The people of Poland

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What Poles today are saying isn't really relevant to the world of T2K.

Leg,

I would think that's being far too simplistic.

At least during the Cold War the Poles were heavily pro-western. Communist propaganda was relative ineffective; 10 million Poles were members of Solidarność, over 25% of the population (and the largest trade union in the world). This doesn't necessarily make them as pro-western in the T2K timeline (and it depends on if you use v2.2, v1 or something in between) but communist propaganda certainly wasn't all that effective when it was around. My point being that the Poles in T2K may well be similar to the ones nowadays because Poles have always gone their own way.

At the least, most Poles should be primarily self-interested. Probably they would be willing to work with Solidarność and the Home Army (the latter is my concept for the professional Polish military forces loyal to the Free Polish government). They would probably be more inclined towards NATO than the PacWar nations, but it shouldn't be taken for granted.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Further research shows that the "free Polish Government" aka Polish Government in exile was essentially a joke after 1946. Virtually nobody even acknowledged it's existence, let alone bothered to talk to them. Whatever western backed Polish "Government" existed couldn't possibly be much more than a puppet, heavily dependant on the whims of NATO to keep itself in even the most basic of shape (and remember that virtually nothing remains of the pre-war governments of any nation).

It doesn't really matter which time line you use, 1.0 or 2.x. Both result in Germany invading Poland for what is essentially a flimsy (at best) excuse to protect a handful of ethnic Germans who had enlisted in the Polish military and refused to obey lawful orders. The only significant difference is the time between German action and that of the rest of Nato.

If, as you say Poles are really only interested in getting everyone else out of their country, why would the Soviets have allowed them virtual free reign over the Baltic coastline? There are effectively no Soviet units anywhere near the vitally important Baltic (if only for it's usefulness to transport bulk supplies). This allows a supposedly unwilling ally to cut off the bulk of the Soviet units in the south of the country from "easy" (if anything can be termed that in 2000) resupply (what little there may be, or hope to be) from "home". Yes, supplies could be hauled from the Ukraine region across land, but only slowly and at great risk from the marauders infesting the area.

Poles today, or even ten years ago, are in my opinion, different to those inhabiting the wasteland of T2K. T2K Poles haven't seen the fall of communism, and the lifting of the repressive boot. Yes there were protests and Solidarność, but in T2K these almost certainly were crushed, or their energies redirected by communist infiltrators (who probably existed IRL but weren't as effective as I'm assuming they were in T2K).

I believe the most telling point though is No.5 of the first post in this thread. NATO destroyed Poland in a desperate attempt to slow the advancing Soviet "liberators". The Soviets, Czechs and possibly a handful of other nations forced NATO out and could be seen as saviours by the populace, particularly those in the east of the country who were under NATO control only briefly.

Now there's absolutely nothing to say there can't be individuals or small groups supporting the west either overtly or covertly, but bulk of the evidence I can find clearly indicates the majority are anti-NATO in outlook. They might not like the Soviets, but they're still probably glad they're there and superficially at least on their side.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It doesn't really matter which time line you use, 1.0 or 2.x. Both result in Germany invading Poland for what is essentially a flimsy (at best) excuse to protect a handful of ethnic Germans who had enlisted in the Polish military and refused to obey lawful orders. The only significant difference is the time between German action and that of the rest of Nato.

I could be mistaken here (in which case feel free to correct me!) but I think there is a difference between the two time lines - as best as I can recall the ethnic Germans refusing to obey orders refers to V2.x only and doesn't feature at all in V1. I'm at work so don't have any books in front of me, but going from memory wasn't the V1 invasion of Poland a combined NATO operation from the outset (or at least those nations still in NATO)?

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Further research shows that the "free Polish Government" aka Polish Government in exile was essentially a joke after 1946.

Leg,

You are confusing the old Free Polish Government with the one set up in T2K. Different organisations, the first is irrelevant.

Doing some reading, the Soviets didn't particularly trust the Poles. They especially didn't trust the airborne division in a political sense, although they were quite willing to use them to attack NATO. Attacking the Baltic coast was basically a suicide mission, the Poles knew it and admitted it among themselves.

Really, no Soviet ally was allowed free reign in any meaningful sense. That seems like a complete misunderstanding of how the Soviets ran their show (or had the PacWar run its show) unless I'm not following your point. Simply put, there was no real trust there.

The Poles in T2K are directly descended from their real-world versions, therefore should will share many of their characteristics. The biggest mark against NATO would be the destruction of Poland in 1997, but until then the Poles would at least be able to thank them for kicking out the Soviets before then. While we can debate what happened to Solidarność in the mean time, its still around by 2000 and likely still supported by the CIA (I see the DIA backing a reconstituted Home Army).

