The Military Deployments of T2K

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Eighth US Army

II Amphibious Corps
3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

Just some thoughts.

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

[HorseSoldier]

14th ACR was, I believe, the last active duty ACR on the books besides the ones everyone is familiar with (when 11th ACR's colors came out of Vietnam, 14th ACR in Europe was reflagged as 11th).

Personally, I'd scrap VI Corps entirely and put all the troops in theater under II Corps and II MAF. Army units can serve under USMC higher headquarters and vice versa without drama, has been happening regularly since way before the current modularity vogue.

I can't see 3rd MarDiv going to Korea -- the war is won or lost based on possession of Middle Eastern oil. If the North Korean screaming hordes overrun South Korea and do a lemming job right on into the ocean it really means very little in the big picture, but Soviet airborne forces dropping on Riyadh means folks in Iowa either start learning the words to Internationale or the war goes very nuclear very quick to stave off inevitable defeat.

In addition, there's unlikely to be any rush to saturate Korea with foreign forces in terms of the circumstances anyway. On full mobilization the ROKA fields something like 40 divisions in the Twilight timeline, with all the bells and whistles of Corps/Army assets and SOF units. As I've stated previously, 2nd Korean War won't be a replay of the 1st War, and the North Koreans won't be rolling hellbent for leather for Pusan with the only hope being US or UN forces. With the Russians churning through China they're not going to be able to spare large concentrations to help the North Koreans until China completely collapses (and even then their hands will be tied to an extent holding anything they try to keep).

A reinforcing role for US/UN forces would likely only come into play if the plan was to go over onto the offensive against the DPRK, with at least some intent to change the Chinese/Russian equation and pull some Russian troops off the Chinese. This only matters at all after the Middle East is secured and if Europe is relatively stable.

It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

I think that was mentioned in the Challenge article about Canada, with a brigade group being readied for service in Korea getting diverted to Alaska. I don't see Canada going in for a two front war with the dual burden of battle casualty replacements for Europe and bringing their reserves into a workable state. And, in a universe where the Soviets have the capability to actually mount an invasion of Alaska, a Canadian brigade group being opconned to USARAK seems rather more likely than lobbing them across the Pacific to Korea.

[Legbreaker]

Currently Australia has only two Divisions, with the 2nd made up of about 99% reservists and the 1st about 30% (give or take). Neither is intended to be deployed as a whole.
9 BDE could have been sent to Korea even though likely needed at home to defend against Indonesian landing efforts in an attempt to bring the US on board at least diplomatically (yes, I am aware of the ANZUS treaty obligations) - the US teetering on the bring of abandoning the treaty due to their entanglement on multiple pre-existing fronts (Europe, Korea, Middle East). 9 BDE may have freed up US assets more suited to the tropics than the Australian brigade (perhaps a few warships, a squadron of fighters, etc).

It's a stretch I know, but I like the idea of Australians involved in both rounds of the Korean War. The Koreans make fairly good substitute Russians too for those back home interested in the idea of payback for nuking the world.

I don't know much about the New Zealand military, however my thoughts are they are more likely to be involved against Indonesia than Korea (ANZUS treaty obligations). Their FV101 Scorpions would prove a match against the fairly light armour of the Indonesians but chewed up and spat out by North Korean T-55s.

[atiff]

I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

Andrew

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by atiff

I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

Andrew

I remember reading in a Infantry Journal that New Zealand's commitment to Korea was a infantry company and a artillery battery, to be attached to a Australian deployment, this was back in 76/77...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by atiff

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Hmm, I'm thinking the NZ Battalion would replace one of the two Australian infantry battalions in the Korea brigade with the personel of the 2nd Australian battalion rolled over into the first to make up numbers....

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Hmm, I'm thinking the NZ Battalion would replace one of the two Australian infantry battalions in the Korea brigade with the personel of the 2nd Australian battalion rolled over into the first to make up numbers....

Sounds reasonable. Where Australia goes New Zealand also tends to go, with a smaller troop commitment commensurate with its smaller military.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.

