Special Forces Units

[Raellus]

I'm not sure how to properly phrase this, but I think the composition of an SOF team would depend on the level of its HQ. In other words, a unit controlled at the Army or Corps level would probably be very mixed, as per your example.

You could even push it one step further. I see SOF units of mixed nationality at the Corps level and above. For example, German 3rd Army would likely have a unit tasked with coastal recon, beach clearance, and raiding made up of U.S. SEALS and Marine Recon operators, British SBS, German SKS, etc.

[pmulcahy11b]

Would KSK even exist in T2K? It wasn't stood up until 1997, with selection starting in 1996; KSK training, if you start from the ground up, is a 21-month process.

[kato13]

Wiki link Kommando Spezialkrafte

[sic1701]

I'm not convinced that mixed units would play nicely together at that specific operational level. I'm sure they're all professional enough to get the job done, but you have to trust the people you work with with your lives in those endeavours and if you're Army Special Forces-trained and used to doing things the Army way, you may not necessarily know, or see how it can be more efficiently done in that manner, the Navy SEAL way. A Ranger master sergeant and a SEAL chief petty officer may recognize the benefits of shared experience and points-of-view in how to tackle a problem, but may not necessarily agree on the best course of action.

And units that have trained together know exactly what each member of that unit is doing, needs to do, when to do it, and frequently how to do it, with the duplication of effort and multitasking that is necessary to do each others' jobs in case of casualties or timing issues. A mixed grab-bag of Army SF and Rangers, Navy SEALs, Air Force Pararescue or Combat Controllers, or Marine Corps Force Recon may not necessarily be the sum of their parts, especially if thrown together ad-hoc in a warzone.

In fiction it works wonderfully and the gestalt triumphs over all in their path, but in reality the blend would probably require a lot of time together as well as a strong leader to cut through the multiservice bullshit and turf wars.

I am reminded of something from Richard Marcinko's first "Rogue Warrior" book, where he discussed the formation of the U.S. Army's Delta Force; to paraphrase him, the powers-that-be thought Colonel Charlie Beckwith (the founder of Delta) was unduly influenced by the British SAS, and Marcinko thought Beckwith was unduly influenced by the Marx Brothers.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by sic1701

In fiction it works wonderfully and the gestalt triumphs over all in their path, but in reality the blend would probably require a lot of time together as well as a strong leader to cut through the multiservice bullshit and turf wars.

I am reminded of something from Richard Marcinko's first "Rogue Warrior" book, where he discussed the formation of the U.S. Army's Delta Force; to paraphrase him, the powers-that-be thought Colonel Charlie Beckwith (the founder of Delta) was unduly influenced by the British SAS, and Marcinko thought Beckwith was unduly influenced by the Marx Brothers.

Ahh, turf wars -- they sink so many otherwise good plans. Every has to have their piece of the pie. Happens even in police agencies and civilian businesses. It, in no small way, sank Eagle Claw (the attempted rescue of the Iranian Hostages in 1979). It's kept the US Army from having any armed fixed-wing aircraft, and therefore forced aircraft on the Air Force they didn't want and that the Army desperately needed (like the A-10), and forced them to turn helicopters into rotary-wing versions of armed fixed-wing aircraft.

As for Marcinko -- I've read his stuff, and I'm not impressed (with his fiction and nonfiction). And Beckwith was heavily influenced by the SAS -- they were the big kids on the block in the special ops field at the time. That's not wrong, and he blended Vietnam experience with SAS training. Marcinko's other comment -- that's just inter-service sniping.

Rant over.

[Raellus]

Paul, in my mind, the W. German military would have seen the need for something like KSK as the T2K (v1.0) Cold War heated up. Especially once folks in the higher levels of the Bundeswehr started kicking around the idea of reunification by coup de main, something like KSK would come really in handy. The difference between IRW and v1.0 timeline dates isn't too great, IMHO, to preclude such an occurance.

Sic1701, SOF of various allied nations routinely train with one another so interoperability wouldn't be that much of a stretch. IIRC, the German GSG9 was pretty much set up in imitation of and conjuction with the SAS (or the latter's counter terrorist sub-units were copied from the GSG9). And by the later stages of the Twilight War, homogenous SOF units would have been suffered considerable attrition. Since SOF training takes a considerable amount of time to do right, it makes sense that operators from various units- including allied units- be pooled together in order to complete the operations at hand. There wouldn't be time to wait until the next batch of freshly trained SEALs showed up from the states. If there were some SBS blokes in the neighborhood, though...

I mean, if you were a SEAL, would you rather work with some replacements that were volunteers from a "local" Marine unit or some proper SBS commandos?

[jester]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Sic1701, SOF of various allied nations routinely train with one another so
I mean, if you were a SEAL, would you rather work with some replacements that were volunteers from a "local" Marine unit or some proper SBS commandos?

Marines would be the good choice. Because they would have familiarity with one another and their operations, doctine would be similiar as well as equipment and other operational considerations. I would even go as far as saying that, some of the training would be on par again allowing for a smoother ability to operate with one another. And of course the whole phsycological focus of operating with your countrymen, so you would not feel you were amongst strangers.