That gratitude shouldn't be taken for granted, but it's probably not going to be blind hatred in most cases (some, yes).

Tony

[headquarters]

Imho - and h being for humble :

The Poles would get into a civil war. There was massive popular support for the pro democratic and by assosciation western aligned factions from the late 1970s. A huge chunk of the Poles were actually quite anti Russian in the sense that they wanted them out and their Polish puppets deposed.Solidarinocz was a popular movement that in true revolutionary fashion managed to outwit,outlast and and then oust the secret police of an oppressive regime. Imhumbleo this would be the dominant factor if a NATO invasion supported it and did not alienate it through say bombarding or nuking Polish cities etc.

On the other hand, a fair share of Poles were card holding party members or inclined to lean that way. They would be in a hard place if the system they had invested their lives and themselves in was to be dissolved. The USSSR gave aid and had a finger in every pie about Polish reconstruction post WWII.
I believe it safe to say that this would be serious contender.

A Nato invasion of Poland in the T2K timeline would mean that these factions probably would come to blows and become belingerents of the Bloc or NATO forces.

So a typical grey area answer from me - yes AND no. The Poles would fight NATO. But NATO would be seen as liberators by many too.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Further research shows that the "free Polish Government" aka Polish Government in exile was essentially a joke after 1946. Virtually nobody even acknowledged it's existence, let alone bothered to talk to them. Whatever western backed Polish "Government" existed couldn't possibly be much more than a puppet, heavily dependant on the whims of NATO to keep itself in even the most basic of shape (and remember that virtually nothing remains of the pre-war governments of any nation).

I agree with you that the PFG is merely vestigial, until perhaps NATO needs it for propaganda or administration when they drive the Sovs out of Poland in 1997. Then, I would think they would get funding and support.

If, as you say Poles are really only interested in getting everyone else out of their country, why would the Soviets have allowed them virtual free reign over the Baltic coastline? There are effectively no Soviet units anywhere near the vitally important Baltic (if only for it's usefulness to transport bulk supplies). This allows a supposedly unwilling ally to cut off the bulk of the Soviet units in the south of the country from "easy" (if anything can be termed that in 2000) resupply (what little there may be, or hope to be) from "home". Yes, supplies could be hauled from the Ukraine region across land, but only slowly and at great risk from the marauders infesting the area.

Given NATO's presumed air- and sea- superiority in 1996-1999, I don't see how the WP has any meaningful shipping capacity left in the Baltic in 2000.

IMO, the Western Front put the three Polish armies on its left, because there wasn't much to defend up there, and they have the widest part of the Oder between them and the Germans. Since the last Pact offensive was in the southern part of the front (into east Saxony, late in 1999, I think), the Poles are not the main front. However, we have the specter of both the Polish 8th and 14th MRDs deserting (both in late '99?) to take over Krakow and Upper Silesia. Obviously, some Polish forces were based in the south at that point.

Right now, I'm wondering if the KGB and its Polish affiliate purged the command structure after that, or alerted its commissar-equivalents. Funny, now that I think of it, we see in the modules the KGB and GRU, the ORMO and ZOMO, but the Polish secret police, the UB, IIRC, are non-existent. Wonder what happened to them?

[B.T.]

Leg,

the born Polish, which I talked to in the last years, were between 40 and 50 (At the time, I talked to them!). Although I did not tell them, that I asked them because I play a "strange" (from Polish point of view!) RPG, they all shared the same overall arguments. And all of them had served in the Polish Forces. Granted - nowadays they make their living in Germany, therefore we can assume that they are benevolent to the Germans or the BRD, but I still would say that the majority was more anti-Soviet than anti-Western.

You are right in your argumentation, that the West/NATO did more havoc to Poland. That's why a lot of Polish people will hate people from the West. But I do not see this as the opinion of the vast majority.

The whole situation is quite complicated.

And, Leg, I've meant, what I've written in my signature. I don't want to make someone angry. So, if you think I try to upset you - I don't, trust me!!

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by B.T.

And, Leg, I've meant, what I've written in my signature. I don't want to make someone angry. So, if you think I try to upset you - I don't, trust me!!

BT,

My friend, for all the many faults and defects with regards to Legbreaker's personality (and for all I know, personal hygiene) I don't believe he would ever get upset at well-reasoned polite comments such as yours, even in disagreement. Please be reassured he just likes a good (but friendly) argument.

Legbreaker:

Personally, I just like the idea of some kind of Polish counter-weight to either PacWar or NATO running roughshod (literally, now horses are back) over their country.

Tony

[natehale1971]

It was Timeline 2.x that had Germany invading Poland over ethnic Germans refusing their orders... the entire 'Magnificent Seven' (because there was seven of them) comments during the short stories that illustrated the world setting.

[Legbreaker]

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.
I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering?