British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[helbent4]

Leg,

For that matter, a friend of mine related how when they were clearing out some basement rooms at a militia armoury here in Vancouver they found uniforms and kit dating back to WWII.

A different friend said his reserve unit saved weapons that had been written off or otherwise forgotten. Like FN C1A1s and C2A1s that had been rebuilt, 81mm mortars that were forgotten when the regiment (the Seaforth's) got rid of it's mortar platoon, C6 GPMGs and C9 SAWs that had been declared inoperative but rebuilt over time by bored armourers.

For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition, and the Northern Rangers certainly use the SMLE through the north.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by helbent4

For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition...

Tony

In my T2K timeline, the various governments have weapons like these farmed out to young teenagers and hunters.

[Legbreaker]

Although the letter of the law says certain weapons and classes of weapons are illegal and through a number of amnesties, buyback schemes, etc they've all been removed from public hands, you can bet on finding all sorts of goodies squirrelled away out of sight.
Here in Australia, semiautomatic rifles and shotguns have been illegal (or HEAVILY restricted) since the early 90's. I personally know of a few caches here and there though of unregistered weapons which if found by the police would get the owners a serious stint in prison.
It's funny really that the weapons themselves are illegal, but the ammo is still freely available (provided you have a liciense). Even some parts can be had fairly easily over the counter.
Depending where in the country one is, sometimes you can get away with carrying an officially illegal firearm - the police themselves in outback (aka country) areas often have a few tucked away for hunting on their days off (sometimes obtained when handed in by concerned citizens for "destruction".

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I wouldn't be surprised to see the British 25-pounder field gun recalled to service either because I think the British were still producing ammunition into the 1980s for it to sell to former Commonwealth countries that still used it as their main artillery.

Given the situation in Northern Ireland at the time, the British Army apparently had a very large fleet of Saracen APCs but there are other vehicles that would probably have been still in use even though they were discontinued in the real world such as the Fox armoured car (withdrawn from service in 1994 I think)

As for war stores, I would suspect that there would be huge stocks of L1A1s, Sterlings and 7.62mm Brens along with lesser stocks of SMLEs, Stens and Vickers Guns. By way of an example, here in Australia the army was disposing of war-stored SMLE rifles as late as 1991 or 92 in Western Australia (I don't know about the other states).

Fox was indeed withdrawn in the mid 1990's IRL, but in a Twilight Timeline (particularly v1), I think it's highly likely that it would have stayed in service, particularly with the Territorial Army Recce units. You'd also likely see a number of Ferrets.

As well as older equipment remaining in use, there's also the possibility that newer equipment might have come into service earlier if the Cold War had carried on (for example IRL Challenger 2 didn't go into service until 1998, although first deliveries took place in 1994). In my T2K World I also brought forward the introduction of the A2 version of the L85 so that it came into service in time to equip front line units (as a knock on effect this obviously led to increased numbers of A1's in reserve stocks).

You're right about the Army having a number of different vehicles because of the situation in Ulster...off the top of my head I would expect that as well as the Saracens some Humber Pigs and Shorland armoured cars (Long Wheel Base Land Rovers fitted with some armour plating and a machine gun turret) might make an appearance on the mainland during 1998 and 1999. Tigger may well be able to suggest others...

Just a few thoughts...

Cheers

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

As well as older equipment remaining in use, there's also the possibility that newer equipment might have come into service earlier if the Cold War had carried on (for example IRL Challenger 2 didn't go into service until 1998, although first deliveries took place in 1994). In my T2K World I also brought forward the introduction of the A2 version of the L85 so that it came into service in time to equip front line units (as a knock on effect this obviously led to increased numbers of A1's in reserve stocks).

A lot of that stuff gets wonky when you start figuring in the Cold War not ending -- like with the L85A2, had West Germany not ditched the G11 project and slashed military spending fire-sale style, HK wouldn't have gone bankrupt, and wouldn't have been bought out by Royal Ordnance and probably wouldn't have gotten the contract to upgrade the L85. No Gulf War means the L85 wouldn't have been so hashed up when the rubber really met the road, which might not have provoked the powers that be to start looking at fixes.

