British Air Power in T2K

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Yeah, I'd stick a couple of squadrons of Jaguars and some Harriers in there just to start.

For my own game, went with a squadron each of Tornado, Jaguar and Harrier and since most of the MEFF is light infantry, added a mixed Gazelle/Lynx squadron for scouting/antitank, as well as a dozen or so Pumas and Chinooks for troop lift.

[Rainbow Six]

Interesting and thorough piece...well done...would be interested in seeing your take on things in 2000 when it’s done.

Just a couple of questions / comments...

1. Eurofighter. I appreciate there are a great many “what ifs” involved in conversations such as these, especially in a V1 timeline, however as far as I know IRL Eurofighters did not enter service until well into the 21st Century, so even with a continuing Cold war, I’m simply not sure how feasible it would be for any to be in general service circa 1996 / 1997? (Admittedly I do like the idea of the small number of test aircraft being rushed into service at some point).

2. F16’s in British service. I’ve seen this mentioned on the etranger site before. Interesting idea, particularly in a V1 timeline where there’s a need for something to replace the Phantom until such times as Eurofighter enters service. My only question here would be whether the US would be able to provide forty eight Falcons in 1996 when the Sino Soviet War is already in full swing and the USAF is presumably already mindful of its own possible needs in the event of a War. Perhaps a Falcon purchase would have been more likely earlier in the decade?

Also, for what it’s worth, I also think there would be an RAF presence in the Middle East. Jaguars for sure and most likely a fighter Squadron and a C130 detachment as well. I’m not sure about Harriers though...whilst I absolutely agree they’re a logical choice I think it depends on numbers....does the RAF of 1996 have enough to send some to the Gulf, or does the MEFF have to rely on the US for CAS?

[perardua]

Also, why call the Eurofighter a Spitfire rather than Typhoon (i.e. it's actual name)?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by perardua

Also, why call the Eurofighter a Spitfire rather than Typhoon (i.e. it's actual name)?

Because the Eurofighter was only named the Typhoon on the 2nd September 1998 at a naming ceremony at Farnborough. The name Typhoon was actualy resisted by Germany because of the RAF Hawker Typhoon fighter-bomber of WW2 which chewed up the German army in Western Europe and North Africa, but Britain, Italy and Spain were in favour of it. Before that the British had pushed for the name Spitfire II which the Luftwaffe for obvious reasons wasn't to happy with either.

In T2K Italy joins the Commy block, and Spain who I'm not to sure who's side it was on, pulled out of the Eurofighter as well, leaving Britain and Germany to develop it. The British named their Eurofighters the Spitfire, while the Germans probably named their ones something more agreable to them.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

F16’s in British service. I’ve seen this mentioned on the etranger site before. Interesting idea, particularly in a V1 timeline where there’s a need for something to replace the Phantom until such times as Eurofighter enters service. My only question here would be whether the US would be able to provide forty eight Falcons in 1996 when the Sino Soviet War is already in full swing and the USAF is presumably already mindful of its own possible needs in the event of a War. Perhaps a Falcon purchase would have been more likely earlier in the decade?

Based on the stocks available, I really don't think that the US would be able to furnish another wing for foreign military sales. If the production line ran 3-shifts, 24/7 it might be possible, but modern military aircraft, are just not as suitable for mass production as a P-51 was, you would also have the USAF bring sqns up to war strength as well as trying to modernize the Air National Guard.

Also, for what it’s worth, I also think there would be an RAF presence in the Middle East. Jaguars for sure and most likely a fighter Squadron and a C130 detachment as well. I’m not sure about Harriers though...whilst I absolutely agree they’re a logical choice I think it depends on numbers....does the RAF of 1996 have enough to send some to the Gulf, or does the MEFF have to rely on the US for CAS?

RAF should be able to detach a squadron or two, or take a page from PG1 and send detachments from several different squadrons to make up the 1-2. Perhaps 3-4 Hercules as well as 20-30 helicopters, maybe?

[Rainbow Six]

I believe there were 28 F16's intended for the Pakistani Air Force that were never delivered because of an embargo (the Pressler Amendment?) and ended up going from the factory at Fort Worth straight to storage at Davis Monthan AFB sometime in the early 90's?

Perhaps an arrangement was reached for the RAF to get those planes?

Just a thought...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I believe there were 28 F16's intended for the Pakistani Air Force that were never delivered because of an embargo (the Pressler Amendment?) and ended up going from the factory at Fort Worth straight to storage at Davis Monthan AFB sometime in the early 90's?

Perhaps an arrangement was reached for the RAF to get those planes?

Just a thought...

Anything is possible, but ac at the storage site tend to be stripped for parts or are pulled to replace operational/training losses. ANybody know how many are still left?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what I can gather, the F-16s ordered for Pakistan where not completely stripped back. At one point they were offered to New Zealand to replace the RNZAF's A4 Skyhawks and it was claimed that only a modest amount of work was needed to make them operational.
The deal was said to be particularly favourable towards New Zealand but the Helen Clark lead government decided that New Zealand didn't need fighter or attack aircraft and so the deal was dropped. New Zealand's loss.

[Rainbow Six]

There's a bit of detail about the embargoed Pakistani F16's here.

http://www.f16falcon.com/facts/f16_17.html

In summary, it appears that they initially ordered 71. Twenty eight were built and placed in storage, whilst the remainder were never built. As best as I can tell the planes that went in to in storage remained fully intact and operational whilst diplomatic wrangling went on over whether they would be a) delivered to the PAF as ordered or b) the Pakistanis got their money back.

