Really bad weapons...

[dragoon500ly]

Here's a bit of insider trivia....

West Point and Virginia Military Institute have a long standing revelry going back to the Civil War.

West Point has more football victories than VMI.

VMI has more graduates that make it to Army Chief of Staff.

Hmmmmm

[pmulcahy11b]

A long-standing revelry? I love those unintentional weird mistakes...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Here's a bit of insider trivia....

West Point and Virginia Military Institute have a long standing revelry going back to the Civil War.

West Point has more football victories than VMI.

VMI has more graduates that make it to Army Chief of Staff.

Hmmmmm

Colin Powell came from City College of New York, where Michio Kaku also teaches and does his studies. Makes you wonder about the quality of people coming from City College of New York -- excellent.

An by the way, Michio Kaku was an infantryman!

[dragoon500ly]

What can I say....my mind works faster than my fingers....

[Legbreaker]

I usually blame the keys. They have a habit of jumping about underneath my fingers!

[dragoon500ly]

It seems that we've been picking on the ground services...time to spank the Navy!!

The USS Vesuvius was a "dynamite cruiser" armed with the awesome battery of three 15-inch pneumatic guns that were aimed by pointing the ship at the target. The guns fired a 980-pound shell of which some 500-pounds are dynamite.

So what made this awsome ship killer such a bad weapon you ask? The maximum effective range of the "air cannon" was less than a 1,000 yards.

[pmulcahy11b]

Wait till I put the 8-Gauge Woinchester Maganum shotgun I just made up on my site -- it's based on the Looney Toons cartoons where Porky Pig was (trying) to hunt Bugs Bunny or the Tasmanian Devil (the fictional one, not a real Tasmanian Devil). Now that's a bad weapon...

BTW, I did just put an update on my site a few days ago -- let me get to the "announcement" on the Site Update thread...

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

It seems that we've been picking on the ground services...time to spank the Navy!!

The USS Vesuvius was a "dynamite cruiser" armed with the awesome battery of three 15-inch pneumatic guns that were aimed by pointing the ship at the target. The guns fired a 980-pound shell of which some 500-pounds are dynamite.

So what made this awsome ship killer such a bad weapon you ask? The maximum effective range of the "air cannon" was less than a 1,000 yards.

I realize this is a 4+ year necro, but the maximum range of the Zalinsky pneumatic dynamite guns was one and a half nautical miles, not "less than a thousand yards". Where it failed as a naval weapon was that it was a fixed mount (and thus nearly useless in ship-to-ship combat), and the ship could only carry a total of 30 rounds (10 for each gun). It ended up being of limited use for shore bombardment off Cuba, because it was almost silent when firing, so targets had no warning to get under cover. Interestingly, the USS Holland (SS-1) had an 8.4" dynamite gun in its nose for "aerial torpedoes," although I haven't seen anything on whether it was ever actually fired.

Roosevelt's Rough Riders also had a pneumatic gun, the half-ton 2.5" Sims-Dudley, which was the gun that had a maximum range of less than a thousand yards (it could only reach 900 yards on a good day). However, it really was a dud. It required a high arc of fire to even achieve that range (Roosevelt refers to it being used "like a mortar"), and the fin-stabilized shell was prone to being blown off-course. It suffered technical problems every few shots that could require a couple of hours to repair, and it only had a high explosive shell that weighed 10 pounds, contained 5 pounds of nitro-gelatin, and would not detonate until ~6-7 seconds after impact. The muzzle velocity was only 600 feet per second, so that 900 yard shot took almost 5 seconds for the projectile to reach the target. Roosevelt thought it out-performed regular artillery, but mostly because it used smokeless powder to generate the pneumatic pressure, and thus did not attract counter-battery fire.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think most people here have no problem with thread-necro if it's to add or correct something.
The info you provided was quite interesting.
I'm left with the impression that although pneumatic guns were not uncommon from 1880 till 1900, there isn't enough information about them.
So then we get the confusion about their capabilities such as the notion that the Vesuvius' guns were limited to only 1000 yards when, as you mentioned, they actually were capable of ranges out to 1760 yards with a 250kg (550lb) projectile and ranges out to 4000 yards with a 100kg (200lb) projectile.

[dragoon500ly]

When I first posted the pneumatic gun, the only source material I could find mentioned a maximum range of a thousand yards, glad to see more info is out there! But please, what is the source?

[Vespers War]

Necroing the thread again to come back to dynamite guns, I think I finally found enough information to stat out three dynamite guns, using the DP for dynamite (even though they used various early high explosives, it should be close enough) and the Demolitions rules from page 221 of v2.2 to convert to concussion damage. Their shells are generally too light for effective shrapnel, but if fired into something that could produce appropriate fragments (brick walls, etc), they follow the rules from Demolitions for that (primary burst equal to HE concussion radius, secondary burst double HE concussion radius).


The SS-1 Holland, the first submarine commissioned by the Navy, had either 1 or 2 (sources vary, but I suspect 1 is correct) dynamite guns of roughly 8" caliber. The ship carried seven rounds for the gun (referred to as "aerial torpedoes"), along with three Whitehead torpedoes that fired from a tube under the gun. A June 1897 article from The Princeton Union states her projectiles were 180 pounds with 100 pounds of high explosive as the payload. This would be C:50 and Pen 25C in T2K terms, with a range of approximately 1 mile. As a compromise between the 0 add for a set explosive and the 2d6 of a standard shell, I'd add 1d6 to Pen for the lighter dynamite shell.

The 2.5" Dudley-Sims would be roughly C:11 and Pen 6C with its 5-pound charge, and I'd either add 1/2d6 (1d3) if I wanted a variable Pen or just stick with the constant given that it's a low-velocity semi-mortar. The semi-accurate range is 900 yards. For a 1000 pound 1890s artillery piece, it's decent. With each shell weighing only ten pounds and a half-pound smokeless powder charge as propellant, ammo transportation shouldn't be too difficult.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I think most people here have no problem with thread-necro if it's to add or correct something.
The info you provided was quite interesting.
I'm left with the impression that although pneumatic guns were not uncommon from 1880 till 1900, there isn't enough information about them.
So then we get the confusion about their capabilities such as the notion that the Vesuvius' guns were limited to only 1000 yards when, as you mentioned, they actually were capable of ranges out to 1760 yards with a 250kg (550lb) projectile and ranges out to 4000 yards with a 100kg (200lb) projectile.

The weights provided (on a lot of websites that seem to be copying from someone that misinterpreted data) are the amount of explosive in the shells. The 1,760 yard range was with a 980 or 1,150 pound shell (different sources provide different weights), of which 550 pounds was explosive, or C:117 and Pen 59C. The lighter shell with 200 pounds of explosive and a 4,000 yard range would be C:71, Pen 35C. Vesuvius only carried a total of 30 shells, 10 for each gun.

[dragoon500ly]

Picked up a Copy of World at War #24 and saw this article.....

The Unluckiest Ship: The USS Willian D. Porter, DD-597---by Mark Day.

The USS William D. Porter, was a brand Fletcher-class destroyer commissioned on 6 July 1943. Her first commanding officer was LCDR Wilfred A. Walter. After her trails and shakedown cruise she reported to Norfolk VA for her first mission. On 12 November she left Norfolk as escort for the new battleship Iowa, onboard Iowa was President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Ernest J. King as well as many other top brass enroute for conferences in Cairo and Teheran.

While departing Norfolk, Porter's anchor fouled on a sister ship and tore off her railings and lifeboat mountings. This in itself was enough to cause the relief of a ship's captain, but the problems, they were only beginning!

The next day, a depth charge fell overboard, exploding and causing the Iowa and other ships to take evasive action, believing a German submarine was attacking. Next, a real tradegy struck when a man was washed overboard by a freak wave and died. Next, one of the ship's boilers lost power.

The next day, President Franklin requested to see the task force conduct an anti-aircraft drill. Target balloons were released and most were quickly destroyed by the Iowa's gunners. Several drifted toward the Porter, which shot them down.

Then the Porter and other escorting destroyers were ordered to perfrom a simulated torpedo attack against the battleship. During that exercise, the Porter accidentally launched a live torpedo towards the Iowa. According to eyewitness reports, the torpedo officer ordered the simulated firing and commanded "Fire One!" "Fire Two!" and finally "Fire Three!" There was no "Fire Four!", but the sequence was continued by the unmistable sound of a fourth (armed) torpedo launch). Panic instantly reigned on the bridge. Lt H. Lewis, who witnessed the entire even, asked the captain "Did you give permission to fire a torpedo?"

Captain Walter's stammered answer was "HELL NO, I, I, I---ahhh, I---WHAT!?"

The Porter them attempted to warn the Iowa, but the task force was operating under radio silence, the warning message was sent by blinker light. The first message told of the torpedo heading towards the battleship, but gave the wrong bearing. The next message confusingly signaled only that Porter had gone into reverse at full speed.

Finally, the destroyer broke radio silence to warn the flagship, only to be ordered by Iowa's radioman to identify themselves.. Finally, the crucial message was received in time and the Iowa was able to turn aside to avoid the torpedo.

When President Roosevelt was told of the approaching torpedo, he ordered his Secret Service bodyguard to move his wheelchair to the railing so that he could watch. His bodygaurds then drew their psitols, ready to shoot the torpedo as it approached. Porter's torpedo finally exploded some 3,000 yards astern, in Iowa's wake.

The Iowa then trained every gun that could be brought to bear on the Porter, as it was feared that the Porter was part of an assassination plot. When the battleship radioed for an explanation for the live torpedo, all CPT Walter replied with was a meek "We did it."

For the first and only time in US Navy history, an entire ship's company was arreasted. Porter was sent to Bermuda, when she docked, she was surrounded by armed Marines. Ship and crew were held there for several days while a closed-session Naval Court of Inquiry examined the case.

LCDR Walter's career was effectively over. He was reassigned to a shore billet, well inland as were most of his officers. For teh Rest of her career, the Porter was greeted with the sardonic message "DON'T SHOOT! WE'RE REPUBLICANS!" whenever she approached other ships.

Torpedoman L. Dawson eventually confessed to having accidently left a promer in the Number Three Torpedo Tube, causing the accidental launch. He threw the primer case overboard to try to conceal his mistake, but finally admitted what happened. He was sentenced to 14 years at hard labor, but President Roosevelt ordered his release.

The Porter was sent to the Aleutian islands off Alaska. Where she accidentally fired a 5-inch shell into the front yard of the base commandant. The unlucky destroyer was next ordered to the dangerous waters off Okinawa, where kamizaes were weaking ahvoc with the US fleet. There she partly redeemed herself by shooting down several attacking planes, but only partly, as she was also accused of shooting down three American planes with friendly fire.

Her bad luck continued when she accidentally fired on a sister ship, USS Luce DD-522, riddling her side and superstructure.

On 10 June 1945, Porter's luck finally ran out. But even her sinking was bizarre. At 0815, a Japanese bomber dove out of the clouds, without warning; and headed straight for the ship. The Porter was able to evade the diving plan, but the bomber crashed into the sea nearby, passing underneath the ship and exploding, breaking her back.

With her steam lines ruptured, power was lost and fires broke out. The crew fought to save their ship for over three hours, but their efforts were in vain. The order was given to abandon ship and twelve minutes later, the Porter rolled to starboard and sank by the crew. Miraculously, none of her crew was lost. Perhaps in that regard, she could at least be said to have finally found some good luck, even while sinking.

[Webstral]

Poor CO. I've had periods off time that felt like that. Mishaps come in bunches.

