In Defense of the Red Army

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*

[Adm.Lee]

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

He did have the interesting tidbit that the Soviet military intelligence chief in June 1941 was *not* shot, like his predecessors. The chief's defense was to present some bits of evidence to Stalin.
1) Soviet agents were shadowing German encampments, digging up their trash piles. The rifle-cleaning cloths only had summer-weight oil on them.
2) Soviet agents were monitoring the price of mutton. If the price fell, that would mean that the Germans were slaughtering sheep to make sheepskin coats for winter fighting.
3) His men were buying German-made stoves, and analyzing the heating fuel within. If winter fuel was being held off the market, it would show up in the civilian economy.
Since none of these things indicated the Germans were going to attack in June 1941, he got to keep his neck, and Stalin got to work on planning for a winter attack.

I have no idea if all of the above is true, but it makes an interesting case for how to perform long-term intelligence gathering.

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

That's a VERY interesting case indeed. I knew Sururov had written on the subject but I haven't read the book and didn't know those details.

With that said, I did just finish Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and it seems that Hitler tipped his hand a bit with the invasion of Yugoslavia and the (costly) delay in Barbarossa it caused; if they (the Soviets) were going to get the jump on 'em, why not then when the Nazis' pants were around their ankles as they pissed on the Balkans?

I'm not doubting you (or Sururov) just adding more speculation to an already interesting scenario!

[HorseSoldier]

Did anyone read Viktor Suvorov's "Icebreaker"? It was his attempt to claim that the Soviets were getting ready to jump the Nazis in July 1941, but they got pre-empted by Barbarossa.

I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.

Perhaps Stalin felt that it was better to hold the strategic initiative, regardless of what was going on with the Red Army. It certainly would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Hitler had concluded that the adventure in the Balkans imposed such a delay on BARBAROSSA as to put completion out of the question in 1941, leaving the Soviets free to invade Eastern Europe during the winter. Oh my, the possibilities...!


Webstral

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Perhaps Stalin felt that it was better to hold the strategic initiative, regardless of what was going on with the Red Army. It certainly would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Hitler had concluded that the adventure in the Balkans imposed such a delay on BARBAROSSA as to put completion out of the question in 1941, leaving the Soviets free to invade Eastern Europe during the winter. Oh my, the possibilities...!


Webstral

Twilight:1942 anyone?

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I haven't read it, but that's interesting. I can believe the Soviets were thinking about it, at least to some extent. I don't think they were being overly realistic in their thinking, if they were, given how poorly Soviet forces performed in the Winter War and on the defense in the early days of Barbarossa.

Read some the reviews of the book and some of the more than interesting points of views from the airchair "experts" and from within Russia. The most telling thing is the sources from with Russia exclaim to article there was no way Stalin would go back on his word of the Pact between Berlin and Moscow at the time. Most of the "experts" were split.

One of the telling things that strike me as odd, is that at the same time while the German were building up their forces forward, the Soviets were at the same time building up their forces in forward areas. As has been pointed out time and again, it was Stalin purges that had direct linked to why when the Soviets did attack say Finland, Poland, and then attack by the Germans later why they were successful. Yeah I know they were comparatively successful in Poland, but they were already heavily engage against the Germans.

Yet, due to Soviet/Russia military doctrine, one of the problem has always been where units readiness has always been over stated. At the time Soviets were actively also training their units in the fields and the Soviet High Command were evaluating the performance of units down to Regimental level. The one thing they were starting to realize how crippling the system of having their Commander having to strapped with a counterparts from the Party who would have to countersign their orders too. Also the fact the State Secret Police, (depending on time frame with it initials) also had spies at all levels with in all units.

The one intriguing thing is that Soviets could of caught the Germans with their pants down during the time with their conquest of Yugoslavia and other regions of the Balkans. Reality was the Soviets would have done little more than cross the starting lines when everything would of failed because Regimental, Divisional, Corps, and Army Commanders would of been left paralysis due to the system that Lenin and Stalin had impose onto the Red Army.

It was only after many of the Party Officers had been removed an active part of the chain command and many of them given their commands (that another story) that the Soviet military seem to get it act together. Of course, at this time they were forming new units with new weapons and lend-lease equipment were trickling in too.

Just some thoughts.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

BTW, if you play large East Front WW2 wargames like me, try experimenting with a Soviet offensive instead of a German one in 1941. It's a lot of fun.

I've done this twice and its an intresting donnybrook all over Poland...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah well the slow down during that sandstorm in 2003 wasn't due to because the supply of Kool Menthol 100s had dropped too low.

They were using batteries faster at much faster rate with almost everyone having NVGs, all the radios. Yet, I am sure if any of the troop with minimags and walkman sure packed enough for their use during the 3 week journey....*shrug*

Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Knowing some of the characters I served with, the shortage of Kools played a larger role than the shortage of batteries! Now if the coffee had run out!!!!!

*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

*hehs*

Yeah, no coffee is a true emergency that requires immediate action.

When we went over, I knew coffee was going to be scarce - especially good coffee. So, locked up in a box, set aside for a month, was a nice krupp expresso machine, and 10 pounds of really really good coffee. The *looks* I got when I had my morning cups - once the month was past and all anyone else had was MRE coffee - was always amusing.. surprised I didn't get shot though.

Yeah the military runs on coffee...and none of that decaf stuff...

[Abbott Shaull]

You know by 2003 they had determined that smoking was bad for one's health...lol

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

You know by 2003 they had determined that smoking was bad for one's health...lol

That's because the Surgeon General never ran into a gen-u-wine Lifer!!!! Food is optional, coffee and cigs are not!

There was seen that was cut out of the movie "We were Soldiers" that had the Sergeant Major walking to headquarters with two canteen cups of coffee...I cant count the number of times that I have seen that same sequence of NCOs reporting to work with a canteen cup or two of ole mess hall lifer juice!

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

That's because the Surgeon General never ran into a gen-u-wine Lifer!!!! Food is optional, coffee and cigs are not!

There was seen that was cut out of the movie "We were Soldiers" that had the Sergeant Major walking to headquarters with two canteen cups of coffee...I cant count the number of times that I have seen that same sequence of NCOs reporting to work with a canteen cup or two of ole mess hall lifer juice!

Yeah, but what brand did the mess hall used...lol