On the other hand, Gulf War or not, a product-improved version of the L85 or a completely new replacement weapon was very overdue (as pretty much everyone in the British Army knew by the time of the Twilight War). I could see an upgrade program being implemented, possibly during '95 when the Sino-Soviet War kicks off or maybe even an emergency crash program when the balloon went up in Europe and troops began mysteriously losing the L85s and reequipping themselves with anything else that would shoot.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I could see an upgrade program being implemented, possibly during '95 when the Sino-Soviet War kicks off.

That was exactly the justification that I used. That said, the A1 version remains by far the most common variant, particularly since most of my focus has been on what's been happening in the UK itself rather than in Europe, where most of the A2's ended up.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

You're right about the Army having a number of different vehicles because of the situation in Ulster...off the top of my head I would expect that as well as the Saracens some Humber Pigs and Shorland armoured cars (Long Wheel Base Land Rovers fitted with some armour plating and a machine gun turret) might make an appearance on the mainland during 1998 and 1999. Tigger may well be able to suggest others...

Just a few thoughts...

Cheers

Off the top of my head other vehicles that might be available would be some of the Saracens and Pigs, as well as a load of the 'Piglets' - the armoured landrovers that preceeded the Snatch/CAV100, the Tangia armoured landrovers that the RUC/PSNI use plus all the armoured cars they use - by this I mean they are armoured variants of ordinary cars, as opposed to the normal definition of armoured cars. Tactica APCs were in used with 321 EOD over here, but I'd imagine they'd be a specialist set up inside which might not be so much use in a general role - as an aside I think the British Nuclear Constabulary (responsible for policing non military nuclear sites, as opposed to cops with nukes) used Tacticas as well. Pretty much any vehicle that served in NI, from land rovers to four tonners to diggers would have had an add on armour package, so I think there might be a lot of that available. I don't remember seeing Fox's or Ferrets over here, but I know they were deployed, although I think it was out in the cuds more than the cities. I can remember seeing rows of Saladins and Saracens parked up at Gosford Castle in Armagh. Saxons were used here, although in T2K I think they'd very rapidly have disappeared back to frontline service. Also the Tavern APV might have appeared, although I think it might be too late for use in a standard T2K timeline - which would be no great loss! It was the most modern vehicle used in NI, and they have already been scrapped and sold off through Witham Specialist Tenders as apparently it was absolute bollocks. It was based off a commercial cash in transit van, had huge reliability problems and massively limited space inside.

Heres a few links for inspiration;

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...n-Ireland-Pics

http://www.regimental-art.com/northern_ireland.htm

http://www.clash-of-steel.org/galler...index=vehicles

http://www.arrse.co.uk/rlc/104151-no...equipment.html

http://www.warwheels.net/TavernAPVindex.html

[TiggerCCW UK]

Forgot to mention the Shorland - I've never seen one here, although I know both the RUC and UDR used them. Not sure when they were retired.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

Forgot to mention the Shorland - I've never seen one here, although I know both the RUC and UDR used them. Not sure when they were retired.

I've always been guilty of overlooking the Shorland...

Edit....one of my all time favourite T2K British vehicles would have to be the Alvis Stalwart converted into a gun truck...

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I personally know of a few caches here and there though of unregistered weapons which if found by the police would get the owners a serious stint in prison.

Same here.

[dragoon500ly]

Back in 1943 the US Army Ordnance Dept was looking for a very heavily armored tank to use for attacking heavily fortified enemy positions as well as being invelnerable against all known enemy tanks. It was to have a maximum armor protection of 8 inches (300mm) and was to be armed with the newly developed T5E1 105mm cannon.

Five pilot models of the T95 Gun Motor Carriage were to be built, but due to their complex construction, only two were built by March 1945, when the project was canceled. One was destroyed by fire during one of its trail runs, one is at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland and the third is at Fort Knox, Kentucky. That's right, three models were built although the official records stated two.

When I first heard this story, I was able to look at the one on display at Ft. Knox, and I've seen photos of the remains of the burned out one. Never have had the chance to get to APG, but I have been told that there is one on display there, near the Elefant.