Silly 18th Airborne Corps...Funny how lot of their support were called 18th..... You would think since I posted at Fort Bragg I would remember this, oh wait a minute I was off Division land. It is strange how Corps, Division, and Special Forces were separated by common uniform...lol

Yeah about III Corps it funny that in the States it had 4 Armor Division (2 posing as Mechanized Divisions, with only 2 Divisions having full compliment of units on active duty with these having one Brigade each Forward Deployed) with one Mechanized Division. Yeah I know two of these Division were due to go to the V and VII Corps once they got over there and their equipment. The thing is when the III Corps was fully over there the US Army Europe would have 3 Corps with each with 2 Armor Divisions, 1 Mechanized Division, 1 Armor Cavalry Regiment, and 1 Aviation Brigade of some type.

Another thing I find ironic is that the 3rd Armor and 1st Cavalry were set up with 3 Armor Brigades instead of 2 Armor and 1 Mechanized Brigades.

Like I said, the 194th and 197th as well as the two Brigades from the 24th Mechanized Division would be sent in place of the Round Out Brigades and these Brigades would be used to make other units.

Much like part of the plan with Light Infantry Division was to ship out new Infantry Brigades thrown together at Benning from the Infantry School paired up with other Artillery and Support units to help bring these Divisions up to manpower requirements.

*Shrug*

[dragoon500ly]

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.

Yeah, it was one of those things seeing what GDW had publish, what was actually in the Army OOB at the time, even until after 1991 makes one wonder if something had happen where the US wasn't fighting on two fronts, but several more, where they would come up with the manpower to do so...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

...where they would come up with the manpower to do so...

Conscription. Lots and lots of conscription.
Post nuke the military may even be seen by many as the one sure way of putting food in your belly. You might find many, many volunteers post nuke both for this and paying back the "Reds" for nuking their friends and families.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Considering that the 1st Cavalry and 2nd Armored were organized per the pure Division 86 configuration, that is 6 armd and 4 mech battalions. The intent was to have two tank heavy brigades (2 and 1) and one balanced brigade (2 and 2).

Both divisions, along with the 1st and 4th Mechanized Divisions badly needed the roundout brigades, but even the most conservative estimate had them not ready for 30-60 days; so the feeding in of the 194th Armd, 197th Mech into the two armored divisions made plenty of sense.

The "German" divisions; 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions, 3rd and 8th (and the old 4th) Mechanized Infantry Divisions used a modified TO&E. For the armored divisions it was six armored and 5 mech battalions and for the mech divisions it was the exact opposite.

I thought at the time the 1st Mechanized was much like the 2nd Armored with 1 Brigade Forward Deployed with the remainder of the Division at Fort Riley, KS.

Yeah we GDW had all active heavy units listed 6-5 scale if I recall correctly...*Shrug* Then again it didn't help that the 1st and 4th Mechanized were more or less Armored Divisions.

[Abbott Shaull]

I have always been interested in the speculated deployments of places like Hungary, Austria, Czech, and other Pact Nations in more detail. I never got around to purchase the Eastern Europe Sourcebook. Gee wonder why they never made on for Korea... *shrug* or for that matter sundry places like Scandinavia/Iceland/Greenland, Canada/Alaska, South Pacific, anything Africa, or anything south of the US Border...lol

Even Balkan region with Italy, Greece, Turkey, Romanian, and such would of been nice to have. Or one dealing with Spain and Portugal with maybe France would of been nice. Even the Baltic States, Ukraine, and Georgia with some of her more interesting neighbors would have been nice. India Sub continent and China would of been treasures too. I know it seems like lot of material, but for how fast they were cranking this stuff out, and the thing they alluded too, would have made the game more complete in my opinion...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

I thought at the time the 1st Mechanized was much like the 2nd Armored with 1 Brigade Forward Deployed with the remainder of the Division at Fort Riley, KS.

Yeah we GDW had all active heavy units listed 6-5 scale if I recall correctly...*Shrug* Then again it didn't help that the 1st and 4th Mechanized were more or less Armored Divisions.

1st MID had their 3rd Brigade forward deployed to VII Corps, it was a 2-n-1 mix. But the war role of 1st MID had it going to III Corps with its role in NORTHAG...I always heard that 3rd Brigade would be chopped to 3rd MID, so that would leave a two brigade division up north...hence the talk of cross-attaching 194th/197th or a yet to be named NG Brigade.

[Legbreaker]

12/40 RTR might be the better unit to stay on with 10/27 RSAR being split up.
Why? Basically because 12/40 has more people on the books than 10/27.