42.92102432 |  -83.64743042 | Genesee        | MI    | Grand Blanc Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                    | 2561 kWT  |
| 42.89045715 |  -83.84951782 | Seymore        | MI    | Seymour Road Generating Station - Land Fill Gas                   | 708 kWT   |
| 42.78264999 |  -84.57671356 | Clinton        | MI    | Granger Electric Generating Station 1 - Land Fill Gas             | 3048 kWT  |
| 42.74847031 |  -84.76911163 | Clinton        | MI    | Granger Electric Generating Station 2 - Land Fill Gas             | 3577 kWT  |
| 42.49632263 |  -83.62306976 | Oakland        | MI    | Lyon Development - Land Fill Gas                                  | 3201 kWT  |
| 41.89353943 |  -84.06127167 | Lenawee        | MI    | Adrian Energy Associates LLC - Land Fill Gas                      | 2208 kWT  |
| 42.27996826 |  -83.38439178 | Wayne          | MI    | Sumpter Energy Associates - Land Fill Gas                         | 11518 kWT |
|  42.2818718 |  -83.74845123 | Ann Arbor      | MI    | Ann Arbor Generating - Land Fill Gas                              | 834 kWT   |
| 44.78015518 |  -93.03468323 | Dakota         | MN    | Pine Bend - Land Fill Gas                                         | 10445 kWT |
| 44.86407089 |  -93.44171143 | Hennepin       | MN    | Woodlake Sanitary Services Inc - Land Fill Gas                    | 2732 kWT  |
| 35.64407349 |   -81.2429657 | Catawba        | NC    | Blackburn Co-Generation - Land Fill Gas                           | 1937 kWT  |
| 35.35169983 |  -80.68260956 | Cabarrus       | NC    | Charlotte Motor Speedway - Land Fill Gas                          | 2542 kWT  |
| 36.16527176 |  -80.24092865 | Forsyth        | NC    | Salem Energy Systems LLC - Land Fill Gas                          | 3555 kWT  |
| 43.26096344 |  -70.98382568 | Strafford      | NH    | Turnkey Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                     | 6008 kWT  |
| 43.26096344 |  -70.98382568 | Strafford      | NH    | Turnkey Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                     | 3331 kWT  |
| 40.01053619 |  -74.41391754 | Ocean          | NJ    | Ocean County Landfill - Land Fill Gas                             | 5184 kWT  |
| 40.43660355 |  -74.41681671 | Middlesex      | NJ    | O Brien Biogas IV LLC - Land Fill Gas                             | 10295 kWT |
| 40.29259872 |  -74.07341766 | Monmouth       | NJ    | Monmouth Landfill Gas to Energy Project - Land Fill Gas           | 7479 kWT  |
| 40.78750229 |  -74.12737274 | Bergen         | NJ    | Balefill - Land Fill Gas                                          | 4825 kWT  |
| 43.23977661 |  -79.00867462 | Niagara        | NY    | Model City Energy - Land Fill Gas                                 | 513 kWT   |
| 43.09772491 |  -76.30088043 | Seneca         | NY    | Seneca Energy - Land Fill Gas                                     | 11817 kWT |
| 43.04133224 |  -77.78071594 | Monroe         | NY    | Monroe Livingston Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                    | 2357 kWT  |
| 43.03838348 |  -75.10506439 | Herkimer       | NY    | Mohawk Valley Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas               | 215 kWT   |
| 41.37810135 |  -74.36186218 | Orange         | NY    | Middletown LFG LTD Conversion Site 2&3 - Land Fill Gas            | 6963 kWT  |
| 43.10433578 |  -77.42623138 | Monroe         | NY    | High Acres Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                           | 3378 kWT  |
| 41.38647842 |  -81.44025421 | Cuyahoga       | OH    | Cuyahoga Regional Landfill - Land Fill Gas                        | 3661 kWT  |
| 40.00323868 |  -76.68357849 | York           | PA    | Modern Landfill Production Plant - Land Fill Gas                  | 4140 kWT  |
| 41.48302841 |  -75.53220367 | Lackawanna     | PA    | Archbald Power Station - Land Fill Gas                            | 4286 kWT  |
| 40.17325211 |  -74.85427094 | Fairless       | PA    | Fairless - Land Fill Gas                                          | 10480 kWT |
| 40.25891113 |  -75.61555481 | Montgomery     | PA    | Stowe Power Production Plant - Land Fill Gas                      | 4642 kWT  |
| 42.05770493 |  -80.04340363 | Erie           | PA    | Lakeview Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                             | 4613 kWT  |
| 40.29420471 |  -76.42571259 | Lebanon        | PA    | Lebanon Methane Recovery - Land Fill Gas                          | 830 kWT   |
| 41.42422104 |  -75.58776093 | Lackawanna     | PA    | Keystone Landfill - Land Fill Gas                                 | 5743 kWT  |
| 40.84716797 |  -75.25576782 | Northampton    | PA    | Green Knight Energy Center - Land Fill Gas                        | 6523 kWT  |
| 41.82785034 |  -71.51813507 | Providence     | RI    | Ridgewood Providence Power Partners LP - Land Fill Gas            | 13603 kWT |
| 36.19981766 |   -86.8953476 | Davidson       | TN    | M M Nashville - Land Fill Gas                                     | 1334 kWT  |
| 36.13816452 |  -84.02542114 | Anderson       | TN    | Chestnut Ridge Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                       | 3106 kWT  |
| 33.01971817 |   -96.9914093 | Denton         | TX    | DFW Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                  | 4496 kWT  |
| 29.72243118 |  -95.44458771 | Travis         | TX    | Sunset Farms - Land Fill Gas                                      | 2219 kWT  |
| 38.67649841 |  -77.20688629 | Fairfax        | VA    | I 95 Landfill Phase II - Land Fill Gas                            | 3319 kWT  |
| 38.67649841 |  -77.20688629 | Fairfax        | VA    | I 95 Landfill Phase I - Land Fill Gas                             | 3191 kWT  |
|   37.443573 |  -77.29949951 | Henrico        | VA    | Richmond Electric - Land Fill Gas                                 | 1627 kWT  |
| 47.29391098 | -122.50749207 | Pierce         | WA    | Tacoma City Landfill - Land Fill Gas                              | 1054 kWT  |
| 47.22454834 | -122.40500641 | Pierce         | WA    | Puyallup Energy Recovery Co LLC - Land Fill Gas                   | 1734 kWT  |
| 43.75391388 |  -87.73967743 | Erie           | WI    | Mallard Ridge - Land Fill Gas                                     | 1512 kWT  |
| 42.88702011 |  -88.00970459 | Milwaukee      | WI    | Metro Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                                | 6147 kWT  |
| 43.14849091 |  -88.12438202 | Washington     | WI    | Omega Hills Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                          | 6417 kWT  |
| 44.07577515 |  -88.52490234 | Winnebago      | WI    | Winnebago County Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas            | 2378 kWT  |
| 42.55368805 |  -88.02452087 | Kenosha        | WI    | Pheasant Run Landfill Gas Recovery - Land Fill Gas                | 6155 kWT  |
| 43.43391037 |  -88.63264465 | Dodge          | WI    | Superior Glacier Ridge Landfil - Land Fill Gas                    | 1301 kWT  |