The story goes on that the third one was located inside a set of older warehouses that were being torn down. So the US Army managed to lose a 95-ton prototype....

Kind of makes you wonder just what is stored in government warehouses?

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Leg,
For that matter, the cadets apparently use FNs (C1A1s) and SMLEs chambered for .22 ammunition, and the Northern Rangers certainly use the SMLE through the north.

Tony

The Cadets Canada and Canadian Rangers use the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I in the .303.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

The Cadets Canada and Canadian Rangers use the Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk I in the .303.

That sounds about right. I've seen references that the Lee-Enfields issued to the Canadian Rangers was .303, not 7.62x51mm.

I have seen references who cite that the Lee-Enfields that were used by Cadets were re-chambered to .22LR (now they use air rifles). Several people I know who were in Cadets mentioned C1A1s, but it's possible this was only a local thing and not widespread, something in the past (like, 80's or 90's) or they were bullshitting. At any rate, for the purpose of my game I assume there were still stocks of FNs out there up until the 90's, when they were repurposed for national defence.

As for American weapons, I was reading how a large cache of Springfield '03s were found in 1977 and 1996 and distributed for JROTC/ceremonial use/civilian sale. So yeah, I would guess there's a lot of that stuff out there.

Tony

[perardua]

British cadet forces have Lee Enfields chambered for .22 rounds for target shooting, and up until recently had the L98 Cadet Rifle, a bolt action (and utterly useless) version of the L85. The thinking behind the L98 was that a bolt action rifle would be less attractive to possible theft, and harder for a cadet to do damage with than a sem-automatic weapon, should they make some kind of mistake. Despite what some people seem to think, no regular, unless they are former cadets or serving as an instructor or liasion with cadets, should ever have the misfortune of being in the same room as one of these weapons. Still, at the bare minimum they could be cannibalised for parts for L85s, as there is a reasonable amount of compatibility.

However, in real life the L98 has been replaced with a version of the L85 limited to semi-automatic fire only, the idea being that it is actually safer as this weapon can be fitted with a blank firing attachment, and not having to re-cock the weapon (with an awkwardly placed and designed cocking handle) each time means that more control can be maintained over the weapon. This weapon would also be more attractive in a Twilight scenario.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by perardua

British cadet forces have Lee Enfields chambered for .22 rounds for target shooting, and up until recently had the L98 Cadet Rifle, a bolt action (and utterly useless) version of the L85. The thinking behind the L98 was that a bolt action rifle would be less attractive to possible theft, and harder for a cadet to do damage with than a sem-automatic weapon, should they make some kind of mistake. Despite what some people seem to think, no regular, unless they are former cadets or serving as an instructor or liasion with cadets, should ever have the misfortune of being in the same room as one of these weapons. Still, at the bare minimum they could be cannibalised for parts for L85s, as there is a reasonable amount of compatibility.

However, in real life the L98 has been replaced with a version of the L85 limited to semi-automatic fire only, the idea being that it is actually safer as this weapon can be fitted with a blank firing attachment, and not having to re-cock the weapon (with an awkwardly placed and designed cocking handle) each time means that more control can be maintained over the weapon. This weapon would also be more attractive in a Twilight scenario.

Ah, the L98 - what a truly horrendous piece of When I started with the cadets we used the .303 Mk 4 Lee Enfield, which I really loved, but in fairness it was a bit of a handful for a 12 year old We also used the L81A1, which was a variant of the Parker Hale M82 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Hale_M82)

Personally I really like the L81A1, despite ARRSE's damning view of it here http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/L81A2_Cadet_Target_Rifle

In fairness, I'd have been using it before they discovered any of the problems, and I was comparing it directly to the L98, but I did like it, and unlike the L98 I could pretty much hit anything I pointed it at - I'm pretty happy that I managed to rank second in Northern Ireland with it, consistently shooting 2" groups at 600 yards with ring sights. The L98 on the other hand I could barely hit a barn wall with, even if I was inside the barn

When did they convert the .303 to .22? We occasionally used a .22 rifle, but I've no idea what type it was. And I should point out that I left the cadets way back in '92 so I've no idea what happened after that, plus things may have been a wee bit different here in NI.