British Air Power in T2K

[Rainbow Six]

I believe there were 28 F16's intended for the Pakistani Air Force that were never delivered because of an embargo (the Pressler Amendment?) and ended up going from the factory at Fort Worth straight to storage at Davis Monthan AFB sometime in the early 90's?

Perhaps an arrangement was reached for the RAF to get those planes?

Just a thought...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I believe there were 28 F16's intended for the Pakistani Air Force that were never delivered because of an embargo (the Pressler Amendment?) and ended up going from the factory at Fort Worth straight to storage at Davis Monthan AFB sometime in the early 90's?

Perhaps an arrangement was reached for the RAF to get those planes?

Just a thought...

Anything is possible, but ac at the storage site tend to be stripped for parts or are pulled to replace operational/training losses. ANybody know how many are still left?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what I can gather, the F-16s ordered for Pakistan where not completely stripped back. At one point they were offered to New Zealand to replace the RNZAF's A4 Skyhawks and it was claimed that only a modest amount of work was needed to make them operational.
The deal was said to be particularly favourable towards New Zealand but the Helen Clark lead government decided that New Zealand didn't need fighter or attack aircraft and so the deal was dropped. New Zealand's loss.

[Rainbow Six]

There's a bit of detail about the embargoed Pakistani F16's here.

http://www.f16falcon.com/facts/f16_17.html

In summary, it appears that they initially ordered 71. Twenty eight were built and placed in storage, whilst the remainder were never built. As best as I can tell the planes that went in to in storage remained fully intact and operational whilst diplomatic wrangling went on over whether they would be a) delivered to the PAF as ordered or b) the Pakistanis got their money back.

Circa 1995 it was proposed that they be sold to other countries, with the proceeds going to the Pakistanis. Initial suggestions were Taiwan (17 aircraft) and the Phillipines (11 aircraft), however that fell through as did a proposed deal with New Zealand and IRL the planes were still in Arizona as of sometime in 2001 (I don't know what state they're in now).

I think it is, therefore, possible that the PAF F16's might have found their way into Royal Air Force service in a T2K World. One possible stumbling block might be that it appears they were relatively older models (A/B's) so not state of the art, however the RAF might have decided that older model F16's were a better option than aging Phantom FGR2's. Personally, I'm quite sold on the idea...

(And I'm sure if the RAF didn't take them, then someone would have done in the months leading up to the Twilight War - perhaps New Zealand as originally planned).

[RN7]

F-16C/D Block 40/42/50/52 production was...

F-16C/D Block 40/42
472: USA (1988-1992)
138: Egypt (1991-2002)
117: Turkey (1990-1995)
060: Israel (1991-1993)
022: Bahrain (1990-2000)
F-16C/D Block 50/52
264: USA (1991-2004)
140: South Korea (1994-2004)
070: Turkey (1996-1999)
064: Greece (1997-1998)
062. Singapore (1998-2002)

Production is on going to the USAF and export customers before and during the T2K period, at least up until the end of 1997. In 1996 its clear that a big war is looming, and the US government is going to have to decide who takes precedence in war production.

We can rule out Singapore as it didn't get F-16s till 1998, while the Greeks went commy and probably would have only recieved a dozen at most. The USAF and Israel are going to get what they want, but is the US going to keep delivering F-16s to Egypt, Turkey and even South Korea when Britain wants an F-16 wing. The simple fact is Britain is America's closest military ally, and more important than even Israel, and whatever Britain wants it gets, even nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by RN7

F-16C/D Block 40/42/50/52 production was...

F-16C/D Block 40/42
472: USA (1988-1992)
138: Egypt (1991-2002)
117: Turkey (1990-1995)
060: Israel (1991-1993)
022: Bahrain (1990-2000)
F-16C/D Block 50/52
264: USA (1991-2004)
140: South Korea (1994-2004)
070: Turkey (1996-1999)
064: Greece (1997-1998)
062. Singapore (1998-2002)

Production is on going to the USAF and export customers before and during the T2K period, at least up until the end of 1997. In 1996 its clear that a big war is looming, and the US government is going to have to decide who takes precedence in war production.

