Killing Carriers

[Webstral]

Thanks for chiming in regarding the human factor, adimar. This is my favorite explanation for things that are otherwise difficult to explain. Decisions made by chuckleheads in high places can ruin the most well-conceived plans executed by the best forces.

Webstral

[JHart]

Two things for Midway

During an overhaul in 1986 in Japan new bulges were added to improve freeboard and seakeeping. The bulges actually made the problem worse, making flight operations impossible in 6-10 foot seas. This problem was never corrected.

Could cause trouble if attacked in a storm

After being the first aircraft carrier forward deployed for 17 years in Yokosuka, Midway returned to North Island Naval Air Station in San Diego for decommissioning in April of 1992.

The former USS Midway, moved to the Navy's mothball fleet in Bremerton, Washington, was available as a donation. Eligible recipients included any US state, possession, municipal government, or non-profit entity. The recipient of the aircraft carrier was required to maintain the ship as a non-moving museum or memorial. The San Diego Carrier Museum refurbished and converted the former USS Midway aircraft carrier into a unique, interactive educational and entertainment complex, featuring the excitement of carrier aviation. Opening in late 2001, it includes exhibits, activities, programs and attractions for all walks of life, and play an important role in the continued revitalization of downtown San Diego. The Midway is located at Navy Pier, at the foot of San Diego's revitalized downtown district.

Would need to research when she was stricken. Being mothballed means it could be reactivated. She could easily have been mothballed and reactivated in '95-'96. I wonder if she could become an Army helo carrier, providing another amphib force for the Med, Gulf or SE Asia

I toured the Midway in San Diego a couple of years ago and it was impressive.

For the Coral Sea

Life International, a non-profit organization, obtained CORAL SEA (CV-43) from the Navy in 1990 for 15 dollars under a plan to use the ship as a shelter for homeless residents of Baltimore. The aircraft carrier was scrapped at the Seawitch Marine Salvage Company at the Fairfield Marine Terminal in the outer harbor during 1994. The top of the ship`s mast was removed at the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard to ensure the carrier would have enough clearance to pass under the Chesapeake Bay bridges as it was towed to Baltimore.

Found everything at globalsecurity.org

[JHart]

I’ve never served in the navy,
Is it feasible that a couple of soviet agents stationed onboard key USN vessels sabotaged them to disrupt their operations during a massed missile attack?
i.e. the attack's time was preplanned and the agents were talled to disrupt the ###wierd protective gadjet### at 21:32 moscow time.
(even if it only for a couple of minutes)

Anything is possible, but a lot of things have to go right. The Navy does background security checks for a reason. Assuming you get a sleeper aboard, it is hard to communicate. Coms are controlled on board, but a coded message could be sent to the sleeper. Its also hard to shutdown a system, there are backups for most everything. Even if you somehow shut down the AEGIS system on a ship, another is usually nearby.

And it would have to be a sleeper, unless the KGB can find some suicidal traitors.

[Bluedwarf]

Greetings

It strikes me there are a few details overlooked. First, since we are not talking about a land war, water play a much bigger role. Then there is a type of weapon I understand was in use that would be perfect for this that has not been mentioned, but more on that in a minute.

-Moderate to strong storms can effectively ground all aircraft on a carrier, while the soviet land-based aircraft could launch and then rise above the weather at about 200nm to launch. The violent motions of the ships, not to mention green water getting to the gun barrels rendering the guns of the smaller screening craft inoperable, will dramatically reduce the combat effectiveness of the anti-aircraft screen, forcing the defence to rely primarily on missiles and making it harder to detect wave-skimming missiles. Further, the large waves will mess with targeting systems of both sides, and that would reduce the percentage of missiles that maintain correct lock. That is a sword that strikes both ways, but as most modern Soviet missiles would lock into the radar transmissions and heat of the ships that would be effected less than the radar guided point defence missiles attacking them. Since the north Atlantic is known for it's nasty weather, a Soviet strike timed to make the most of the storm could easily prove wise and profitable for them. Just ask the English, especially where the "Invincible Armarda" of Spanish warships are concerned...

-Oil rigs in the North Atlantic also report occasional freak waves, up to 50m high or more. One of these could not be controlled by the Soviets, but they would make a mess of screening warships such as frigates and destroyers. While a carrier could well survive them, it may clean a lot of excess planes from the deck at an inopportune time, and could capsize them if they were focused on something else and did not maneuver into position to survive such a wave( like the captain was focussed on launching aircraft, for example).

