Germany in T2K

[cro]

I agree with horsesoldier.
I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.
In the mid-90ies the Bundeswehr disbanded there tank-destroyer coys (Jaguar), because the weopon-system TOW was not better than the 120mm smoothbore.
The 120mm and its fire control system outclasses the TOW. And one round of 120mm is cheaper than a TOW missile.
Statistics say that every 1,4th shot is a first hit. So, every shot is a hit. Nice.

In my timeline we have a lot of 2A4 and a few 2A5s.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cro

I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.

They're working on a Leopard 2A7, though I've seen few details as of yet. It seems to be a sort of "electric tank" version, like the M1A2 SEP.

The Leopard 2-140 exists only on the drawing board, and in one Photoshopped picture put out by Rheinmetall.

The "Leopard 3" also existed only on the drawing board, but the Leopard 2 with the casemated turret didn't look like the T2K Leopard 3. It looked more like a Leopard 2 with a large, flat turret that sort of looks like a squashed M1 turret.

[Panther Al]

The swiss mounted a 140 in one of their leo's, and while I have a pic of it floating about, I can't vouch too hard on if its not photoshopped, as the tube looks long as all hell and it appears to have a pepperpot muzzle break of some sort on it.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know for the NATO it seems the 120 mm did a fine job. Much like I am sure the Soviet 125mm probably would of done just as effective job too.

[natehale1971]

Sorry about not commenting earlier... but i've been so busy trying to get the layouts and new artwork drawn for the work i've been doing on The Morrow Project core rule book 4th Edition that i've not really had the time to keep up on the forums..

So please forgive me guys. But Germany in T2k has always been something that I've had fun playing around with (be it as having several of my characters being East or West German soldiers working with the Americans, or the campaign we played as East German soldiers who had been on the Far Eastern Front when the Coupe happened back home).

But there is one thing that I really felt needed to be changed about the first edition of the game...

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

The DDR DNVA maintained its definitely Soviet style names and military organization during the war, it did slowly start to adopt BRD DBW designed and for the most part built weapons as the war progressed as their stockpiles of Soviet built and developed weapons were expended.
But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I can't find anything on heavy weapon production for the DDR, if anyone knows anything... please contact me so i can get that so i can work that into my DDR and BRD country articles that I've been writing.

I have created a detailed DDR DNVA OOB that showed a fictional reorganization of the DNVA that happens during the early-1990s that would have happened during the same period of the Soviet Reorganization using the lessons they had learned watching how well the US forces did fighting against Iraq during Desert Storm. One of the biggest changes was the renumbering of divisions and regiments, and the addition of Guards units (the most elite and premier units composed of the most politically loyal troops).

In the articles I've been working on for the two German states. I've included descriptions of military orders & decorations and the like for some flavor text to expound upon the two different cultural identities, and of course the ways that the two where more alike than not... such as both states having instituted the Order of the Iron Cross during wartime, and their own versions of the Honor Cross.

But the DDR instituting the Order of the Red Eagle as one of their highest awards, and the BDR instituting the Order of the Black Eagle as their highest award!

I've been debating on drawing pictures of the uniforms, and digging up pictures of the types of camo patterns and the like to add to the articles.

So, when I get a chance to post my articles I'll start a new thread for each one, so i can get advice on improving them individually.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The G36 would never have been developed, it's a product of the end of the Cold War when Heckler & Koch were able to share information/techniques/designs with Royal Ordnance when RO bought HK. It uses design influences from the AR-18, influences which only came about due to HK's association with RO.
Without that specific event happening, the G36 would never have been thought of let alone developed and HK would have probably pushed for making the G41 it's main 5.56mm rifle.

[HorseSoldier]

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

To each their own and all, but I personally have always found the way the Twilight War kicked off to be one of the cooler aspects of the Twilight War setting, since it makes for a much more gray and murky setting, morally speaking. Not just in terms of Germany reunification by force being murky in and of itself, but that most of NATO jumps on board a NATO initiated war against the Soviets and rest of the Warsaw Pact. Soviet propaganda will have a pretty big kernel of truth in it that it's fighting a defensive war, and the specter of German militarism, however much it's not a one for one stand in for 1939, does a lot to explain how and why the Poles and Czechoslovaks stay on board on the Soviet side of things.

But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

There's not going to be time to replace the NVA's small arms inventory before the nukes fly, not with the war going full tilt. I'd expect that all small arms factories on both sides of the former border are going triple shift turning out G41s, G11s, and MPiK-74s. Best case scenario would be a crash program to convert the 74s to 5.56mm, which would be a pretty easy conversion. (And even with that, I could still see the reunified Germans bringing in boatloads of M16s and C7s from the US and Canada to at least get a standardized caliber on the books.)

But, end of the day, the reunified Germany is just handed a logistical nightmare. I think they're more interesting playing that ball where it lies, too, rather than giving them a mulligan

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I agree with the other post that G36 just never exists -- HK had no experience with, or apparently interest in, the AR-18 they borrowed heavily from on the G36 before they did the L85 upgrade for the UK, which gets into counterfactual stuff for the Twilight War timeline.

The other thing is that disruption of petroleum production and worldwide commerce will be a show stopper for production of something like the G36. Germany could be building MPiK-74s even circa 2000, with the only thing that would need serious modification being the substitution of wood for plastic furniture.

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly, I can see in v1 that the G11 production would soon be halted so as to produce more G41s to standardize rounds for the Germans and her NATO allies.

Also the former East German units will continue with their former Pact weapon and limited production would continue on to support these units.

Honestly one of the major problems with the entire war is that the Pact went against their tradition of taking weaken units and merging them. Or the fact that NATO units would have attachments and detachments to help each other. Granted during late 1998 and into the winter 1999-2000 as many units would of tried to be returned to their parent when possible, but there would still be several of them where moving the sub-units would of been more costly than leaving them with whatever unit they had ended up with. Even during the 2000 Offensive within the 3rd German Army there would of been several cross-attachments with each of the Corps and even III German Corps and IX US Corps may have done some of this between them for the current offensive.

[Legbreaker]

Why? The G11 in the V1 timeline was the main service rifle for the West Germans. The G41 was the supporting services rifle. Both production lines would have been in place and operating concurrently.

Standardisation was clearly NOT a priority for the Germans otherwise they wouldn't have even begun to consider the G11 and it's caseless ammo. Given that it was set to enter service in 1990-91, the Germans would have had 4-5 years to build up a war stockpile of ammo, plus whatever else they produced once production was ramped up in advance of hostilities. Until the production facilities were destroyed, probably by nukes in late 97 (although likely attacked conventionally numerous times prior to that), there seems little need for the Germans, with their separate logistical train to the US, British, etc, to conform.

Also, the G11 was developed because a soldier could carry more than twice the ammo as an M16 armed man for the same weight, had better accuracy, and was much more controllable - why throw that all away for the ability to share magazines with soldiers who are operating in a completely different area?

I agree that the East Germans would continue to use their pre-unification equipment (although perhaps with new uniforms and vehicle markings) - there's little doubt that the west would be totally unable to re-equip them all in just a few weeks or months (depending on the version timeline).

Granted it may not have been Pact doctrine to not combine depleted units, but that's the situation we're faced with in the game. To me it's quite simple to explain it - the units were in constant action in the beginning, under pressure all the time. The opportunity simply wasn't there to withdraw units form the line and reorganise them in any significant way. Later in the war, the logistical ability to shift large numbers of troops and equipment around had disappeared.

[Targan]

I agree with pretty much all of Leg's points above. In my campaigns G11s have been available for characters without too much trouble but ammo was very scarce.