We can rule out Singapore as it didn't get F-16s till 1998, while the Greeks went commy and probably would have only recieved a dozen at most. The USAF and Israel are going to get what they want, but is the US going to keep delivering F-16s to Egypt, Turkey and even South Korea when Britain wants an F-16 wing. The simple fact is Britain is America's closest military ally, and more important than even Israel, and whatever Britain wants it gets, even nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

While I do acknowledge the special realitionship inbetween the US and the UK. Look at the strategic situation. With Greek and Turkey going at it, the US has always tended to favor Turkey to an extent, they are, after all, the USs oldest Middle Eastern ally. So the shipment of F-16s to Turkey, especially to counterbalance a communist Greece would go through.

South Korea, especially being so near to major Soviet air and naval bases, is another country bady needing modern aircraft. I feel a good argument could be made to dispatch F-16s to the ROKAF.

With Egypt, especially during this time frame, being very friendly to the US, as well as controlling the vital choke point of the Suez Canal and with the worsening situation in Iraq/Syria from the RDF Sourcebook might receive their F-16s, if only to help reinforce Saudi Arabia.

This would leave the Bahrain order and what was delivered of the Pakistan order (airframes pulled into depot level maintenance and brought up to C/D standards. With 22 on order and 28 on hand, this may give the RAF 2-3 squadrons to replace the Phantom force with.

But then there is the additional problem of a line in RDF concerning air battles with Iranian F-16s........

One really gets the idea that General Dynamics went to a 24/7 work week with four shifts running!

[JHart]

But then there is the additional problem of a line in RDF concerning air battles with Iranian F-16s......

Two options. Chalk it up as a typo and assume they meant F-14s, or F-16s where given to Iran by a nation that used them in exchange for something.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

But then there is the additional problem of a line in RDF concerning air battles with Iranian F-16s........

GDW was looking at something very old. Iran was originally going to be one of the first export customers for the F-16, but when Khomenei took over, the deal was nixed fast before the Iranians got any F-16s. Their order was going to be big, too -- they were repurposed to the USAF and some European countries.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

While I do acknowledge the special realitionship inbetween the US and the UK. Look at the strategic situation. With Greek and Turkey going at it, the US has always tended to favor Turkey to an extent, they are, after all, the USs oldest Middle Eastern ally. So the shipment of F-16s to Turkey, especially to counterbalance a communist Greece would go through.

South Korea, especially being so near to major Soviet air and naval bases, is another country bady needing modern aircraft. I feel a good argument could be made to dispatch F-16s to the ROKAF.

With Egypt, especially during this time frame, being very friendly to the US, as well as controlling the vital choke point of the Suez Canal and with the worsening situation in Iraq/Syria from the RDF Sourcebook might receive their F-16s, if only to help reinforce Saudi Arabia.

This would leave the Bahrain order and what was delivered of the Pakistan order (airframes pulled into depot level maintenance and brought up to C/D standards. With 22 on order and 28 on hand, this may give the RAF 2-3 squadrons to replace the Phantom force with.

But then there is the additional problem of a line in RDF concerning air battles with Iranian F-16s........

One really gets the idea that General Dynamics went to a 24/7 work week with four shifts running!

I don't think Iran ever got any F-16s in realy life or T2K. But certainly Turkey, Egypt and South Korea will continue to get US military supplies, but in the context of US priorities they are not going to be getting real world peacetime orders of F-16C Block 40/50s, which in T2K are going to go staight to frontline USAF squadrons and key allies. They might get a some F-16C's, but more likely will be offered refurbished F-16A's from the Air National Guard or even some F-4s and F5s.