[Adm.Lee]

That's even worse luck than the battleship South Dakota, she too had a reputation as a "hoodoo ship" in the Pacific War.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

If we're going to talk about terrible general purpose weapons, how about the M85. More complicated than the M2HB, and despite being the same caliber it had an entirely different link feed system, rendering cross-feeding M2 ammo into it or it's into an M2 impossible.

[dragoon500ly]

The Heinkel He 162 was designed to be a simple, inexpensive fighter suitable for quantity production from readily-available materials by semi-skilled and unskilled labor. It was to have simple controls to allow new pilots to easily fly it. It was conceived, designed, built and flown within 90 days!

It had a metal fuselage with a plywood nose cap, its wing was primarily of wood with plywood skin and detachable metal tips. Tailplanes, elevators, and rudders were of metal construction, but the fins were made of wood. The MBW 003 turbojet was attached directly over the top of the fuselage. The cocpit was fitted in front of the jet inlet and was provided with a jettison able canopy as well as a simple ejector seat. The fighter was intended to have an active service life of some 5-10 hours of combat flying.

Armament consisted of two 20mm cannons provided with 120 rounds per gun. At maximum thrust the He 162 had a maximum speed of 562mph at 19,690ft. Range was limited to about 300 miles and the service ceiling was 39,400ft.

One its first test flight, an undercarriage door broke away. On its second flight, before a large gathering of Luftwaffe and Party officials, the starboard wing leading edge ripped away during a low level, high speed run, causing the plan to start rolling and crashing.

During its short service life, no Allied pilot ever engaged a He 162, although some 170 were officially delivered to the Luftwaffe, with a further 100 more waiting on flight testing and another 800 in advanced stages of assembly at various plants.

Flight tests by the RAF after the war confirmed that the He 162 was no plane for a novice pilot, being unstable around its longitudinal axis as a result of its top mounted engine. It was an unforgiving machine that required careful handling by its pilots., in the words of one test pilot “no sudden or erratic movements and no tight maneuvers!” If experienced test pilots had problems with controlling this fighter, attempts by 16-year old pilots with only cursory gliding experience, would have been little short of suicidal.

Source is “Warplanes of the Third Reich”

[Webstral]

I've read some modestly favorable reviews for the Volksjaeger. It's an interesting idea. Of course, it takes a lot more than on-paper promise to get a combat worthy weapon into action. Still, if used as an interceptor, the Volksjaeger had potential. With a high top speed and a good offensive punch, the Volksjaeger might have been able to get around its other limitations. Short range doesn't matter so much for an interceptor. Radical maneuvers might not have been necessary if the fighter operated in a hit-and-run mode against Allied bombers. If the Volksjaeger had an average sortie length of 1 hour (just to pick a round figure) and killed an Allied bomber every other sortie, then a 5-10 hour combat life would yield 2.5 to 5 kills. Obviously, it's nothing like this simple. Still, it would have been interesting to see what might have come of getting the new plane into service in mid-1944.

[dragoon500ly]

I've seen the same reviews but that these were written by test pilots, not the intended 16 year that were supposed to climb into the "People's Fighter" and do their bit for the Fatherland. And almost all of these reviews do agree that the, with its known fighters, the 162 would have taken a high toll...of its pilots.

[HorseSoldier]

I'm guessing the 5-10 hour lifespan was due to the jet engines of the era primarily.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

I've seen the same reviews but that these were written by test pilots, not the intended 16 year that were supposed to climb into the "People's Fighter" and do their bit for the Fatherland. And almost all of these reviews do agree that the, with its known fighters, the 162 would have taken a high toll...of its pilots.

There's no way around pilot quality. The Big Week was so hard on the Luftwaffe because they lost 400 pilots. The airframes could be replaced. Aircraft production increased virtually to the end of the war. Without fuel, though, the new pilots couldn't get into the air to learn their new profession. Hitting fuel production was a shrewd move on the part of the Allies. The Komet, with its unique fuel requirements and stupendous performance, might have accomplished something significant if they had overcome the hazards of using said fuel and had been able to get a significant number of them operational.