Circa 1995 it was proposed that they be sold to other countries, with the proceeds going to the Pakistanis. Initial suggestions were Taiwan (17 aircraft) and the Phillipines (11 aircraft), however that fell through as did a proposed deal with New Zealand and IRL the planes were still in Arizona as of sometime in 2001 (I don't know what state they're in now).

I think it is, therefore, possible that the PAF F16's might have found their way into Royal Air Force service in a T2K World. One possible stumbling block might be that it appears they were relatively older models (A/B's) so not state of the art, however the RAF might have decided that older model F16's were a better option than aging Phantom FGR2's. Personally, I'm quite sold on the idea...

(And I'm sure if the RAF didn't take them, then someone would have done in the months leading up to the Twilight War - perhaps New Zealand as originally planned).

[RN7]

F-16C/D Block 40/42/50/52 production was...

F-16C/D Block 40/42
472: USA (1988-1992)
138: Egypt (1991-2002)
117: Turkey (1990-1995)
060: Israel (1991-1993)
022: Bahrain (1990-2000)
F-16C/D Block 50/52
264: USA (1991-2004)
140: South Korea (1994-2004)
070: Turkey (1996-1999)
064: Greece (1997-1998)
062. Singapore (1998-2002)

Production is on going to the USAF and export customers before and during the T2K period, at least up until the end of 1997. In 1996 its clear that a big war is looming, and the US government is going to have to decide who takes precedence in war production.

We can rule out Singapore as it didn't get F-16s till 1998, while the Greeks went commy and probably would have only recieved a dozen at most. The USAF and Israel are going to get what they want, but is the US going to keep delivering F-16s to Egypt, Turkey and even South Korea when Britain wants an F-16 wing. The simple fact is Britain is America's closest military ally, and more important than even Israel, and whatever Britain wants it gets, even nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Interesting and thorough piece...well done...would be interested in seeing your take on things in 2000 when it’s done.

Just a couple of questions / comments...

1. Eurofighter. I appreciate there are a great many “what ifs” involved in conversations such as these, especially in a V1 timeline, however as far as I know IRL Eurofighters did not enter service until well into the 21st Century, so even with a continuing Cold war, I’m simply not sure how feasible it would be for any to be in general service circa 1996 / 1997? (Admittedly I do like the idea of the small number of test aircraft being rushed into service at some point).

2. F16’s in British service. I’ve seen this mentioned on the etranger site before. Interesting idea, particularly in a V1 timeline where there’s a need for something to replace the Phantom until such times as Eurofighter enters service. My only question here would be whether the US would be able to provide forty eight Falcons in 1996 when the Sino Soviet War is already in full swing and the USAF is presumably already mindful of its own possible needs in the event of a War. Perhaps a Falcon purchase would have been more likely earlier in the decade?

Also, for what it’s worth, I also think there would be an RAF presence in the Middle East. Jaguars for sure and most likely a fighter Squadron and a C130 detachment as well. I’m not sure about Harriers though...whilst I absolutely agree they’re a logical choice I think it depends on numbers....does the RAF of 1996 have enough to send some to the Gulf, or does the MEFF have to rely on the US for CAS?

1. While its true the Eurofighter didn't start serious testing until 2004, the prototype had its maiden flight in 1994, some ten years earlier. I would be certain that much of this delay was down to four countries arguing over what they wanted on their version of the Eurofighter, and who built what. The main stumbling blocks was over the radar. Basically the radar and the engine are largely British technology, despite the multi-national and ownership of the company that supposedly designed them. Britain and Germany are realy the two dominant partners, and without Italy and Spain squabbling over what work share they get, things could get done a lot quicker, particulary with a world war looming over the horizon. Certainly the Eurofighter of T2K is not a finished article, a lot of test-bed tech and gliches, but it can fly, and when things work it would be a very nasty surprise for the Red Air Force over Europe, and can be built in limited numbers into 1997.

2. Well I got the idea from Dan's RAF article on Etranger, but I don't see the problem. Basically the RAF Phantom's will get slaughtered by front line Soviet Su-27s and Mig-29s in Central Europe, and the Tornado F.3 is not a tactical fighter. America realy has a lot of F-16s and is still producing them right up until November 1997, and many would be already earmarked for service with the USAF in the same area that RAF F-16s would be operating in. Sending RAF Phantom pilots to the US and training them on F-16's is not a big issue, as the RAF pilots are hardly novices in the first place, and might represent better value for money to the USAF as the RAF pilots would be a lot better trained and experienced than the replacement Air National Guard F-16 pilots who would be sent over from 1997. Maybe some politics as well. We give you and F-16 wing, you send some of your own squadrons to the Middle East to back us up, or your carriers work the North Atlantic etc etc.

3. As far as I know I haven't listed any Harriers in the Middle East, although I sent a flight of older Harrier GR.5s to Hong Kong.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

2. Well I got the idea from Dan's RAF article on Etranger, but I don't see the problem.

I didn't see it as a problem either, it was really just more by way of a general comment / question. As I said, I actually find the idea interesting.

Originally Posted by RN7

3. As far as I know I haven't listed any Harriers in the Middle East, although I sent a flight of older Harrier GR.5s to Hong Kong.

Sorry, may be a crossed wire here...my comment about the RAF in the Middle East was my own suggested deployment - it wasn't intended to specifically refer to anyone else's (although it seems we're in agreement about about no Harriers to the Middle East...)