The people of Poland

[Legbreaker]

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.
I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering?

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.

I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering?

Leg,

Certainly, it's all in good fun!

It's good to keep in mind in this case there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's all a matter of opinion (even technical matters and facts can be disputed) so nothing will be proved either way.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'm just glad we've got a spirited debate going on. Everyone's opinions and thoughts are equally valid as far as I'm concerned and I'm always open to being proven wrong.
I, and many others may disagree, but if we can't express that disagreement in a civil manner then why are we bothering?

Exactly! (yes.... said in the voice of Chris Lambert's character from the first "Mortal Combat" movie)

I'm a political news junkie, and the biggest thing that irritates me more than anything else, is when they start calling you a racist, bigot and homophobe just because you believe in individual rights over collective rights. I elevate the individual PERSON over the group, because individuals are unique and precious. Groups are composed of... well, groups are just a mass of nameless and faceless blobs. Easily manipulated and exploited for nefarious means as history has shown time and time again.

[helbent4]

Leg,

I should also mention I'm not basing my views about Polish support for the Home Army/Solidarność completely out of thin air. Defections and even material support from the government (in this case, the communist government) or other warlord's troops closely resemble that in other popular struggles, such as the FMLN in El Salvador, Sandinistas in Nicaragua, Viet Minh and Viet Cong in Vietnam, etc. To a degree perhaps westerners are so used to being on the losing side of that equation it seems impossible it could work for us (or at least Polish PCs).

Solidarność enjoyed very wide (almost overwhelming) popularity before the Twilight War, and who's to say an updated version of the Home Army wouldn't enjoy the same respect during the war as it did during WWII? Granted, Solidarność/Home Army are not going to be as well-organised or centrally supported as these other movements, but that would be balanced out by an equally disorganised/despotic opposition. The hypothetical Home Army may not have inspired entire unit defections (other than the Border Guard Brigades), but the Viet Cong/ARVN did not have any former ARVN units as part of its TO&E, either, but could not be judged as ineffective.

Therefore, in the context of a popular struggle, I think it's not out of the question that Polish PCs affiliated with at least Solidarność and possibly some kind of Home Army could expect or at least hope for defections or support from the population. Support for NATO or the Russians, not so much, I agree!

In other words, I don't think Poles (as PCs) should be lumped in with NATO/PacWar with regards to expectations of defection/local support.

Tony

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to agree that GDW's idea that various large groups of the Polish military/people would be pro-NATO is a bit idealistic (and even downright silly in some cases). Some Polish people I've spoken to have found it insulting that it was thought that they would be so pro-Western that they would just 'jump ship' to NATO given any chance to.
I think the Polish peoples loyalties would not be so much NATO or the Soviet Union as much as it would be: -
1. Poland
2. the Catholic church
3. the Communist ideal
4. WarPac/WTO
I think for many of them, NATO and Russia would not even really enter the equation.

The argument for the Communist State.
Under communism, everyone was entitled to free medical care & education and everyone was given an equal chance to advance themselves within reason (there were no blocks to women becoming engineers for example, but they weren't going to be allowed to be fighter pilots although any peasant farm boy/girl could become a high-ranking research doctor or so on).

The flipside of this is that conformity was encouraged and even today, Polish people generally are still quite conservative and conformist (try being a male with long hair even in 2010, you'll be treated like you're a girl by many men both young and old). Polish women were and still are generally expected to get an education, meet their future husband at school/university, work for a few years, get married & have children - and you are expected to stay married for life.

I agree that various individuals and even groups will be pro-NATO, pro-Western, pro-WarPact, pro-isolationist or whatever and so on but one of the primary sources for propaganda seems to be ignored. Poland is Catholic, if the Pope made an appeal to the Polish people to support NATO, there would be people who would do it, even those who ardently supported the communist regime. The power of the church in Poland is typically underestimated in most game treatments.

[Raellus]

Although I am mixing universes here- the alternate u of T2K and our current reality (or is it?)- I think that it's worth noting that, when given the choice, post-Cold War Poland chose to align with the West, forsaking the Russian Federation. That's cutting ties on a 50-year long association to join up with a 50-year rival power bloc. Isn't Poland currently a part of NATO? Yes, they are allied with the Germans and the U.S.- their historical nemesis and their main Cold War adversary respectively. Russia was not pleased at all at Poland's decision but the Poles did it anyway. Although I am not suggesting that Cold War Poland would have welcomed a NATO invasion with open arms, I don't think that they were as pro-communist/pro-Soviet/anti-West as some are suggesting either.

[Legbreaker]

I have grave doubts that the church would direct Poles to side for NATO, afterall, Poland is essentially defending itself from an invading force.
We also have the important fact that the Vatican is slap bang in the middle of Italy - an opponent of NATO and allied to the PACT at least by default. Admittedly the Vatican isn't a part of Italy, but when you're surrounded like that you do have to think about the potential consequences of your words....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I have grave doubts that the church would direct Poles to side for NATO, afterall, Poland is essentially defending itself from an invading force.
We also have the important fact that the Vatican is slap bang in the middle of Italy - an opponent of NATO and allied to the PACT at least by default. Admittedly the Vatican isn't a part of Italy, but when you're surrounded like that you do have to think about the potential consequences of your words....

And I don't disagree with you.
I'm not saying the Pope would tell the Poles to side with NATO, but if NATO were to use the idea of it, it could be the thing that sways some Polish groups to side with NATO (or at least not oppose them).
It needs to be considered that the Pope was Polish and the cult of Pope John Paul II is still strong to this day (they've named streets, parks and so on after him in many towns & cities)