-The russians had developed in the early 80's a new type of mine that could be dropped from even fishing vesseles, let alone old subs or warships. Rather than floating on the surface, these mines would sit on the bottom and wait for a warship (or, more exactly, a ship with sonar that did not have the right IFF signal in the sonar) to pass overhead. The sonar ping then activated the mine, launching a torpedo into the ship from underneath.

Now a screening fleet would usually be pinging, as are fishing boats, coincedently, but it would not take much for such a minefield to be laid with mines that were programmed to activate when they recieved a given signal, if they don't already have them. Then, while the fleet chases the sub giving off the signal, it will take them some time to realize that the torpedoes are not coming from a hidden wolfpack, by which time they could well be in the middle of a minefield. Throw in a real wolfpack, and the CBG will have a nightmare under the water.

Of course, combine any of these, and you could well deal with more than 5 CBG's without needing to resort to nukes. Nature is fickle, especially at sea, and could well throw it's weight against either, or even both sides, as history can tell.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Bluedwarf

Greetings

It strikes me there are a few details overlooked. First, since we are not talking about a land war, water play a much bigger role. Then there is a type of weapon I understand was in use that would be perfect for this that has not been mentioned, but more on that in a minute.

-Moderate to strong storms can effectively ground all aircraft on a carrier, while the soviet land-based aircraft could launch and then rise above the weather at about 200nm to launch. The violent motions of the ships, not to mention green water getting to the gun barrels rendering the guns of the smaller screening craft inoperable, will dramatically reduce the combat effectiveness of the anti-aircraft screen, forcing the defence to rely primarily on missiles and making it harder to detect wave-skimming missiles. Further, the large waves will mess with targeting systems of both sides, and that would reduce the percentage of missiles that maintain correct lock. That is a sword that strikes both ways, but as most modern Soviet missiles would lock into the radar transmissions and heat of the ships that would be effected less than the radar guided point defence missiles attacking them. Since the north Atlantic is known for it's nasty weather, a Soviet strike timed to make the most of the storm could easily prove wise and profitable for them. Just ask the English, especially where the "Invincible Armarda" of Spanish warships are concerned...

-Oil rigs in the North Atlantic also report occasional freak waves, up to 50m high or more. One of these could not be controlled by the Soviets, but they would make a mess of screening warships such as frigates and destroyers. While a carrier could well survive them, it may clean a lot of excess planes from the deck at an inopportune time, and could capsize them if they were focused on something else and did not maneuver into position to survive such a wave( like the captain was focussed on launching aircraft, for example).

-The russians had developed in the early 80's a new type of mine that could be dropped from even fishing vesseles, let alone old subs or warships. Rather than floating on the surface, these mines would sit on the bottom and wait for a warship (or, more exactly, a ship with sonar that did not have the right IFF signal in the sonar) to pass overhead. The sonar ping then activated the mine, launching a torpedo into the ship from underneath.

Now a screening fleet would usually be pinging, as are fishing boats, coincedently, but it would not take much for such a minefield to be laid with mines that were programmed to activate when they recieved a given signal, if they don't already have them. Then, while the fleet chases the sub giving off the signal, it will take them some time to realize that the torpedoes are not coming from a hidden wolfpack, by which time they could well be in the middle of a minefield. Throw in a real wolfpack, and the CBG will have a nightmare under the water.

Of course, combine any of these, and you could well deal with more than 5 CBG's without needing to resort to nukes. Nature is fickle, especially at sea, and could well throw it's weight against either, or even both sides, as history can tell.

All very good stuff. I like it!

Webstral

[jester]

I toured the Midway, and had a freind who came from her before the Desert. We also got a few guys from her after she was put down.

We must remember, she was pretty old and in sad shape when they put her to bed. The museum in my view was a let down. And like I said she wasn't in all that great shape. She also had a very long service life.

As for taking her out. A couple sleepers, maybe a team of operatives, say 4, could do ALOT of damage to her.

If I were a sleeper on her, I would do the following:

Several Thermite grenades in the various pipes and lines that run unsecured througout the ship carrying Jet Fuel and Oxygen.

I would also toss a WP into her engine compartment, the passageways to the magazines and near the fuel tanks. Remember, she was diesel powered so she also had a fuel filter, toss a WP or thermite there too.

And a WP in the Marines and Master at Arms areas.

Another target, the flight deck or the bomb elevator or topside fuel pumps. A burning plane full of fuel and bombs with a couple secondary explosions/fires near the bomb elevators or fuel areas. Figure 4 men with half a dozen such devices could surely put it out of action and with luck cripple it. The ship is not that wide. Two WPs inside could block the internal passageways which would cause a nice disruption.

Those are some things that would have worked to take down a diesel ship by a small team. Those are some of the ideas off the top of my head.