Egypt, Turkey and South Korea are all important to the US in their own way, but in the context of America's relationship with Britain each of these countries are just not as important for a number of reasons.

Britain is an indepenent nuclear power with its own nuclear arsenal and nuclear weapons industry, and that on its own makes Britain a far more important ally.

Britain's military is of more importance and use to the US than either Turkey, Egypt or South Korea. Its ground and air forces are the key component of NORTHAG and the defence of Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway, and its mobile reactions forces are the best and largest of the European NATO countries. British air bases and British surveillance and communications resources are highly important to the US, and critically important to the US for the defence of Western Europe. Britain also has the second most powerful navy in the western world, with its own fleet of aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines, and at this time had the best anti-submarine warfare capability in the world. It would be of critical importance to the defence of US arms shipments and reinforcements across the Atlantic, and in destroying Soviet SSBNs.

Britain's military and intelligence community is far closer to America than Egypt and Turkey, and despite the large US commitment to the defence of South Korea, the Koreans don't have anywhere near the influence of Britain outside of the Far East or with Washington.

Britain is a permanent member of the UN Security Council and its relationship with Australia, Canada and New Zealand is probably even closer than their relations with the US. Britain also has close links with many African and Asian countries, and the nations of the Indian sub-Continent which transends East-West rivalry.

Britain has territories and military bases across the world which are important to the US, Gibraltar, Cyprus, Diego Garcia and Hong Kong, as well as others which are maybe of not so much importance such as Ascension Island, Bermuda, the Falklands etc.

Today and probably in the 1990's Britain had the second largest defence industry in the Western world after America. It can build and design everthing from its own fighter jets, to tanks and nuclear submarines, and along with France it is the least dependent on US technology. The defence industries and technology of Turkey and South Korea just don't compare, while Egypt's is non-discript.

[Legbreaker]

The US is involved in a multi-front shooting war against an opponent extremely well equipped for shooting down aircraft.

A pilot can eject and hopefully float gently to the ground and be recovered. A plane doesn't have a parachute - it can only crash.

Replacement planes will be needed desperately, even older models a little less capable than the ones the ejected pilots are used to flying.

Nobody is getting any F-16s (or any other combat aircraft) except the USAF and / or Navy / USMC. Other countries will have to fend for themselves.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

This would leave the Bahrain order and what was delivered of the Pakistan order (airframes pulled into depot level maintenance and brought up to C/D standards. With 22 on order and 28 on hand, this may give the RAF 2-3 squadrons to replace the Phantom force with.

That sounds like a reasonable idea to me. As a minor nitpick, perhaps it would be better to happen in 1995 than 1996? (As I've said already, I see no problem with the RAF operating F16's. I just question the timescale - I'm not sure how much time it would take to train an entire Wing's air and ground crews on a new aircraft that they have never flown / worked on before)

[Panther Al]

Actually, I can see the F16 getting shopped around to other Air Forces, even when the shooting starts. Not the others, like the 15's, and 14's, even the 18's, though that is a maybe.

The F16 was designed, along with the FA18, to be simple, cheap, and easy to build, they wasn't supposed to be overly complex aircraft. The FA18 pushes that envelope, but isn't near as complex as either a F14 or F15. I can't recall where, but I remember it being said that with the F16 that during the design process there was a good deal of effort to build in a capability to be produced in immense numbers in a wartime situation. So, given the slow build up to war, then the warmup act over in China, I can easily see GD and Lockmark being tapped to really ramp up production.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

That sounds like a reasonable idea to me. As a minor nitpick, perhaps it would be better to happen in 1995 than 1996? (As I've said already, I see no problem with the RAF operating F16's. I just question the timescale - I'm not sure how much time it would take to train an entire Wing's air and ground crews on a new aircraft that they have never flown / worked on before)

Perphaps six months to a year for most countries, but I'd go with six month for the RAF guys. I'd say training the pilots would be the easier task and there are plenty of USAF F-16 units stationed in Europe.